r/Abkhazia 8d ago

How History is taught in Abkhazia?

In georgia we are taught that Apsua North Caucasian people came from mountains to abkhaz land in 15th- century when georgia was fractured and weak. Main argument is that Abkhaz kingdom was feudal already in 9th century while Apsua in 19th century russia are still in tribal system. And also their is no sign of etnic or language difference in abkazia before 15th- century

Just want to know what you think about it and what you are taught. And what are you arguments. Not to fight or say that i am right you are wrong.

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u/Rafsit 8d ago

The "Abazgi" were an ancient tribe and the historical inhabitants of the region known today as Abkhazia. Their name gave rise to the modern demonym "Abkhaz". They are considered ancestors of the modern Abkhaz and Abazin people and were documented by ancient Greek and Roman writers like Strabo and Pliny the Elder. The Abasgi revolted against the Byzantine Empire in the 6th century, and their territory later became part of a larger Georgian-speaking state called Abasgia. 

Ancient Origins and Location 

Ancient Tribe: The Abasgi (also spelled Abasgoi) were an ancient tribe inhabiting the western region of Abkhazia, north of the Apsilae.

Ancestors of Modern Peoples: They are considered the ancestors of the modern Abkhaz and Abazin people.

Writings by Ancient Authors: The Abasgi are mentioned in ancient texts, including those by the Greek historian Arrian and the Roman writer Pliny the Elder, where they are described as warlike and worshiping tree deities.

Historical Development

Revolt against the Byzantines:

In 550 AD, the Abasgi revolted against the Byzantine Empire during the Lazic War and sought assistance from the Sasanian Empire. Their revolt was suppressed by the Byzantine general Bessas. 

Formation of Abasgia:

By the 6th century, their territory had shifted, and the term "Abasgia" came to denote a larger area that included various ethnic groups and was ruled by Byzantine-appointed princes. 

Rise of the Kingdom of Abkhazia:

Through dynastic unions and alliances with other Georgian princes, the Abasgian dynasty expanded its territory and, by the 780s, established themselves as "kings of the Abkhazians". 

Legacy

Geographic and Ethnonymic Significance:

The name "Abasgia" gave rise to the modern Georgian term "Abkhazeti" (the land of the Abkhazians), and eventually to the name "Abkhazia". 

Linguistic Connection:

The Abazgi language is a branch of the Northwest Caucasian languages and forms a dialect continuum with the Abaza language, further linking these ancient peoples. 

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u/Grouchy_Detective880 8d ago

The "Abazgi" were an ancient tribe and the historical inhabitants of the region known today as Abkhazia. Their name gave rise to the modern demonym "Abkhaz". They are considered ancestors of the modern Abkhaz and Abazin people and were documented by ancient Greek and Roman writers like Strabo and Pliny the Elder.

Can you show me the original sources (in English or Russian) and where (page, line) this information is written?

And why do you assume that the Abazgi people originally spoke Abkhazian, not the Georgian (Kartvelian) language?

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u/Rafsit 8d ago

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u/Grouchy_Detective880 8d ago

Don't understand me incorrectly, but I don't think Wikipedia can be considered as "original source". Wikipedia isn't a collection of scientific articles that can be quoted or used as proof, as anyone can edit it as they wish. My lecturer of History got veeery angry when he saw articles from Wikipedia used as references to something (we weren't even from History or a similar faculty).

When I commented, I expected lines from the books of Strabo or Pliny the Elder:)

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u/Rafsit 8d ago

Direct Quote from Strabo, Geography 11.2.14 (Loeb Classical Library translation by H.L. Jones, with minor updates for clarity) "Next after the Colchians one comes to the Achaei and the Zygii, then the Heniochi, and then the Cercetae, who are an offshoot of the Zygii and extend as far as the Acharians. After the Acharians one comes to the Sanigae, the Bithynians, the Bechiri, the Zygodes, the Cercetae, the Phoristae, the Corymbi, the Anacleti, the Phthiotae, the Byzeres, the Rhyndacitae, the Armanzi, the Moschi, and the Colchians again. The tribes between Dioscurias and Pityus are savage, and live on the fruits of the forest, using the so-called 'Pontic tree' for their beds, tables, and drinking-cups, and smearing their bodies with oil of the sea-walnut. They are a warlike people, and although they have kings, they nevertheless fight in a lawless manner. After Pityus comes Dioscurias, with seventy communities, which were reduced to a single town by Pompey. It has a port and a dockyard. The Apsilae, the Abasgi, and the Sanigae come next. The Abasgi are said to live on the banks of the Abascus River, which flows into the Euxine. They are a savage race, who worship trees and supply many eunuchs to the kings of Pontus and the emperors of Rome." (Note: The exact wording varies slightly across translations due to textual variants in the Greek manuscripts, such as the 10th-century Parisinus gr. 1397. The Loeb edition is standard, but modern translations like Duane W. Roller's 2014 edition render it similarly, emphasizing the Abasgians' location and customs. Strabo's original Greek for the tribe is "Ἁβάσγοι" [Habaskoi].)

