The 8 incarnates question

[u/Charming-Annual3578]

Are the “8 Incarnates” (Nagash, Sigmar, Tyrion/Teclis, Malerion, Alarielle, Grimnir, Grungni, and Gorkamorka) still considered a thing in current Age of Sigmar lore?

Back in the early AoS days they seemed like the top-tier deities outside of Chaos, but now we’re seeing a lot of other gods rise in prominence—Valaya, Hashut, Kragnos, Morathi, etc. They don’t feel like “lesser gods” anymore, which makes me wonder: is the whole “Incarnates” concept still relevant in the lore, or has it kind of been replaced by the newer pantheon structures?

I always thought of them in 3 different ranks. 1. Chaos gods 2. Incarnates (tied to a realm. 3. Lesser gods. And i hate it if its not a thing anymore, (probably because of autism or something) i like it when everything exists within frames.

So again do the 8 incarnates have anything unique anymore?

[u/sageking14]

Grungni, Grimnir, and Gorkamorka were never Incarnates. People just assumed because the other five were Incarnates in the End Times. What made these characters 'unique' from 1E to now is that they formed the Pantheon of Order, and declared by no authority beyond their own that they were the rulers and protectors of the respective Realms they are aligned with.

I always thought of them in 3 different ranks. 1. Chaos gods 2. Incarnates (tied to a realm. 3. Lesser gods.

Never been a thing I am afraid. The only Lesser God was Adembi and he was retconned in "Prince Maesa" into not existing, and neither the original short or this novel were early AoS. When GW finally decided to make a system for gods

It was Elemental Deities - Ascended Deities - Godbeasts. With Elemental initially presented as strongest but that has been retconned this edition to actually include all the Elemental gods that were being ignored, most not powerhouses. Chaos Gods are a type of Elemental.

Just as an example Dracothion has never been presented as lesser to Sigmar, and they are both gods of Azyr. The distinction is merely Sigmar rules as God-King while Dracothion is fine being ally-advisor. In fact Grimnir and Vulcatrix being equals to the point of mutual kill, is in the first books released for the setting.

So I'm afraid to say what happened is you created a framework and tier system for the gods they never really existed in Age of Sigmar. So while there have been a lot of changes to how the actual tiers work... neither the old or new matches.

[u/Charming-Annual3578 → u/sageking14]

Ye sorry i forgot to talk about godbeasts but i would have put the strongest of them in the same rank as the incarnates with most on the level of those i called lesser gods but were in reality not as you said xd

[u/sageking14 → u/Charming-Annual3578]

Whoever is downvoting Charming-Annual. Stop it, get a life. They are just adding to the conversation and hashing out their thought processes.

[u/HammerandSickTatBro → u/sageking14]

I swear, people act like they only wanna read formatted essays that they already agree with

On reddit of all places

[u/Togetak → u/sageking14]

Gorkamorka is interesting because he seems to be intertwined with Ghur in the same way the other incarnate gods are deeply intertwined with their realms, to the point he’s made of Waagh magic and waagh magic is like… a form of ghurish magic, or at least akin to it.

I will also say that I think people’s assumptions about gorkamorka/grimnir/Grungni being incarnates of ghur/Aqysh/chamon is probably also rooted in how they’re the gods of various individuals who were incarnates at different points in the end times (often the first choice of hosts for those winds, I think?). Ungrim, the slayer king, was the first incarnate of Aqysh (gaining it in the leadup to the battle where he died and never really understanding the power he had, simply instinctively going out with a bang when he found death) while Gorkamorka’s chosen orc Grimgor was the incarnate of beasts, who also didn’t understand the power he had and just sort of wildly passively used it. Grungni is the only exception to that, but he’s so associated with chamon already that him being the odd one out seems less weird

[u/Charming-Annual3578 → u/sageking14]

Hmm im sure i read about incarnates long ago in aos. And i remember thinking it was really stupid that gorkamorka, grimnir and grungni were incarnates then as they were different before.

[u/sageking14 → u/Charming-Annual3578]

I don't recall that being the case but I am open to being proven wrong if anyone else recalls what books might have had the Gods of Order referred to as Incarnates. If that particular correction is actually incorrect on my part, would appreciate it being corrected itself.

[u/Charming-Annual3578 → u/sageking14]

I remember seeing it on some wiki as a type of god that showed them all with gorkamorka grimnir and grungni. But i think they have changed the site as they changed it more to ascended ones. 

Here is a link to a 4 year old thread about that: https://www.reddit.com/r/AoSLore/s/9mOlsN9Xky

[u/sageking14 → u/Charming-Annual3578]

You mean the Lexicanum? I don't remember what we used to use specifically but we did used to divide the template in a way to put the gods you describe in one section.

Me and some other editors argued the method was a poor one and would lead to folk misunderstanding or getting wrong impressions.

