Abkhazia

[u/Damon986]

Yesterday, I read a Reddit post from an Abkhazian who seemed quite optimistic about the independence of his “country.” I’m genuinely curious — do Abkhazians really believe in such a bright future? If yes, what gives you that confidence? I’d really like to understand your perspective. I’ll also be happy to share my own view on how I think things are likely to unfold.

To be honest, I don’t see Abkhazia becoming an independent state under any circumstances. There are three possible futures: 1. You continue to exist as an unrecognized state under full Russian control. If Russia becomes too weakened by the West, Georgia will simply take back the land by force—land that belongs to us according to international law. 2. Through negotiations (with Russia, not Abkhazia), Abkhazia becomes an autonomous region within Georgia. 3. You become a region of Russia.

That’s the only future I see. I’m saying this without anger—just as I see it.

And I will add — even if no one intervened and you somehow became an independent (but still unrecognized) state, how would you survive? Your entire economy relies on Russian support. You almost literally froze to death without Russian electricity. You can’t build an economy, because you’d need to borrow money to develop anything — and no one gives loans to an unrecognized state.

[u/LividBumblebee6873]

Hello there. The reason why I believe in independent Abkhazian state is because I believe it can work. It has the land, the people, the potential and the will to make it happen. It is hard for me to explain it, but good part of my opinion is derived from the world around. I see many states that were destined to be successful, that has everything going for them. Resources, geography geopolitical situation, but failed in one way or another and now barely work. Other states literarly pulled themself from the rubble and now are prospering while they didn't start from the best position.

The greatest problem Abkhazia is facing, as it would be for any country, is isolation. That will be hard to improve, taking into account geopolitical situation, and I'm sceptical it will be ever resolved entierly. For now, Abkhazia needs money.

You mentioned energy infrastructure and reliance on financial assistance which is a very valid point. However those things can be fixed. If Russia completely ceases to send it money it will be an extreme hit. Espetialy if done from day to day. But its dependency on Russian aid is not so total as for example in South Ossetia. Electricity infrastructure Is severely degraded, but exists And can be repaired if given proper investment And time. Abkhazia have its sea, its tourism sector, is agriculture, natural resources as timber or coal. Those things can generate a sufficient revenue if correctly maniged.

Abkhazia is dependent on Russia precisely because it is in need of ally and Russia gives it open market for its goods and military muscle as deterent. And because Georgia is actively trying to isolate it from any foreign relations. To be honest it is very difficult for any country of this size and in this kind of neighborhood to be entirely independent.

To Rem it up. States Are forged by the people who run them. Those people can turn a success and failure and vice versa. And even if you may find it ridicule, hope and faith in once destiny play as much of an important role as anything else. I dont know if Abkhazia will ever be a UN member state with demokracy and booming economy independent from anyone. But only when people stop trying and hoping only then will they truly fail to succeed.

I Hope you have a good day

[u/Damon986 → u/LividBumblebee6873]

I completely understand your belief in Abkhazia’s potential — and I agree that willpower and national identity are important elements. But when it comes to real-world independence, especially in a globalized 21st-century context, hope must be backed by sustainable systems — political, economic, legal, and infrastructural. And unfortunately, that’s exactly where Abkhazia struggles most.

You mentioned tourism as a key pillar of potential revenue. On paper, yes, Abkhazia has a beautiful coastline and nature that could attract visitors. But in practice, almost all of its tourism is domestic — and almost entirely from Russia. This isn’t sustainable growth — it’s a closed circuit. Without international recognition, Abkhazia can’t welcome tourists from the broader world through legal channels. No major airlines fly there. No international travel insurance covers it. Western citizens risk violating Georgian law just by entering. That’s not a tourism industry — that’s a limited side hustle with a hard ceiling.

Agriculture is another sector you mentioned. While Abkhazia does have arable land, agriculture alone doesn’t support modern economies — especially without access to export markets, reliable logistics infrastructure, or investment in technology and distribution. Even if crops are grown successfully, who buys them? And how do they leave the region without internationally accepted trade channels? That’s a massive barrier.

As for natural resources like timber and coal, these are often thrown around as economic lifelines, but they rarely are — especially in regions without oversight or regulation. Timber and coal markets are already competitive, globalized, and heavily regulated. Abkhazia can’t legally export to the EU or most countries due to its political status. Plus, unchecked logging has already caused environmental damage in the region, and the profits go through informal or Russian channels — not into building an independent economy.

Even if we assume these sectors improve with time and investment — where is that investment coming from? Certainly not the West. Russia’s economic support has been declining, and even they have limits. China isn’t recognizing Abkhazia. There is no major foreign partner with both the capacity and willingness to help build a fully functioning state.

And as you rightly mentioned, isolation is the core issue — and it’s not accidental. It’s the result of international law, unresolved conflict, and the simple fact that Abkhazia’s “independence” was achieved through war, displacement, and is not internationally recognized. These are not things the world forgets easily.

In the end, belief is not enough to build a country. Real independence isn’t about having land or potential — it’s about having sovereignty that’s respected, an economy that functions, and a state that engages with the world. And right now, Abkhazia has none of those things — and no clear path to get them.

[u/LividBumblebee6873 → u/Damon986]

Thank you for your response. I in essence agree with all your scepticism. 

Abkhazia is in very difficult situation. While some aspects as international recognition is out of its hands and there is little it can do to change it, the leadership of the country itself is not without blame eather. Coruption remains a problem and some things such as previously mentioned electricity grid, should have been solved long time ago. Russian aid itself has created some problems, as it creates a dependency, rather than sustainable development in the region. Still I am optimistic. Over past 20 years, country saw a good deal of economic improvement compared to the 1990s and early 2000s. Despite Abkhazians status as partially recognized state, it does maintain trade with countries that don't recognize it. This trade Is minor compared to the one with Russia, but proves it can be working.

If I were to make a suggestions to the government, I would do this.

immediately fix Gal cascade hydro power plant. 

Reduce dependency on Russian aid in state workers salaries. 

Improve methods in taxing sistem and its oversight. 

At least more parrtial diversification of trade with other states. Including Turkey, midle estern states, Belarus, Central Asia states, or even Georgia.

Explore options of further political And diplomatic ties with countries opposed the the current world order. 

Strengthen ties with Turkey. For example reopen maritime connection between those two. Or perhaps recognize TRNC.

Expand agricultural production.

In my opinion the best thing for Abkhazia right now, from what you listed, Is to continue the status quo And strengthen state structures.

[u/Damon986 → u/LividBumblebee6873]

Thank you for your response — it’s thoughtful, and far more realistic than the usual nationalist noise. But since you value honesty, let’s be brutally honest.

You’re right that international recognition is out of Abkhazia’s hands — but so is almost everything else. What you describe as “partial independence” or “status quo” is, in practice, nothing more than a prolonged state of limbo, completely dependent on Russia for survival. Independence isn’t just about waving a flag or printing your own stamps — it’s about being able to stand on your own feet. And Abkhazia isn’t even crawling.

You mentioned corruption, weak institutions, power outages, and decaying infrastructure — but those aren’t isolated issues. They are symptoms of a non-functional state. Even basic tasks like maintaining electricity, collecting taxes, or paying salaries depend on Russia’s generosity — which is less generosity and more leverage.

You say Russian aid has caused dependency. That’s an understatement. It has turned Abkhazia into a client territory, not a country. Most citizens have Russian passports, the ruble is the currency, the military is Russian, and even your so-called “president” can’t sneeze without Moscow’s approval.

And the idea that Abkhazia has trade with non-recognizing countries? Be serious. Selling mandarins to a Turkish middleman in Batumi through informal channels is not “international trade.” It’s survival-level economics — and barely that.

Recognizing TRNC? Aligning with North Korea, Syria, or Venezuela? That’s not foreign policy — that’s desperation. Those regimes can’t help themselves, let alone lift Abkhazia out of stagnation.