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u/Rafsit 8d ago

Pliny the Elder, in his encyclopedic work Natural History (completed around 77 CE), briefly mentions the Abasgians (Latin: Abasci or Ahasgi), an ancient tribe inhabiting the eastern Black Sea coast in the region of modern-day Abkhazia (western Caucasus). This reference appears in Book 6, Chapter 5 (sections 14–15), as part of his geographical survey of the peoples and regions around the Euxine Sea (Black Sea). Pliny draws on earlier Greek sources, including the geographer Arrian and the poet Lycophron, without providing extensive details on their customs, appearance, or society—consistent with his encyclopedic style, which often lists ethnic groups in a catalog-like manner rather than offering in-depth ethnography. Key Passage from Pliny's Natural History (Book 6.5.14–15) In the Loeb Classical Library translation (by H. Rackham, 1942, with minor updates for clarity): "The river Abascus flows through their [the Abasgians'] territory and empties into the Euxine Sea. They are mentioned by Lycophron and Arrian. The Apsilae border on them, and then the Abaceni, through whose territory the river Abascus flows, as mentioned above." Here, Pliny situates the Abasgians geographically: they lived along the banks of the Abascus River (likely a now-unidentified stream flowing into the Black Sea, possibly near modern Ochamchire in Abkhazia). He notes their proximity to neighboring tribes like the Apsilae (to the south) and Abaceni (possibly a variant or related group). This placement aligns with ancient accounts of the Abasgians as a Caucasian people north of Colchis (modern western Georgia) and south of the Sanigs or other Circassian groups.

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u/Rafsit 8d ago

Geographical Position Modern Location: Dioscuria is located at the site of present-day Sukhumi (also known as Sokhumi or Aqwa in Abkhaz), the capital of the disputed region of Abkhazia. Abkhazia is internationally recognized by most countries as part of Georgia but has been de facto independent since the 1992–1993 Abkhazian War, with Russian support. The coordinates of the site are approximately 43°0'N, 41°1'E. Historical Placement: It lay at the eastern extremity of the Euxine Sea (ancient name for the Black Sea), near the mouth of the small river Anthemus (modern-day Gumista River) or Charus, just north of the ancient kingdom of Colchis (associated with the myth of the Golden Fleece). Ancient sources describe it as about 100 Roman miles (or 790 stadia) northwest of the Phasis River (modern Rioni River) and 2,260 stadia from Trapezus (modern Trabzon, Turkey). The city was surrounded by estuaries, swamps, and deltas of rivers like the Gumista and Basla (Besletka), making it a natural port but vulnerable to coastal erosion.

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u/Grouchy_Detective880 8d ago

Okay, thanks for sharing.

And my next question: What information can you get from the texts you shared, except for the geographical locations of the Abazgi tribe?

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u/Rafsit 5d ago

The answer is that Abkhazians and the state of Abkhazia do have a legitimate claim on the land that is called Abkhazia in it's forms! And the other thing is;Abkhazians are the native people on the land which is called Abkhazia.🙂

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u/Grouchy_Detective880 4d ago

Under What information can you get from the texts you shared, except for the geographical locations of the Abazgi tribe? I meant that you can't assume what this tribe is. They can simply be Georgians (ancestors of Megrels or Svans).

Abkhazians and the state of Abkhazia do have a legitimate claim on the land that is called Abkhazia in it's forms!

Read carefully the texts and keep the map besides:)

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u/Mikheil3004 8d ago

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/D%27Anville._Carte_huil%C3%A9e_de_la_G%C3%A9orgie_et_de_l%27Arm%C3%A9nie.XVIIIe_si%C3%A8cle.jpg

And why does today's territory belong to you, when almost the entire present-day Abkhazia belonged to the Mengrelian? You see, that's the problem. Up to Anakopia, everything already belonged to the Georgians. There are many old maps where you can clearly see that Anakopia was Georgia or Mengrelia!

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u/LividBumblebee6873 8d ago

Wikipedia is sourcing all its content, so it can be looked up too, right?

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u/Grouchy_Detective880 8d ago

And did you look them up?

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u/LividBumblebee6873 8d ago

I didn't, but I also didn't write the comment, so I don't feel I have to. If you are interested if the source is credible than you can check it. It is there

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u/Grouchy_Detective880 7d ago

I understand your point, and you are right. You can follow the references.

But, in general, you can't trust Wikipedia in many cases, as I can just edit it and write anything I want.

+ I checked sources in shared articles, but they are referring to other modern historians.

I was asking about Strabon. Because, as far as I remember, we don't know much about Abazgi from his work, except for their geographical locations.

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u/Mikheil3004 7d ago

"Abasgoi - Wikipedia" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abasgoi#:~:text=The%20Abasgoi%20or%20Abasgians%20(Ancient,however%20suppressed%20the%20Abasgian%20revolt.&text=By%20the%206th%20century%20Abasgia,name%20%C2%ABabasgi%2C%20abaza%C2%BB

On the map you can even see that Abasgoi is not on today's Abkhazian territory.

As far as I'm concerned, Abasgoi is not Georgian, but today's territory up to Anakopia has always belonged to the Georgians.