r/AskCaucasus • u/[deleted] • 21d ago
Are the Lazs Georgian?
i see a lot of think like that in tiktok and i dont have idea why they say that
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u/RedeemG 21d ago edited 21d ago
Lazs living in Georgia are Georgians, while Lazs living in Turkey are linguistically and genetically a Georgian ethnic sub-group but they cannot be considered fully Georgian. The reason is that they have not had experience of living in a unified Georgian state (except for a couple of short historical periods), they were mostly part of Byzantine Empire, then Ottoman Empire and now Turkey. So they have diverged a bit from Georgian cultural sphere.
Though we would embrace them if they decide to move to Georgia and we would gladly accept them if they consider themselves as Georgian.
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u/xCircassian 21d ago
They are like cousins of the same family just like Turks and Azerbaijanis.
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u/MtiuliBichi 21d ago
Even more than Turks and Azerbaijanis, since Laz and Georgians share similar DNA
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u/xCircassian 21d ago
So do Turks and Azerbaijanis.
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u/MtiuliBichi 21d ago
Nop, Azeris have more Iranian DNA, while Turks have predominantly Anatolian
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u/xCircassian 16d ago
Not all Azeris. You are generalizing. Im speaking for ethnic Turkic Azerbaijanis not the Iranians.
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u/Consistent-Car-5910 Georgia 21d ago
Turks don't even share DNA with Turks.
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u/xCircassian 16d ago
Who asked you? Yes we do. Im Turkish and I get different Turkic groups in my dna test, so do other Turks. Worry about your own people.
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u/Consistent-Car-5910 Georgia 16d ago
xCircassian worrying about how Turkish he is... Shut the fuck up Turkified Circassian.
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u/Character_Progress71 21d ago
Yes and no. The Georgian nation itself includes many ethnic and sub-ethnic groups. And Lazs technically are one of the ethnic groups of Georgian nation. However Lazs unlike other Georgian ethnic groups developed their own National identity and because of that a number of them don’t consider themselves Georgian but rather as strictly Laz. This is because the lands where Lazs live previously was under Georgian Kingdom, however later on Turks took it away, thus separating the Lazs from the rest of the Georgians and from Georgian cultural and political sphere. But Lazs didn’t stop existing afterwards, instead they developed their own national-ethnic identity, separate from the rest of the Georgians. And that’s why most the Lazs view themselves as more of a their own nation rather than an ethnic group of bigger nation. At least this is my understanding…
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u/djoou 21d ago
It depends on how you define these words. When nationalism spread in these parts of the world 19th century onwards, people tried to define various nationalities in diifferent ways. Some Georgian nationalists proposed a historical-cutural approach, which related to or included every people who in this or that way are connected to the Kartlian folk (people of the capital, basically) somehow. Not all relations were/are relevant of course if you asked these thinkers, so there are different types.
Linguistically, Laz (plus Megrelian) isn't mutually intelligible with no Georgian dialect. Here example 1, example 2, and example 3 with text. For some speakers Spanish and Italian are somewhat mutually intelligible, but a Spainard is a Spainard, and an Italian is an Italian. Before nationalist ideas emerged and spread, no Laz ever said 'ma kartveli vore'. And Georgians who lived right next to them did not relate them to themselves, surely knowing the linguistic connection.
But if you want the essence, it's a political thing. Whether people realize it or not, it has political consequences; we are still in the age of nations, and one of these have its own nationstate. It is not simply an indicator of citizenhood, if that would be the case, noone would be considered Georgian if they weren't a citizen of Georgia. And if you are a 'Georgian' who lives in one's 'historical' homeland, the 'real' Georgians with governments can have claims on you, and intervene in others' affairs. That's what Russia does in Estonia, or Turkey in Thrace, or North Ossetians in Samachablo (aka South Ossetia). And if there aren't the connections between your nation and the target region's population, just make up a historical claim, as once Turks claimed that Kurds and all Meskhetians are actually of Turkic descent. There you go with Abkhazians par example. And now I guess I made enough people confused and angry at the same time.
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u/Bordothebuilder 21d ago
They are. Laz and Megrelian language are very similar. Only difference is politics
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u/PuzzleheadedAnt8906 21d ago
They speak a Kartvelian language that related to Georgian but they are a distinct group. They were one with Georgians at SOME point in history a long time ago but that doesn't make them the same today.
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u/GeorgeBrilliant 21d ago edited 21d ago
If I ask this question to the Georgian people, the answer will be - yes.
But perhaps a few thousand Laz living in Georgia consider themselves ordinary Georgians, while Turkish Laz do not.
The issue here is neither in language, nor in history, nor in genetics, because the Abkhazians living in the territory controlled by Georgia also consider themselves Georgians, but the Abkhazians of Abkhazia do not.
I've also heard from some Armenians and Azerbaijanis that they consider Georgians, and some don't even have a Georgian surname.
Even the Kists would have become Georgians if it weren't for the Wahhabism that has spread in the last few decades.
P.s. The formation of identity depends on many factors, the main one being political influence. This does not mean that Georgians are trying to Georgianize these peoples. This is simply part of the natural process and they are not taught in schools that they are Georgians. The only exception is the issue of Abkhazians, where it is considered that Abkhazians were and are Georgians(even at the school level).
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u/lasttimechdckngths Europe 21d ago
Even the Kists would have become Georgians if it weren't for the Wahhabism that has spread in the last few decades.
... They'd be staying Vainakh still, but be civic nationals at best.
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u/GeorgeBrilliant 21d ago
Linguistically, yes, but in Georgia the linguistic factor is sometimes not a decisive factor (for example, there are facts about Tsova-Tushetians and Abkhazians).
There are Georgianized Kists here, and not a few of them.
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u/Chezameh2 Europe 21d ago
Laz are a Kartvelian people, so yes they're linguistically & genetically related to Georgian groups.