You suggest continuing the “status quo.” Let me ask: what status quo?

– A shrinking population, especially among youth? – A crippled economy living off Russian pensions and military bases? – A reputation as a ghost state, recognized only by failed regimes and distant islands no one can find on a map? – Being remembered internationally only for one thing: ethnic cleansing?

That’s not a status quo. That’s political purgatory, dressed up with the language of “sovereignty.”

The cruel irony is: Abkhazia could’ve had a future — one with autonomy, development, dignity, and real international integration. But instead, it chose to become a garrison for someone else’s empire, mistaking occupation for freedom.

So yes, make reforms. Fix the hydro plant. Improve tax collection. Great ideas. But without legitimacy, without reintegration into a larger international framework — be it Georgia or some other solution — you’re rearranging furniture on a sinking ship.

Optimism is fine. But blind optimism in a failed structure isn’t hope — it’s delusion.

[u/Salt_Lynx270 → u/Damon986]

And the idea that Abkhazia has trade with non-recognizing countries? Be serious.

I mean, Taiwan (ROC) is recognized by 11 countries (the same distant islands no one can find of a map mostly) and doesn't really feel any problems in trading... It depends on more factors, like what you can export, whether it's something unique or important etc:)

[u/LividBumblebee6873 → u/Damon986]

I respect how you see it. We both clearly see the same thing, but with difference in our interpretation. While you see it as lost cause, I see the possibilities it have. I don't realy think I will change your opinion on it, however I am glad you are willing to listen. You asked how I see the future and why so, and you got my answer.  I mostly think the people are masters of their fate. If most of them decide Independence is the way and are willing to struggle for it, I am all for it. It have been sought for a long time. Even if it brings lower standart of living, insecurity, limitation... That is the path that was chossen. It may not seem to be logical to you. Why would someone suffer for lost cause? But look, who would think Chin ghis khan from middle of frozen step would build a Mongol empire. Or that all mighty Roman empire would ever fall. Or that little San marino woundn't be absorber by much larger Italy in Its unification? I don't dare to claim 100% independent Abkhazia will be on the world map. I saw fall of Karabakh. Yet as long as there is hope and something that can be done to impruve it, I won't stop being an optimist.

I hope that explains it for you

[u/No-Calligrapher6399]

Сашьцәа , идҳарбап аԥсуара захьӡу , ҳзеиԥшро , ауаҩра шҳало

[u/RitsaKudjba → u/No-Calligrapher6399]

Сгәаанагарала, абри амри абрантәи иқәцара аамҭа ааит

[u/izigai → u/No-Calligrapher6399]

Ҳара ҳзыҟоу ҳауп!

Араҟа аԥсуаа рхыԥхьаӡара маҷзаргьы, Кекельцәа р-"аргументациа" агәаҭара иаҿагылом, уи џьашьатәӡам. Аҵабырг узҿагылаша мчыуп :3

[u/Damon986 → u/No-Calligrapher6399]

Ah, the „abkazhian“ language — a timeless treasure of ancient heritage… that just happened to need four different alphabets in under a century. Very stable.

First Cyrillic, then Latin, then Georgian (how ironic), then back to Cyrillic again — because clearly, nothing screams “deep-rooted identity” like flipping your alphabet every time the Kremlin sneezes.

And let’s not forget the real poetic touch — the proud moment in the 1930s when „abkazhian“ had to borrow the Georgian script. Imagine the cultural pride! Writing your “independent” national language in the letters of the people you now call occupiers. Beautiful contradiction, really.

But hey, credit where it’s due — while most nations spent centuries building literary traditions, you had Soviet engineers redesigning your alphabet like it was a tractor manual.

So yes, cherish your mother tongue. Just remember: it was less a gift from your ancestors, and more a group project with Stalin’s linguists, Georgian fonts, and Moscow’s approval.

[u/RitsaKudjba → u/Damon986]

Borrow georgian script? It was imposed during Georgianization era

[u/Damon986 → u/RitsaKudjba]

Oh, absolutely — it was ‘imposed’ during the so-called Georgianization era. Because nothing says cultural respect like forcing a whole people to use your script, language, and textbooks under political pressure.

But here’s the irony: now, after decades of changing alphabets every time political winds shifted, you claim that borrowed Georgian script as part of your ‘heritage.’ Convenient how what was once a tool of assimilation now becomes a badge of identity when it suits the narrative.**

In the end, it just shows how the ‘Abkazhian’ language story is less about ancient roots and more about surviving—and adapting—through whoever was in power

[u/hazeleyesfox → u/Damon986]

Really? This is said by a Georgian whose alphabet was written and created by an Armenian. Both the spelling of the letters and their order were created by an Armenian. I am not even talking about the pronunciation, which is identical to the Armenian language. May Mesrop Mashtots rest in peace! His works live on, albeit without the respect they deserve! The alphabet is a way to transfer language to paper, not the foundation of language.

[u/Damon986 → u/hazeleyesfox]

Oh, absolutely! Because obviously, the entire Georgian language and culture is just a carbon copy of Armenian, right? I mean, who needs thousands of years of unique history, literature, and traditions when you can just borrow an alphabet and call it a day? Genius!

And sure, the pronunciation is totally identical—just like French and English, or Russian and Japanese. Because linguistics clearly bow to your logic.

Yes, let’s all bow down to Mesrop Mashtots—the great inventor—because apparently, a few shared letters means the entire language and culture don’t exist independently. Brilliant argument. Next, you’ll tell me pizza was invented in France.

But hey, you’re right about one thing: alphabets are just tools to slap letters on paper. The real foundation is the language itself—and Georgian is alive, kicking. So, cheers to Mesrop Mashtots, but don’t forget to give credit where it’s actually due.

[u/Grouchy_Detective880 → u/hazeleyesfox]

This is said by a Georgian whose alphabet was written and created by an Armenian

Stupid fact spread by people who hate Georgia or have some complexes. There is archaeological evidence that is against this + Order of letters + Another Armenian historian who lived in the same century wrote that "Armenian" created only Armenian.

However, I won't write much about it as you won't believe in it anyway. I see living in the world of fake history is better for you

[u/Grouchy_Detective880 → u/Grouchy_Detective880]

Oh, and please don't forget that after this "Armenian", we created two more alphabets:)

[u/RitsaKudjba → u/Grouchy_Detective880]

"Stole"

[u/Grouchy_Detective880 → u/RitsaKudjba]

"Stole" from who?:) Because, of course, there are a lot of people around the globe we can steal from:)

[u/Damon986 → u/Grouchy_Detective880]

They live in another universe, otherwise I can’t tell from where they took this information 🙃

[u/Damon986 → u/[deleted]]

Every single word are true my friend, if not feel comfortable to bring your proofs (from deep part of your imagination)

[u/Damon986 → u/[deleted]]

Proof that the so-called ‘Abkazhian’ language’s history is more about ancient roots and less about political shifts and imposed scripts. If you have evidence to the contrary, I’m all ears

[u/Some-Basket-4299 → u/Damon986]

It seems your mother tongue is ChatGPT? 

[u/Damon986 → u/Some-Basket-4299]

Yes, and just like Abkhazian, it was proudly invented between a coffee break and a committee meeting.

[u/Critical_Top3117 → u/Damon986]

Wow, that’s exactly why. You reap what you sow. Do you understand that you sound like Russian typical Russian patriot, explaining that there was never any such thing as Ukrainian language, it’s just broken Russian?

[u/sivispacemparabellu]

“Georgia will simply take back the land by force.”

Yes I remember how it was a piece of cake for the mighty Georgian army when they tried that at the beginin of 90’s. :)

[u/lasha4433 → u/sivispacemparabellu]

notice how he mentioned "after russia gets weakend" when georgians tried taking back the land in the beggining of the 90's russia was by abkhazia's side and also the saddest thing is that they only helped you for more control over the black sea promising independence which theyre gonna quickly annex if any war strikes out between russia and georgia and per chance russia wins.