We eventually convinced everyone there was a need to change it so it was actually accurate, not just trying to list the Gods of Order on one line. Then it was changed again after new info was learned and again and again

I think it and sapients are the templates we've changed the most for being as accurate as possible while trying not to do anything that is misleading. So they are both messes. Which any good table or chart should be.

[u/Charming-Annual3578 → u/sageking14]

Ahhhh that makes sense. Thanks!

[u/Fyraltari]

Those Eight Gods are definitely the main ones at least in the mind of the people of Sigmar's Empire.

The latest Grombrindal book features a ryme about them:

One of shadow, two of light
One of craft - his brother, might
Two of beasts, body-bound
One of death, barrow-found
One of life, in greening lands
Holy Thunderer guide their hands

But at the same time it's been made explicit that their complete dominion over their realms is more aspiration than actual facts. Nagash doesn't control nearly as many afterlives as he's like.

But then again, Tyrion and Malerion cannot enter each other's domains.

So I think it's fair to say that each of them is the most powerful god tied to that specific realm (Kragnos is explicitly noted to be less powerful than Gorkamorka) but it's not that they are necessarily more tied to them than other gods or can't be replaced. In fact, with the recent revelations about the Duardin Pantheon it seems that this set up was devised by Grungni precisely to replace the previous batch of "incarnates" (his lost family).

[u/Charming-Annual3578 → u/Fyraltari]

Good enough for me!

[u/Fyraltari → u/Charming-Annual3578]

Sageking makes a good point about Dracothion and Vulcatrix being at least as powerful as Sigmar and Grimnir respectively, though.

[u/Charming-Annual3578 → u/Fyraltari]

I did forget about godbeasts and i agree that the greatest gosbeasts are on the level i thought the 8 incarnates were.

[u/Fyraltari → u/Charming-Annual3578]

There's also the Bonseplitterz' belief that each realm has a World-Spirit in the form of a particular being.

[u/Illustrious-Wrap-776 → u/Fyraltari]

That rime also leaves out Chamon entirely, though we could maybe blame that on Manfred.

The Incarnates of the End Times do seem to have an especially strong connection tot heir realms at least. In the first part of the Realmslayer: Blood of the Old World audio drama, Gotrek talks to Alarielle (I think basically in the form of a beetle or plant based hologram, if memory serves right) and says they may not be so different, to which she states that basically everything in the realm is a part of her. She also calls Grimnir her lost brother, so take that as you will.

I'm not sure the Duardin Ancestor Gods had this innate connection to the realms.

[u/Fyraltari → u/Illustrious-Wrap-776]

That rime also leaves out Chamon entirely, though we could maybe blame that on Manfred.

No it doesn't:

"One of craft [Grungni] - his brother, might [Grimnir]"

[u/Illustrious-Wrap-776 → u/Fyraltari]

Right, somehow I read that as specifying Tyrion and Teclis, but Grungni make way more sense for Craft, while completely missing that this would also meant that Aqshy is missing.

[u/Fyraltari → u/Illustrious-Wrap-776]

In fairness, it coming right after "two of light" makes it sound like it's specifying who these two are, and since it's the second line it's not already clear that this is supposed to be a list with each line being about different gods.

Which is to say I made the same mistake originally.

[u/Ok_Cry_3942 → u/Fyraltari]

Who is the second god of beasts?

[u/Fyraltari → u/Ok_Cry_3942]

It's Gork and Mork.

[u/Ok_Cry_3942 → u/Fyraltari]

Well I feel silly now

[u/Saxhleel13]

While it is not on its own important to the setting, it's worth it to point out that half of the Incarnates did become ascended gods in AoS. The other half are characters who had their soul stolen, reincarnated into a new form, or are ambiguously fated.

[u/Togetak → u/Saxhleel13]

Yeah every incarnate who got their wind and held onto it right up until the end, ended up achieving godhood in the mortal realms. The rest died long before, or had their wind bounce around a bunch of times to different hosts

[u/Argomer]

In short it's still the same.

[u/RapidWaffle]

For Grimgor I assume he didn't come back and instead Ghur became associated with GorkaMorka (who as far as I know isn't an incarnate and is still the same Gork and Mork we always knew), because Grimgor doesn't fit AoS exactly, Ironjawz are quite different from Black Orcs and Grimgor while cool is too straightforward to be as interesting as the more flexible GorkaMorka lore we do have

Though also GorkaMorka could've just bashed Grimgor's head in, who knows

[u/Fyraltari → u/RapidWaffle]

Gorkamorka is just gonna spit Grimgor back out to take the Helsmiths on, trust.

[u/RapidWaffle → u/Fyraltari]

I have to admit, I like Gordrakk way more than I like Grimgor even if he's still the goat in old fantasy, I way rather see Gordrakk's showdown against Archaon's armies or see him recombine Smasha and Cunnin' back into World Choppa to worldchop open the gates of Azyr

[u/Fyraltari → u/RapidWaffle]

I thought Gordrakk wanted Zoggrok to punch the gate open for him, but have him remake Worldchoppa so the Megaboss of all Megabosses can do it himself does sound even better.