r/AskEurope • u/amfoolishness France • 5d ago
Education What european country has the best higher education system for neurodivergents?
I guess you can already answer without reading, I'd rather get your first answers than none at all because you decided it was too long to read ^^' but if you care to, let me explain: I live in France, I'm not French.
TLDR; How are the education systems and culture different? in terms of flexibility, assessment, pedagogy & interactiveness, counselling...
I came to study: I finished my bachelor's in France, completed a Master's program but because of a very shitty internship and tutors, I didn't get my Master's diploma, so I haven't been able to work in that field. I'd like to validate that diploma. However, my experience with French uni (and workplace to be honest) has been... a bit traumatic, it really took a toll on me. Might be culture shock, idk. Very traditional, hierarchical, square... Last year I realized a lot of my difficulties came from actually having ADD, so those 3 adjectives are particularly difficult for me to fit into. I am currently medicated so I have gotten better about things, strategies and stuff, but I don't see myself going back to French uni, going through their crappy pedagogy (lectures, lack of participation... - sorry, i work in uni too now, i see it first hand).
I was wondering about studying somewhere else in the EU, ideally an English course I guess, (I do like learning languages, I speak 3 and am learning a 4th, I just don't know if I'd get to another academic fluency - already in French people say I write the way I speak and while it's correct I indeed am not great with formal syntax). How are the education systems and culture different? Example the Dutch have good studying opportunities but I heard they can be very brutal with feedback. The Germans... scare me a bit? x) with their deal with punctuality and such I'm worried they can also be rigid... Sorry for these examples, I admit I don't know that much about them so it's just impressions and worries that maybe you can help dispel :)
Sorry for the long context question. Thanks for reading.
(optional reading) As a tangent : I have a temporary visa, I hope to get citizenship in like 3-4 years. (Been living here for 11, 6 of which as a student, the rest as a partner, only been married for 2, need to be married for 4-5 to ask for nationality that way, so I'm waiting) My question on this tangent, just in case anyone knows, is if I study somewhere else in Europe, will my visa status allow me to benefit from european uni fees and not be labeled non-EU therefore paying thousands? Or am I right in waiting until I have citizenship.
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u/gmennert Netherlands 5d ago
You can get extra time on tests and the study as a whole if you have diagnosed ADD in the Netherlands. But i think it’s just the ADD that makes it hard everywhere. I got diagnosed 2 years into uni and still fumbled a lot of years.
Could also try to work a couple of years in a similar but accessible with bachelor job. And then do a masters.
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u/amfoolishness France 5d ago
I was wondering how it was on the pedagogical side, if it's interactive classes or just teachers doing lectures for example. Continuous task assessment or one big final, that type of thing.
Thanks for answering :)
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u/106002 5d ago
NOT Italy. It's all frontal lessons and memorizing theory and/or exercises for one big test (written, oral or in two stages, first written then oral) at the end of the semester or the year. At least they allow you to fail as many times as you want without having to take your classes again.
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u/amfoolishness France 5d ago
Yep, that sounds like France. Without the last part. Thanks for answering :)
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u/FoxyOctopus Denmark 5d ago
There is a lot of support both financially but also extra counselling with tutors that are knowledgeable about neurodivergence in denmark. But you need to have a formal diagnosis and the process of applying for help can be a bit tedious for some people.
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u/amfoolishness France 5d ago
Thank you for this info! :)
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u/FoxyOctopus Denmark 5d ago
You're welcome, let me know if you have any questions regarding studying as a neurodivergent person here. I have adhd and just finished my bachelors with a lot of support from the system. Although I'm a native dane so I can unfortunately only talk about what it's like as a native for the most part. But I know that many of these things are also available to foreigners. For example as a European citizen you can get paid to study in denmark, you just need to have a part time job next to your study to be eligible to get financial aid from the government, but there might be exceptions for neuroduvergent folks but I'm not sure.
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u/_iamisa_ Germany 5d ago
I did my master’s in Norway and loved it there. I’m about 90% sure I have ADHD and it turns out a lot of my international classmates have ADHD as well. I think we all got along with the Norwegian system very well. In my university it was fairly small classes, very discussion and group work based and barely any lectures that were just frontal.