[u/e2g3]

The fact is: Abkahzians are not Georgians or Sakrrvelians. They are Abazians, a different caucasian people.

[u/Damon986 → u/e2g3]

So you are telling me, that all countries borders must be drawn according to ethnicity map?😂

[u/e2g3 → u/Damon986]

They were drawn. But Stalin moved around 30k Sakartvelian settlers to Apsny

[u/ObjectiveSpecific752]

If you truly want to understand the Abkhaz perspective, start with realizing that Abkhazia isn't just a pawn between Russia and Georgia. International law is not a sacred text, it's shaped by politics. Claiming it belongs to you just because of that is foolish.
Right, we don't have the best economy and we are dependant on Russia. But what makes you think that the alternative for this is Georgia? You think you are giving us a ''realistic'' outcome but you ignore the fact that most Abkhazians would rather side with Russia than Georgia.
Also weakening Russia and take it by force? Let's be real. Georgia has its own internal issues and dependance on foreign aid. You are talking like Russia is some nation you can just weaken like that. Even your government is pro-Russian.
Lastly and respectfully, about your view, your stance on this topic is very obvious.

[u/Damon986 → u/ObjectiveSpecific752]

1. Being a “pawn” isn’t just a narrative—it’s a result of dependency. You yourself mentioned that Abkhazia is economically and politically dependent on Russia. That kind of dependency limits real sovereignty. Can a region truly call itself independent if its survival relies entirely on a foreign power?
   1. The difference between aid is that, for Georgia, it’s not crucial for survival. Georgia has challenges, but it can function on its own. Abkhazia, on the other hand, would collapse without Russian support—financially, politically, and militarily. That’s not independence; that’s reliance.
   2. You say Russia can’t be weakened—really? Do you believe the war in Ukraine is making Russia stronger? It’s quite the opposite. Russia is losing international influence, facing economic collapse, and stretching its military thin. It’s not about Georgia defeating Russia—it’s about how Russia’s long-term decline will affect those who depend on it.
   3. International law may not be sacred, but global interests matter. Between Georgia and Abkhazia, the international community will always prefer to build diplomatic and economic relations with Georgia—a recognized sovereign state with growing international ties. Abkhazia simply doesn’t offer that potential.
   4. Saying most Abkhazians prefer Russia doesn’t justify the situation. That “preference” comes after years of isolation, propaganda, and fear—not real choice. With limited access to global information, movement, or alternatives, how can we talk about genuine public opinion?
   5. Georgia’s internal issues don’t erase Abkhazia’s isolation. Georgia still has access to global markets, international support, and a future. Abkhazia remains cut off, stagnant, and stuck in limbo—entirely dependent on a declining Russia.

Lastly, respectfully—accusing someone of having an “obvious stance” while defending a deeply one-sided position isn’t helpful for real dialogue. The real issue isn’t choosing sides—it’s whether Abkhazia can have a future beyond dependence, blackouts, and isolation.

[u/Grouchy_Detective880 → u/ObjectiveSpecific752]

International law is not a sacred text, it's shaped by politics.

Changing international laws isn't quite easy. Moreover, I can't imagine the sequence of political events that leads to the independence of Abkhazia.

it's shaped by politics. Claiming it belongs to you just because of that is foolish.

But what is the reason for you telling that it belongs to you?

[u/Vadirom → u/Grouchy_Detective880]

I mean you literally looking at Kosovo becoming an "independent" country literally populated by Kosovars(aka albanians).Northern Cyprus is still there and Turkey is still Nato member with 0 sanctions:).Syria is literally led by ex Al-qaeda member who was on USA wanted list with 10 millions reward. International laws is nothing now...

[u/Damon986 → u/Vadirom]

I get your point — the international system isn’t perfect, and yes, there are inconsistencies. But the examples you brought up actually prove how difficult and rare true independence is — not the opposite.

Let’s take Kosovo. It’s recognized by over 100 UN member states, including the US and most of the EU. It has a central bank, a functioning government, holds international agreements, has access to global financial systems, and even participates in international sports and forums. Whether people agree with its independence or not, Kosovo exists with support, recognition, and institutional legitimacy. That’s a completely different reality from Abkhazia, which is recognized by 5 states — most of which are either Russia or Russian client states.

Northern Cyprus is another good example — not of success, but of limbo. It’s been around for 40 years and still has zero international recognition outside of Turkey. It has no access to global markets, no diplomatic representation, and its development is fully dependent on Turkish support. It survives, but it hasn’t “succeeded.” It’s a frozen conflict — not a model of functioning independence.

As for Syria, yes, it’s led by a regime that has committed war crimes and survived through sheer brutality and Russian/Iranian backing. But it’s still internationally recognized as Syria — meaning it didn’t break away from anything. Its legitimacy, no matter how controversial, is tied to the fact that it is still the recognized state — not a separatist entity.

Saying “international law means nothing now” ignores the real power structures in the world. Recognition is political — yes — but without it, you don’t get trade deals, loans, infrastructure funding, diplomatic representation, international flights, investment protections, or global partnerships. You don’t get peacekeepers or reconstruction assistance. You just don’t exist in the real sense of a modern state.

So sure — you can survive in isolation with help from a bigger patron, like Northern Cyprus or South Ossetia. But that’s not true independence. That’s dependency under a different name.

[u/ObjectiveSpecific752 → u/Grouchy_Detective880]

Are you really asking why Abkhazia belongs to ABKHAZIANS?

[u/lazarusss_ → u/ObjectiveSpecific752]

if you say so we have up to 300 K refugees from Abkhazia and those people are Abkhazians who lost their homes, and i can surely say that 100% of them know what abkhazia truly represents.

[u/Damon986 → u/ObjectiveSpecific752]

From a Georgian perspective, Abkhazia has always been part of Georgia’s historic and sovereign territory. It’s important to remember that many Georgians have lived there for centuries, contributing to the region’s culture and history. So, the question of who Abkhazia belongs to isn’t only about ethnicity—it’s about history, the people who lived there, and international law. That’s why Georgia and most of the world recognize Abkhazia as part of Georgia.

[u/[deleted] → u/Damon986]

No. "Georgian Perspective" changed during and after the war. Most Georgians in East did not even know anything about Abkhazia or Abkhazians.

[u/Grouchy_Detective880 → u/ObjectiveSpecific752]

And why do you think you are THAT ABKHAZIANS Abkhazia belongs to?

Are you sure you - Апсуа, as you call yourself in your native language, are true Abkhazians?

[u/ObjectiveSpecific752 → u/Grouchy_Detective880]

Lol I thought you left this propoganda behind. A lot of Georgians will agree with me.

[u/Grouchy_Detective880 → u/ObjectiveSpecific752]

A lot of Georgians will agree with me.

Yes, a lot of Georgians (and me too) will agree with you that Abkhazia belongs to Abkhazians, but I am not sure that we all here accept same definition of Abkhazians

Lol I thought you left this propoganda behind.

What is exactly propaganda?

[u/[deleted] → u/Grouchy_Detective880]

International Law might favor Abkhazia's Independence though. The only reason is politics not justice.

[u/Grouchy_Detective880 → u/[deleted]]

I think I have some assumptions, however I don't know which international law you are talking about and I would like to know

[u/Ill-Surprise-2644 → u/[deleted]]

International law might favour Abkkhazian independence, but Russia won't. Good luck trying to get that past them. Russia is happy with Abkhazia's vassal/mafia state status. If anyone pushes for independence, expect the Russians to start offing people. Don't belive me? Look at the "DPR" and "LPR". Same playbook.

