r/AoSLore • u/Charming-Annual3578 • 2d ago
Discussion Archaon and ulgu
Do people really believe that Archaon and Malerion fought when Archaon invaded Ulgu in the age of chaos? As i read it, it was just that him and his armies got confused and mindf***ked by the realm itself (being shadow, illusion and such) and had to leave. But i see so many people thinking that they fought and Archaon lost. I do not believe it for a second and for all we know they never even met.
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u/HammerandSickTatBro Draichi Ganeth 1d ago
If you attempt to join battle against an opponent and you can neither find them nor conquer their lands, then that opponent has won and defeated you...so like, I am not sure what you are saying about Malerion not "really" beating Archaon, when he unambiguously did so.
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u/Charming-Annual3578 1d ago
Well thats not what im talking about. Ppl are saying they fought 1v1 and Archaon lost... Also i wouldnt really give that win to Malerion as from all we know he didnt do shit. It was more small random cities that was fighting and got destroyed.
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u/HammerandSickTatBro Draichi Ganeth 1d ago
Got it, though I would say that in battle and (especially) war, the idea of what individual would beat what other individual in the equivalent of a duel or arm-wrestling match is based more on comic book matchups that don't have relevance to the situation. I struggle to see when such a 1v1, superhero matchup would have happened (so in that respect I think you're right), but also don't think it matters much to the question of "can Malerion defeat Archaon". Ulgu remains unconquered and largely in the iron grip of Malerion, so it is very clear that Archaon was not able to beat the Shadowking militarily. Which I assume is part of why THE EXALTED GRAND MARSHAL OF THE APOCALYPSE has focused on breaking down the gates of Azyr, believing that doing so will cause all the Realms to dissolve into the Realm of Chaos.
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u/Charming-Annual3578 1d ago
I agree that Ulgu won the war against Archaon. So im with you. Im more tired of people on the internet arguing that Malerion is stronger than Archaon. And maybe he is, we simply do not know. But from Archaons achivements im pretty sure is the greater being for fighting. Malerion will be strong af but only to the extent of the other incarnates turned gods in my eyes.
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u/HammerandSickTatBro Draichi Ganeth 1d ago
Oh yeah, Malerion is the divine embodiment of shadow and illusion and trickery. I think it's unlikely he'll even eventually be characterized as someone who starches Archaon in terms of strength or raw power, and even if he were he'd probably never show nor admit it. Certainly nothing that's currently been written says that he is more powerful than Archaon as an individual god.
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u/Charming-Annual3578 1d ago
I needed that comment xd. Thats exactly my thoughts. The internet makes me lose my mind!
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u/Fyraltari Helsmiths of Hashut 1d ago
That is how battles are portrayed in the books and the warlords of the armies usually having the highest damage and wounds encourages this sort of things on the tabletop.
Is it realistic? No. But it's a genre convention at this point.
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u/HammerandSickTatBro Draichi Ganeth 1d ago
That is how battles are portrayed in the books
It...is? Because I have read more than a couple AoS novels. While most do climax with some kind of cinematic showdown, they also mostly show some understanding of tactics and strategies and at least pay lip service to the idea that the fortunes of a battle at large matter a great deal, even if preventing the novel's BBEG from activating their apocalyptic MacGuffin is the focus.
warlords of the armies usually having the highest damage and wounds
I mean, yes. Even if I wasn't just thinking about this making sense from a narrative perspective, I would not expect Alarielle to be, like, less strong than a random sylvaneth for example. But even on the tabletop, with a few exceptions most armies can't win a game (representing just one small part of one battle) by relying only on their big (often explicity deific) centerpiece model.
Even if we're only speaking about AoS rules, the designers of the game very clearly don't want you to come away with the idea that battles in the setting are all about one large, godlike person smacking another, large, godlike person. Nothing about the way that Malerion's been written in published fiction seems to say that he's some great brawler who could or would even want or try to take Archaon in a head-on fight, either.
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u/Fyraltari Helsmiths of Hashut 1d ago
While most do climax with some kind of cinematic showdown
Yes, that is all that I'm saying.
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u/Ok-Professor-2048 1d ago edited 1d ago
So archaon is godlike since he can defeat several gods ? Apart from the Chaos Gods themselves.
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u/Charming-Annual3578 1d ago
I dont really get what you mean, but if you are talking about Archaon not being a real god but also on the powerlevel of the gods then yes thats basically how it is. He doesnt really have a domain but the powers he gets from the chaos gods still equals what they other gods can do in combat.
Also i have no idea what you mean with chaos versionsummer...
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u/Ok-Professor-2048 1d ago
Sorry my spellcheck is going nuts. Yes you answered my question.
So technically Archaon could fight Sigmar and win. He has fought Nagash and kicked his ass.
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u/Charming-Annual3578 1d ago
Yes he has won against both Nagash and Sigmar but both were after they had exhausted alot of power. Atleast against Nagash as we know that Archaon waited until Nagash had used up alot before he entered combat with him. I dont really remember but i think its was something like that against Sigmar too.
But yes Archaon is definetly somewhere in the top 4 with sigmar, nagash and gorkamorka (other that the chaos gods)
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u/CountPeter 1d ago
It's my head canon until we hear otherwise, because Archaon beating everyone 1v1 is insanely boring.
Realistically it was certainly the armies, which sort of makes sense because I imagine Ulgu is a guerilla warfare paradise.
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u/Charming-Annual3578 23h ago
I agree that it sucks that Archaon just beats everyone with basically 0 problems but if i came up with a headcanon it wouldnt be with the dude that hasnt done anything yet. Also his power is shadow so i dont think he is the master of combat and more a utility or trickster dude.
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u/CountPeter 8h ago
I am not the biggest Malerion fan, but I think being a trickster is probably the best possible way for someone to beat Archaon without it being too straightforward. Archaon losing a battle because they think they are fighting Malerion but instead get tricked into getting lost in a maze for instance.
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u/Fyraltari Helsmiths of Hashut 6h ago
Archaon throws sword at Malerion Malerion dissipates into shadows and sword is lost Archaon: Hey, hold on a damn minute!
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u/screachinelf 2d ago
I assume the armies just struggled to invade and they just lost a lot of steam in their attempts and desire. Archaon for all intents and purposes succeeded in defeating the realms and chose to focus on cracking Azyr. If the time and dedication was put into Ulgu he’d probably succeed eventually but time doesn’t seem to be a concern for these beings anyway.
I very much don’t an actual physical fight occurred though. Archaon probably would’ve slain malerion imo. At most a fight probably would be with a proxy or some form of simulacrum.