[u/lazarusss_ → u/ObjectiveSpecific752]

International law is not a sacred text

there are so many arguments but I want to underline this one. you are right it varies sometimes but actually in this exact context it is quite sacred as you say. if you take a look on wider scale youll find out that it is not only just little part will become independent, it is about setting precedent than anything else. if that exception will occur, the next day will be the day when tons of war begin (I mean like china would likely invade in taiwan, USA would start wars with mexico etc). if you think it is all just fake drama consider that, it is not coincidental that no new countries or legally independent teritories created after UN which declared the word teritories back then (I dont mean breakingup ussr and colonies when new countries created because those countries were initially considered). So being abkhazia as independent legally is not probable or if it is, it means some huge shit is gonna happen in world or would have happened already.

[u/NoAdministration9472 → u/ObjectiveSpecific752]

Even your government is pro-Russian.

It's not pro-Russian, they are simply not stupid enough to be hostile to Russia like some Georgian Nationalists in the past.

[u/ObjectiveSpecific752 → u/NoAdministration9472]

I think Georgians are hostile to Russia though.

[u/NoAdministration9472 → u/ObjectiveSpecific752]

Depends, some of the Boomers are not, those that witnessed and experienced the war in 2008 are.

[u/ObjectiveSpecific752 → u/NoAdministration9472]

EU process was going good for them. Sliding back to Russia is kinda weird after all that but yeah ig

[u/No-Calligrapher6399]

Do you know why Abkhazia and Russia have such close ties? Because we have only two neighboring states, and only Russia has recognized us and maintains relations with us.If Georgia and then Türkiye recognized us,then the economy of Abkhazia is also divided into relations with these countries

[u/Damon986 → u/No-Calligrapher6399]

Yes, we know exactly why Abkhazia and Russia have close ties — because Russia is the only country willing to recognize and sustain a separatist region militarily and financially, not out of love, but because it benefits Moscow’s strategic interests, not yours.

Let’s be real: If Turkey or Georgia were to recognize Abkhazia, it wouldn’t mean independence — it would mean they’ve surrendered their own territorial integrity or regional leverage. That’s not going to happen. And let’s not pretend Russia’s recognition came from some deep respect for Abkhaz sovereignty — it came right after the 2008 war, as a geopolitical move to punish Georgia and cement military presence on the Black Sea.

You say Abkhazia’s economy is dependent on Russia because only Russia recognizes you. That’s true — and it’s also the point. You’ve been boxed into a corner where Russia is both your savior and your captor. No international trade, no banking, no real investment — just subsidies and stagnation.

If Abkhazia truly wanted diversified relations, it would be pushing for negotiations, confidence-building, and international engagement, not locking itself into one patron that’s actively isolating it from the world.

In short: Yes, you have only two neighbors. But you’ve burned the bridge with one and chained yourself to the other — and now call that independence.

[u/testni_nalog → u/Damon986]

But what exactly is your point? What makes an independence viable? Why is Kosovo more viable than Abkhazia? All of its accessible routes to Western Europe go through Serbia, it has no economy. And absolutely no one in Kosovo wants to be independent, Albanians want to be independent of Serbia, sure, bit would join Albania in about 0.01 seconds afte the US gives its OK. Hows that a more viable independent state than Abkhazia?

If you think Abkhazia is too small, what makes Georgia (or Serbia) viable? Historically speaking amd no offense to anyone theae states (or collections of feudal states) were only independent when powerful neighbours needed buffers OR when powerul neighbours simultaneouslyhad internal issues to deal with (so could not project power).

[u/No-Calligrapher6399 → u/Damon986]

You distort reality by keeping silent about many historical facts. Speaking only from the position of fear of Russia. The Georgian-Abkhazian war began in 1992. And remind me who brought in troops under the pretext of protecting the railway? So don't claim that we burned the bridges.

[u/Damon986 → u/No-Calligrapher6399]

It’s interesting how some conveniently skip over the larger geopolitical picture and focus only on what fits their narrative. Yes, the Georgian-Abkhazian war began in 1992 — but let’s not pretend it was a standalone ethnic conflict. From the very beginning, Russia played a decisive role, under the so-called “peacekeeping” or “railway protection” missions. But what followed was anything but peaceful.

Russian troops and equipment supported separatist forces, and “volunteers” from the North Caucasus — including Chechen fighters — flooded into Abkhazia. This wasn’t just a local disagreement; it was a war fueled and sustained by outside interference.

You say Georgians burned bridges? In reality, it was Russia that tore up the road — replacing dialogue with manipulation, and turning Abkhazia into a pawn in its imperial game. Hundreds of thousands of Georgians were ethnically cleansed — a fact that international organizations, including the UN, recognized. Those people are still refugees, unable to return to their homes.

So, if we’re really talking about distorting reality, maybe start by addressing the fact that what happened in Abkhazia was not an organic uprising, but part of a much broader strategy — one we’ve seen repeated in places like Crimea and Donbas.

[u/Critical_Top3117 → u/Damon986]

Since when people having their very own language and culture can’t have independence from other people?

[u/Abaza-6-7-13]

First of all, you have to get some facts into your heads.

1- Abkhazians are not Georgian or of Kartvelian descent...

2- We do not want to see a Kartvelian majority again in our homeland. The pre-war Kartvelian majority was a result of Georgian colonialism following the genocide of the Abkhazians in the late 19th century.

3- Before the Russian conquest and occupation of the Caucasus, Abkhazia was independent from Georgia or the Georgian principalities.

We had a much worse time before Russia recognized us in 2008. Even then, the conditions couldn't bring us to knees. Do you think you can tame us with poverty?

[u/Damon986 → u/Abaza-6-7-13]

Let’s be honest—everyone can write their own version of history, but that doesn’t mean the world accepts it. 1. Ethnic identity doesn’t determine borders. No one claimed Abkhazians are Kartvelian. But being a different ethnic group doesn’t justify breaking away from a country. If it did, most countries in the world would fall apart. 2. Accusing Georgia of colonialism is historically inaccurate. The demographic changes you mention mostly happened under the Russian Empire and Soviet Union—not as part of any Georgian-led campaign. In fact, during Soviet times, Abkhazia had privileges many other regions didn’t. 3. Abkhazia was never a fully independent state in the modern sense. It has been under the control of the Ottoman Empire, Russian Empire, and Soviet Union. Any brief autonomy it had was under imperial rule—not as a sovereign, recognized country. 4. You say you’ve survived poverty—but is that really the goal? Right now, Abkhazia has no diplomatic recognition, faces regular power outages, and is entirely dependent on Russia. That’s not resilience—it’s stagnation. 5. You ask if we think we can “tame” you with poverty. The truth is, it’s not hard to “tame” 90,000 people. The only reason it hasn’t happened is Russia’s military presence. That’s the real barrier—nothing else.

You can hold onto your version of history, but the world cares about progress, stability, and international law—not selective storytelling. Georgia offers a path forward. Abkhazia remains stuck, isolated, and dependent.

[u/Abaza-6-7-13 → u/Damon986]

Then why the retards in r/sakartvelo still keep saying "Abkhazians are Georgians just like Mingrelians and other" etc ... No you fucking bastard we are not GEORGİAN we are repesentive of proud NORTH WEST CAUCASIANS aka ADYGHE-ABASG... As long as they continue to insult us by calling us "Georgian" we must not make the slightest concession..

If being a different ethnic group doesn't justify secession from a country, why did Georgia secede from Russia? Doesn't Chechnya have the right to independence? Why are the idiots on Reddit whining about an independent Kurdish state?

Georgia profited from our disasters. If they can still shout, "Abkhazia is Georgia," they owe it to the Russia and Abkhaz genocide and exile of the 19th century. Those so-called refugees were nothing more than colonial parasites who migrated from Zugdidi to Abkhazia. If these people want to return to Abkhazia, they must consider living in an independent Abkhaz state.

In my opinion, the only people who deserve to return to Abkhazia are the Abkhaz diaspora, descendants of the victims of the 19th-century genocide. With all the whining about Georgian refugees, why isn't anyone talking about our diaspora, which was subjected to genocide and exile, or our demographic structure, which was ruined by the Russians and Georgians?

The Ottoman Empire's control over us was very limited. Unlike the Balkan peoples, we didn't pay a single penny in taxes or anything like that to the Ottomans. They simply engaged in trade and cooperation with us and left us alone. Because, in their opinion, we were a bit too wild to be governed. The Russians, on the other hand, had to genocide and exile over 70 percent of our population to bring us under their control.

Why couldn't you tame 90k people in the war in 1993 then? How charming it is to pretend to be a victim on the international stage, claiming "we are a small country of 3.5 million," while threatening a smaller nation. If the Abkhaz people had not been victims of genocide and exile in the 19th century and had not lost 70-80 percent of their population, would you be making such cute threats today?

If integrating with the world means losing our independence and becoming a minority in our homeland again, thank you, we don't want it. Personally, it seems more attractive and "honorable" to be as isolated as the Taliban's Afghanistan.

[u/Mikheil3004 → u/Abaza-6-7-13]

Simply insulting Georgians and talking nonsense won't change the fact that Colkheti was Georgian! First, learn some history! Georgians (predominantly Mengreli and ancestors of the Svans) and Abaz (west of Sukhumi) once lived in present-day Abkhazia (later, the Greeks also came). And when it comes to genetics, you seem to have no idea at all. It's now proven that almost half of the Abkhaz are ethnically Georgian. There never actually were any ethnic Abkhazians!

[u/Critical_Top3117 → u/Damon986]

Abkhazia was never a fully independent state in the modern sense.  -> well, Ukraine was never fully independent state in the modern sense, but you support its independence, right? (I fully do, just for the record). It's exactly this type of hypocrisy is leading us to wars all over the place.

[u/Damon986 → u/Critical_Top3117]

Let’s clear something up — saying “Abkhazia was never a fully independent state in the modern sense” is not some gotcha moment. That’s a fact. And comparing that to Ukraine is not just inaccurate — it’s deeply misleading.

Yes, Ukraine was part of larger empires — the Russian Empire, then the USSR — but the moment the Soviet Union collapsed, Ukraine became an internationally recognized, sovereign country, with a seat at the United Nations, embassies around the world, international treaties, and democratic institutions. Its independence was recognized by every major power on Earth, including Russia (until 2014, of course).

Abkhazia? – Declared “independence” after a war that included ethnic cleansing of its Georgian population – Is recognized by five countries, most of them authoritarian regimes or client states of Russia – Functions only with Russian military, political, and economic support – And let’s be honest — has no functioning independent economy, foreign policy, or legal credibility

So let’s not pretend these are the same situations.

Ukraine is fighting to preserve internationally recognized sovereignty — what’s happening there is a violation of its borders by a foreign aggressor. Abkhazia, on the other hand, broke away with foreign help, expelled half its population, and now survives as a de facto Russian protectorate.

Calling both “independence movements” is like saying a hostage and a kidnapper are just having a misunderstanding.

And if we want to talk about hypocrisy — here’s one: People who shout “self-determination” when it suits them (Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Donbas), but scream “territorial integrity!” when it’s their own borders under threat.

So yes — I fully support Ukraine’s independence. But I also support Georgia’s territorial integrity, the right of 250,000 displaced Georgians to return home, and a world where ethnic cleansing isn’t rewarded with fake embassies and meaningless flags.

[u/Critical_Top3117 → u/Damon986]

you know who said about ethnic cleansing and blah blah? The guy's name Vladimir Putin. You either support people's right to live in the own country or you don't, but you can't really be picky (well, apparently you can, but that road leads to nowhere). I'm russian by birth, I gave up my russian passport long time ago and I live in eu, I love georgia, I despise russia in its current state, I do support the right for independence for every people there is, ukraine, abkhazia or palestine.

[u/NoAdministration9472 → u/Damon986]

I know one thing, Russia should've marched all the way to Tbilisi for people like you back in 2008.

[u/Damon986 → u/NoAdministration9472]

“Russia should’ve marched to Tbilisi”? Thanks for confirming what we already knew — your idea of justice is foreign tanks crushing anyone who disagrees with you.

You talk about freedom and independence, yet cheer for the same army that flattens cities, murders civilians, and props up puppet regimes. You don’t want dignity for Abkhazia — you just want Georgia broken, even if it means kissing the boots of the very empire that genocided your own ancestors.

If your fantasy is Russian soldiers in Tbilisi, then you’re not a freedom fighter — you’re just another bitter imperialist in denial.

[u/Ill-Surprise-2644 → u/Abaza-6-7-13]

So a group of people who are a minority in a country should trump rights of the majority who are there for events beyond their control that happened 125+ years ago? Georgians have a right to live there. Abkhazians have right to live there too. Deal with it. Or accept being an impoverished, illegal mafia state for decades and decades to come.

[u/lazarusss_ → u/Abaza-6-7-13]

3- Before the Russian conquest and occupation of the Caucasus, Abkhazia was independent from Georgia or the Georgian principalities.blatant lie

blatant lie

2- We do not want to see a Kartvelian majority again in our homeland. The pre-war Kartvelian majority was a result of Georgian colonialism following the genocide of the Abkhazians in the late 19th century.

the second part about genocide is just not true as well and commenting about kartvelians not being in abkhazia, why dont you protest that abkhazia is full of russians. okay you think that they "survived" you but why dont you think about what they represent, what are their plan, what was going on during last 2 centuries, what abkhazia and samachablo's occupation truly means. it is about that Russia is imperialist country which still has the plan to invade countries and reestablish USSR-like shit, that is what is truly going to the ukraine as well, and invading abkhazia and samachablo was the same trick, it works like mine. think of that.

[u/Grouchy_Detective880 → u/Abaza-6-7-13]

3- Before the Russian conquest and occupation of the Caucasus, Abkhazia was independent from Georgia or the Georgian principalities.

I would be happy if you show us historical timelines of your Abkhazia starting from the first century, because Before the Russian conquest and occupation of the Caucasus - it is too general

[u/RitsaKudjba]

I am not saying this to underestimate or something, I have noticed that the main reason why your people mostly struggle to understand the position and ideology of Abkhazia is that they have a distorted historic and political view on the subject and they have not experienced such difficult times in modern history and did not fully believe in their own strength, constantly seeking help and support from others. (they even started the 1992 war trusting Russia). We, on the contrary, have lived through long repressions and discrimination, the war and post-war total isolation. I was born into blockade and have seen the consequences of the war all these years, not only locally but on international level. I don’t care how the media covers the situation there or interpret the events. Despite having one main partner in the near abroad, the people of Abkhazia rely on oneself and manage to seek their rights everytime.

[u/Damon986 → u/RitsaKudjba]

So what fate will they have, because independent is something unrealistic

[u/RitsaKudjba → u/Damon986]

The problem is that you persistently deny independence. Abkhazia is an independent state. As an argument, you requiring a country to be 100% independent in all terms from other contries, is unrealistic. You cannot name one country that meets that criteria.

[u/RitsaKudjba → u/RitsaKudjba]

Moreover, for the things you blame Abkhazia are mostly a result of the Georgian policies. You can't destroy the whole country then blame the victim for having abandoned ruined buildings. You can't isolate and block all the ways then blame people for using Russian passport, which is not even a cizitenship but a travel document. You can't blame people seeking medical care in Georgia while abjectly and politicaly force them to sign documents.

[u/RitsaKudjba → u/RitsaKudjba]

Everyone talks about confederation/federation/autonomy and etc. But every single of these scemes have been tried. It did not work out. Despite everything Abkhazia tried to prevent the conflict. Even after the war Abkhazia proposed 3 different forms of confederation. Georgia did not even respond. In 2008 our minister of foreign affairs visited Tbilisi for a meeting. The president of Georgia, instead of meeting him, visited the newly placed military base near the border demonstratively. Shortly after, the war broke. Allow me to ask you to be sincere and answer, do you really think that it might work after all of this?

[u/Damon986 → u/RitsaKudjba]

Let’s be honest — you don’t get to decide anything. Russia does. Every time negotiations are mentioned, you act like Abkhazia is coming to the table as an equal, as a sovereign player. But in reality, you’re not holding the pen — Moscow is.

You didn’t choose independence — Russia handed you a passport. You didn’t choose recognition — Russia gave it to you, and almost no one else followed. You didn’t choose isolation — Russia made you depend on it, and now you’re stuck.

You claim to have offered confederation — but what power did you have to offer anything? You can’t offer a deal when you’re not the one in control of your land, your border, your military, or your economy.

So no, these weren’t real negotiations. They were a performance — and you were just reading from a script written in the Kremlin.

You ask if it can work after everything? Maybe. But not until Abkhazia actually speaks for itself — not with a Russian flag over its head and a Russian general behind its back.

[u/Damon986 → u/RitsaKudjba]

Yes, Abkhazia faces real hardships — and no one is denying that. But blaming Georgia for everything while ignoring Russia’s role in creating and sustaining this situation is just intellectually dishonest.

Let’s break it down: • Ruined buildings? They weren’t caused by Georgian “policy” — they were the result of a war, one that started with a violent separatist uprising, supported by Russia and North Caucasian militants. Thousands of Georgians were ethnically cleansed and forced out — entire cities emptied. If you want to talk about destruction, let’s start there. • Russian passports? Georgia didn’t block Abkhazia from the world — Russia did, by militarizing the region and cutting it off from international law. Those passports aren’t some humanitarian gift — they’re a geopolitical tool that further buries Abkhazia under Russian control. No one forced people to take them — it was Russia that made them the only viable option by isolating you from every other direction. • Medical care in Georgia? Yes, Georgian hospitals still treat Abkhazians. That’s not exploitation — that’s called humanitarian outreach. If signing a simple consent form is more offensive than being stuck with third-world healthcare in isolation, then maybe the real problem isn’t Georgia.

Georgia isn’t perfect — no one is claiming that. But to say everything is Georgia’s fault, while ignoring 30 years of Russian occupation, war, manipulation, and forced dependency, is not just inaccurate — it’s rewriting the story completely.

[u/Damon986 → u/RitsaKudjba]

The issue isn’t that Abkhazia isn’t “100% independent” in some idealized, perfect sense — it’s that it’s not independent at all in any meaningful way.

Yes, no country is entirely independent — everyone relies on trade, diplomacy, alliances. But there’s a massive difference between cooperation and complete dependency.

Abkhazia’s situation isn’t like France being in NATO or Germany trading with China. It’s: • Dependent on Russian funding to keep the budget running, • Dependent on Russian troops to guard its borders, • Dependent on Russian passports, even for international travel, • Dependent on Moscow’s approval for every political move.

That’s not independence — that’s occupation wrapped in a flag.

You say Abkhazia is a state. Okay — name the international organizations it’s a member of. List the embassies. List the countries (other than Russia, Syria, Venezuela, etc.) that recognize it. Spoiler: it doesn’t function as a state on the international level — because the international community doesn’t see it as one.

Calling something “independent” doesn’t make it so. You can declare a tent in your backyard a republic too — but until the world recognizes it, it remains just that: a tent.

[u/RitsaKudjba → u/Damon986]

Also don't get me started. Your state is so terrified of any appearance of Abkhazia anywhere that they banned literal CHILDREN from an event in Turkey on 23 April childrens day.

[u/Damon986 → u/RitsaKudjba]

Georgia isn’t afraid of Abkhazia appearing anywhere — it’s defending its territorial integrity, just like any other country would. When a separatist region shows up at international events under a flag and name that implies statehood, it’s no longer just a cultural performance — it becomes a political act.

You wouldn’t expect Spain to allow Catalonia to represent itself as a separate country in international forums. Or Turkey to allow a Kurdish flag under the name “Kurdistan” at a global event. Why should Georgia be held to a different standard?

And as for the 23 April event in Turkey — the frustration is understandable, but the real issue is who is politicizing children’s events by sending delegations under unrecognized “state” symbols. You can’t demand recognition while acting like it’s apolitical.

Want to protect culture? Share music, dance, language — no problem. But when it becomes about pushing “statehood” through soft diplomacy, then Georgia has every right to respond diplomatically — just like any other country would.

So no — this isn’t about being “terrified.” It’s about not legitimizing an occupation — even if it’s wearing traditional clothes and holding balloons.

[u/RitsaKudjba → u/Damon986]

Dude I'm not reading all that ai horseshit

[u/Damon986 → u/[deleted]]

Oh wow, calling me “stupid and delusional” — how original! Just so you know, I’m using AI to make sure my responses are grammatically correct and clear, not to produce nonsense. If only your insults were as sharp as the tools I’m using, maybe we’d actually get somewhere. But hey, keep the creative insults coming while ignoring the real points. That’s really productive, right?

By the way, what exactly nonsense did you find in my messages? I’m curious — maybe you can point out the specifics instead of just throwing insults.

[u/RitsaKudjba → u/Damon986]

Ok, I don't wanna read chatgpt. I already adressed all the points ai made, in my next comments. Though, I will gladly answer any questions you might have.

[u/Leox96C]

I had never heard of this place (Abkhazia translated into Portuguese) living and learning 😅😅😅 Reddit surprised me now.

[u/alles-europa → u/Leox96C]

I'm Portuguese too. I'd heard of this conflict, and it always appeared to me that both sides were quite in the wrong.

Abkhazia is indeed a Russian puppet, regardless of what people there may tell themselves. Most problems they face are a direct result of Russian imperialism.

Georgia is indeed completely unreasonable in repeatedly rejecting calls or negotiations for autonomy or federation. Despite being a victim of Russian aggression themselves, it's true that they don't seem to have any issue in enforcing their ideal of a unitarian Georgian state in places where it simply isn't the case.

But then again, it's the Caucasus, it's like the Balkans on steroids. These conflicts have been going for centuries, and all sides have a long list of grievances and long memories. The only one that benefits from this petty squabbling is Russia, who has dominated the region for centuries on account of it.

[u/Leox96C → u/alles-europa]

I liked your explanation, very complete! (By the way, I'm Brazilian 😃😃)

[u/alles-europa → u/Leox96C]

Abraço de Lisboa, irmão!

[u/Leox96C → u/alles-europa]

Thanks! And another hug for you!!

[u/Bligen → u/alles-europa]

As a Georgian I believe that our Government was to blame to a certain degree, but with entirely different reason. (Provocations from Russian/Abkhaz side should not been answered with attack of our own)

I just wanted to say that before 2008 conflict there were several attempts at negotiating with Abkhazian side and in most of them they were offered a great amount of autonomy.

[u/alles-europa → u/Bligen]

You’d know better than I could, of course.

[u/AntiqueLibrarian5965]

Damn wtf is Abkhazia lol Ive never ever heard of this place. Cool.

[u/MafSporter]

When it comes to Abkhazia, the Georgian becomes like the Russian he hates so much. He cries at the Russian with tears "COLONIALIST! IMPERIALIST!" and then turns to Abkhazia with hungry eyes and a dripping mouth.

Disgusting.

[u/Hrvrk → u/MafSporter]

So sad to admit you’re being correct here

[u/Grouchy_Detective880]

I want to add very few things (without any disrespect to the people in this sub, but my honest thoughts):

It's good that a person (I think we are talking about the same Abkhazian) has shown some interest (at least) in discussing the situation.

However, the author of this post is right. The independence of Abkhazia is not very realistic without the support of Ruzzia. You are only recognized by Ruzzia and some of its friends (not even Belarus and Iran formally recognized you, despite Lukashenko's visit). And this happened only in 2008, following the war with Georgia that same year. As for Ruzzia, Abkhazia (and Samachablo) is a mechanism against Georgia, and to reminisce about soviet times when they spent their vacations there and they don't care much about your country. Simply, remember what is happening with Cherkezs's settlements now, how they are flooded with non-local residents from different parts of Ruzzia and what was happening in Ruzzia of the 90's with republics in the North Caucasus and Central Asia.

Based on international laws, Abkhazia (Abkhazeti) is the territory of Georgia controlled by Ruzzia and some random screens and websites with some groundless historical facts that are sometimes posted here won't change anything.

Also, I don't think you have more chances of keeping your identity and language with Ruzzia rather than with another Caucasian country.

Sorry, if it isn't well-structured, but I think my idea is understandable.

[u/Damon986]

Still, no one has answered the only question that actually matters: How exactly is “Abkhazia” supposed to survive without Russia? What’s the master plan? What gives you the confidence it’s even remotely possible?

Ask this, and suddenly the conversation shifts—every time. Instead of an answer, we get a crash course in highly selective “history,” rewritten five times since breakfast. Then come the dramatic cries of “genocide” — a term thrown around so casually it’s starting to lose all meaning.

It’s like a magic trick: don’t look at the present reality — just focus on 19th-century nostalgia and pretend Russia isn’t paying the bills.

So again: without Russian troops, money, or protection — what’s the backup plan? Silence. Because there isn’t one. And everyone knows it.

[u/RitsaKudjba → u/Damon986]

For starters, Georgia must sign non-aggression pact. From there I'm sure several options can be possible.

[u/Damon986 → u/RitsaKudjba]

It’s useless, I don’t say that one of sides will definitely broke it, but it didn’t help USSR nor Ukraine

[u/RitsaKudjba → u/Damon986]

You persistently don't understand that the more you try to isolate us and keep cowardly oppressive policy towards Abkhazia the more you pushing yourself into your own corner. I'll say it again if you are dense to understand. Abkhazia wanted to prevent this conflict till the very last moment and was the party trying to solve the conflict after the war. Abkhazia living its independence finally and slowly but surely developing. Abkhazia overcame the agvression from Georgia for at least century and seen far more worst days and will cope with your sates efforts of diminish it. But Georgia on the other hand must realize it has no future until it recognizes its mistakes and then the independecy of Abkahzia.

[u/Fabulous-Pea-5366 → u/Damon986]

It actually depends on the Georgian government. if they become Pro-Russian and hand over strategic roads to Russia maybe the West and Turkey would support Abkhazia to pressure Georgia.

[u/Damon986 → u/Fabulous-Pea-5366]

You’re right — geopolitics is ruthless, and if Georgia were to fully align with Russia, the West and Turkey would definitely push back. But supporting Abkhazia? That’s a stretch.

Let’s be realistic — Turkey has never recognized Abkhazia and likely never will. Supporting a breakaway region would set a dangerous precedent, especially given Turkey’s own Kurdish issue. The same goes for Western countries — they’ve consistently supported Georgia’s territorial integrity, not because they love Georgia, but because international law matters when you’re trying to prevent global chaos (see Kosovo, Crimea, etc.).

What they might do is increase pressure on a pro-Russian Georgian government — politically, economically, even through other regional actors. But actively supporting Abkhazia’s independence? That would mean aligning with Russia’s narrative from the 1990s — not a smart move if the goal is to weaken Russian influence.

So yes, if Georgia bends to Russia, it will lose allies and trust. But no — that doesn’t mean Abkhazia suddenly becomes a pawn for the West or Turkey. In the end, the only thing that will strengthen Abkhazia’s case is a weak, divided, and directionless Georgia. And that’s exactly what we should be avoiding.

[u/Fabulous-Pea-5366 → u/Damon986]

That is a valid point. But most of the time interests matter not international law. Turkey have solved the Kurdish issue. The PKK have laid down their arms. The US have many records of supporting countries that usually violate international law. The best example is Israel recently. If Russia cooperates with Georgia the narrative will be shifted and roles might be exchanged,

[u/AntiqueLibrarian5965 → u/Fabulous-Pea-5366]

Turkey stopped the fighting. For now. But surely you dont believe that thats the end for the kurdish struggle for independance ? Turkey did not solve anything, its merely a pause, a strategic decision for borth Turkey and the Kurds to save face on the international chessboard. Kurds been at it for over a century, thinking that this truce is the end of the conflict is irrational.

[u/No-Calligrapher6399]

Hello there:) This guy talks about my post

I want to tell you that even though Abkhazia is in a very difficult situation now, it has been in such situations many times, we have been threatened many times,Many times the Abkhazian people have been tested by fate, but the Abkhazians have always coped with it, and we will cope with it now!

And while our will is not broken, we will fight for a happy future. We do not want anyone's blood, we want peace for everyone, anyone who comes to us with good intentions will be accepted as a welcome guest. But whoever comes to us with a sword will suffer from it.

[u/Damon986 → u/No-Calligrapher6399]

Spare me the “tested by fate, unbroken will” fairy tale — sounds straight out of a Soviet propaganda playbook.

You say „abkazhia“ has “coped”? Yeah, if by coping you mean collapsing economically, drowning in isolation, and living off Russian welfare. Real heroic.

You preach about welcoming guests with “good intentions”? Last time, 250,000 civilians came with nothing—and they were burned, killed, or forced out. Now you want us to buy the victim act?

And that “those who come with a sword” nonsense? The only sword here belongs to Russia — and you’re just polishing it.

Let’s be honest: you’re not defending „abkazhia“. You’re running a Russian military daycare.

Call it pride, resilience, whatever — but don’t dare call it independence.

Because independence means controlling your own destiny — not waiting for Moscow’s permission and armored convoys.

[u/No-Calligrapher6399 → u/Damon986]

Soviet propaganda? During the Soviet period, the Abkhazians were close to extinction, what propaganda are we talking about?

"Сoped" It means we were saved from the fate that awaited us as part of Georgia and what we have now is much better than what could have happened.

Civilians? Civilians, the majority of whom rose up against the Abkhazians? They are civilians for you, but for us they are Georgians who were resettled to Abkhazia to assimilate us.And after the war, they vehemently expressed their position against the independence of Abkhazia. Why do you think there are 40 thousand Georgians living in Abkhazia now? Just by chance? Why do they have normal relations with the Abkhazians? Isn't it because these are the people who didn't support Georgia in the war?

The Russian government did not support us in 1992, we were supported by volunteers who came to stop the Georgian oppression.

Our actions do not depend on Russia, our actions are consistent with the interests of Russia

[u/Damon986 → u/No-Calligrapher6399]

Soviet propaganda? During the Soviet era, Abkhazia had autonomy, its own language rights, and even quotas in government. The Abkhaz language was taught in schools while ethnic Georgians in Abkhazia didn’t have comparable privileges. If that’s your definition of “extinction,” it’s completely detached from reality.

You say you “coped” — meaning you avoided staying in Georgia. But what did you gain? An unrecognized status, a collapsed economy, a shrinking population, and total dependence on Moscow. That’s not survival. That’s long-term isolation under someone else’s control.

And the civilians you dismiss — they were Georgians who had lived in Abkhazia for generations. Claiming they were “resettled to assimilate you” is a weak excuse for ethnic cleansing. Over 200,000 Georgians were violently expelled. The fact that around 40,000 remain doesn’t prove loyalty — it shows that not everyone could be driven out.

Now let’s talk about Russia. You claim the Russian government didn’t help in 1992 — but that’s simply false. Russian forces provided direct and indirect support. Volunteers were funneled in through the Russian border. Many were armed in the North Caucasus and allowed to cross freely. Russian Black Sea Fleet ships shelled Georgian positions. Russian helicopters flew missions. And Russian commanders “resigned” just long enough to lead your militias and then quietly returned to service.

This wasn’t just “volunteers.” It was a well-coordinated effort from a country that didn’t want Georgia united or independent.

And you even admit it: “Our actions are consistent with Russia’s interests.” There it is. You’re not independent — you’re aligned. Your decisions aren’t your own, they serve Moscow’s agenda. And deep down, I think you know it.

[u/Fabulous-Pea-5366]

The second option might prove risky for Georgia. I have seen many government supporters in Georgia actively talking about this idea but no one has the proper answer for what Russia actually want in return. these people think that if they simply make some changes to the constitution and never join the EU and NATO Russia will just give away Abkhazia but I don't really think so. First of all Russia have already achieved its goal, Georgia itself have failed to join any of these organizations and with that current government it seems impossible in the near future. Russia obviously want more, like controlling strategic roads, having military bases just to pressure Azerbaijan and Armenia and minimize the Turkish influence which has been replacing their influence slowly. If Georgia agrees to that then that might prove fatal for them as they would antagonize 3 countries and one of them a major regional power which is Turkey. Considering that Georgia has an Azerbaijani Turkish minority who are not well integrated and would support Turkey and Azerbaijan, then that is a risky move. I don't know. I personally would not fight for pro-Russian Georgia as a Georgian citizen living in Marneuli.

[u/Joseph0005 → u/Fabulous-Pea-5366]

I see where you're coming from about the Azerbaijani diaspora in Kvemo Kartli (borçalı) possibly wanting to join Azerbaijan, but you're not entirely right. I'm saying this as an Azerbaijani from Kvemo Kartli, many Azeris here actually prefer Georgia. But let’s set that aside and focus on a few other points. Around 80% of Azerbaijanis are involved in agriculture, so most people aren’t willing to risk everything in a war. They’d much rather emigrate, like many already did back in the 90s. On top of that, a lot of people recognize that there are better opportunities in Georgia compared to Azerbaijan economically and socially. That said, this could change over time, especially considering Georgia's current pro-Russian government.

Also, it's worth mentioning that the Azerbaijani government has never shown any interest in occupying Kvemo Kartli. And culturally, a lot of Azeris in Kvemo Kartli are farr less religious than people in Azerbaijan itself.

In short, people here have a lot to lose and aren’t looking for conflict they would much sooner leave the country than get involved in a war or most/some wouldn't do much and stay in Georgia.

[u/Fabulous-Pea-5366 → u/Joseph0005]

Totally valid point I agree with that to some extent but logically speaking let's say they have businesses and make so much money all of a sudden the pro-Russian Georgian government starts to seize their properties so they would be at risk, on the other hand Azerbaijan might offer protection. For Azerbaijan it is a more feasible option to protect these people and their businesses therefore having a new wave of tax payers than letting them in and allocating some budget to accommodate refugees. in fact Borcali region has fertile lands so Azerbaijan would really be interested in that.

The second part of this equation is that people are not well-integrated. There is no Georgian influence in the region at all. Most people don't join the army and also the Georgian government always calls them a diaspora which kind of makes them feel Azerbaijani citizens. For the Georgian government these people are not equal citizens, they are just a bridge or some sort of shield just not to antagonize Azerbaijan or Turkey since they already have problems in 2 breakaway regions. These people consume Turkish or Azerbaijani content, I would say maybe 0.01 percent maybe watch Georgian stuff. put all these aside government officials sometimes treat them bad or police prioritizing ethnic Georgians over ethnic Azerbaijanis. I also made a post about it. the recent Bolnisi event is a good example of such attitude.

[u/Joseph0005 → u/Fabulous-Pea-5366]

I must say you’ve made good points. I'm just going to add some context. A lot more people watch Russian content compared to Azerbaijani, but in general the most consumed content is in Turkish. Turkish TV shows and YouTube channels are extremely popular and influence both language and culture. A lot of people also mix in some Russian words when speaking Azerbaijani, especially older generations or those living in cities where Russian was historically dominant. In the recent generation, far more people are going studying in Tbilisi in English or Georgian. Some do it through special quota programs that offer Georgian language preparation before entering university. Yes, the Azerbaijani population is not integrated, and the government has always tried to integrate Azeris, but with little effect. Many still don’t speak Georgian fluently. According to recent estimates, only around 40 to 50 percent of Azerbaijanis in Georgia speak Georgian at a functional level. I agree with your last point completely. I completely agree on your last point.

[u/Fabulous-Pea-5366 → u/Joseph0005]

Some progress has been definitely made. I am not denying it but if this country turns pro-Russian chances are that to pressure Azerbaijan or Turkey, even Armenia Russia might use it as leverage just to sabotage the new corridor which would bypass Georgia. technically speaking Russian and Georgian interests align why? because Russia ends up controlling the strategic roads and blocks the West and Turkey, Georgia gains back the control of two occupied regions and keeps the transportation hub status. For Russia it is important to control Caucasus and having Azerbaijan and Armenia in check by instigating wars. For Georgians businessmen close to the government they don't care if we ethic Azerbaijanis or Armenians keep hating each other in fact it is in their interest we keep killing each other and never build peace thus minimizing the chance of opening up a new corridor. There are many Georgian logistics companies which just care about their profits. This is why I wrote in the first comment that I would not fight for such people and country.

[u/Damon986 → u/Fabulous-Pea-5366]

You’re raising some valid strategic concerns, but I think you’re also underestimating how dangerous inaction and cynicism are for Georgia’s future.

Yes, Russia won’t hand over Abkhazia just because Georgia promises not to join NATO. That much is obvious. But what’s the alternative? Sit around waiting for Russia to collapse? Abandon any vision of reunification altogether?

You say Russia already “achieved its goal” — but Russia’s goal was never just blocking NATO. It’s about turning Georgia into a failed, neutralized state in its backyard. And if we give up our Western aspirations completely, that goal will be complete.

About strategic roads and military bases — yes, Russia wants them. That’s exactly why conceding to Russian demands is not only dangerous — it’s suicidal. You’re right that it would alienate Turkey, Azerbaijan, and the West. But then why even consider such a path? Why not work with those regional powers to strengthen Georgia’s position?

And finally — saying you wouldn’t fight for a “pro-Russian Georgia” as a Georgian citizen is understandable emotionally, but also worrying. Because the more divided we become internally, the easier it is for Russia to get what it wants — without firing a single bullet.

[u/Fabulous-Pea-5366 → u/Damon986]

The only option would to be on the winning side here which is the West and Turkey. Look no matter how hard Russia try they have no power compared to the power the West have. It is not even the slightest bit. The US alone have hundreds of military bases all around the world, influence in multiple key regions such as the middle east, south east Asia, pacific, Europe. I am not even mentioning the central and South America and recently they have shown the willingness of having an Us company to control the Zangezur corridor which will connect the East and West. their economy is the number one, they are leading in tech, especially in AI, their currency is global. What Russia have to offer for you? Let me tell you just filling the pockets of the millionaires close to the GD. When it comes to cooperating with Russia, Armenia is the most experienced one in the region. and look what they are doing right now? their prime minister visiting Turkey and dropping Russia, Azerbaijan arresting Russian journalists and yet your government. what they are doing? blocking Armenian trucks carrying gas to Armenia from Russia accusing them of violating some regulations. Just connect the dots and you will see the pattern, All this time Armenian trucks had no records of violating regulations and all of a sudden right in the middle of the talks for the corridor in Armenia and peace deal with Azerbaijan they have broken the rules. Again if Georgia becomes pro-russian I am not taking arms joining the army. Georgia will simply experience what Armenia did in 2020-2023 and Russia will watch you just fall apart.

[u/lasha4433]

man what is this random georgian region up to mumbling about independence like a problematic child

[u/Ok-Contribution7212]

I doubt Georgia will take it by force. My guess is that Abkhazians will not have another choice. They can't servive without a proper economy.