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u/Grouchy_Fan_2236 Hungary 5d ago
Well, looking at the biographies of mathematicians and physicists that came from the Göttingen or Heidelberg schools you'll notice that many of them were neurodivergents relative to the age they lived in. But that doesn't mean these universities weren't strict or difficult.
In fact I'm struggling to see why you think a relaxed and ultra-tolerant educational system would help someone with ADHD/ADD spectrum disorders - such an approach would only benefit the most neurotypical. Students with disabilities achieve much better results if they have to compete in an environment with pre-codified rules rather than obeying generic societal norms.
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u/PositionCautious6454 Czechia 5d ago edited 5d ago
It really deppends how neurodivergent you are and if you have been diagnosed somehow. If you have oficial document stating that you need specific support measures, Czech schools are obliged to provide them. This also applies to all disabilities. They can adjust lights or make you a voice recording, if you are too sensitive to attend normal lectures in bright classroom for example.
Every school in our country is different, as are every teacher and every department. If you choose an arts program, the teaching will be more individualized and less authoritarian. Teachers often select specific students in whom they see potential and work with them throughout their studies on friendly basis. If you choose a technical or scientific field, it will usually be very structured and organised. For example sometimes you cant even choose subjects, they just give you your timetable. The funny thing is that there are many neurodivergent people on the autistic spectrum in this field who preffer this.
When it comes to being precise and punctual, I don't think anyone would tolerate slackers. Deadlines simply have to be met. You can get a quiet place to take the exam, have oral exam instead of wtitten, or more time to write the test, but but if you don't attend the lectures or dont or fail to submit your work on time, you will fail the subject.
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u/UnrulyCrow FR-CAT 5d ago
Autistic French here, yes the country sucks when it comes to neurodivergence. I've had a heavy suspicion of c-ptsd for a while now, related to both school and the workplace.
About working, even with a RQTH (Reconnaissance Qualité de Travailleur Handicapé), I struggle to just get some sort of help as work, even though I legally qualify for accomodations. Note that my current employer enjoys the tax cut from my RQTH lol but me? I am currently in a horrible shape, both physically and mentally. And I get zero help, I've already reached out to my union and at this point, I am considering making preparations in case something happens to me, just so my employer can be legally put in hot waters.
Sorry I can't help with your question, OP, but I fully empathise with your situation.
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u/Certain_Pattern_00 5d ago
I would assume that Finland in general would be the moat neurodivergent / autistic friendly country in Europe. Not sure a not higher education though. You are left pretty alone to study, really would not be great for aome.neurodivergents. Would check out Lappeenranta University of Technology or LUT though. Some of the smaller universities have better resources and more student-supportive.
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u/SomeoneSomewhere1984 -> 5d ago
Berlin is the opposite of punctual. Rush hour doesn't end till 11 hand shops often open an hour after the posted time.
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u/Lutgardys Poland 5d ago
I have adhd and autism and have had an extremely positive experience getting my MA in Poland, though idk if thats due to polish culture or my faculty just being really good.
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u/Tatis_Chief Slovakia 5d ago
Not Slovakia. Because apparently if you are not diagnosed as a kid there is no way you can be autistic or ADHD.
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u/nordzeekueste 2d ago
Certainly not the Netherlands. They aren’t very accommodating to neurodivergent to begin with, and a few more minutes for a test won’t make up for the rest.
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u/TheYearOfThe_Rat France 5d ago
None, the reality is that this is tied down to culture - you will have a better experience in Scandinavia, because historically less people = persons, as individuals, are more valuable, but less people = more nepotism and more attachment to the locality, so you will always be at best a "local French weirdo" , sure you'd maybe even have a family, but you will always be "it" (and that's good).
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u/Cicada-4A Norway 5d ago
Having attention difficulties qualify as a neurodivergence now? I mean the whole concept is laughably stupid but I thought it was primarily to describe the autism.
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u/CompetitiveSleeping Sweden 5d ago
Ever heard of ADHD, for example? Neurodivergence includes more than "the autism".
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u/InterestingTank5345 Denmark 5d ago
Yea, we are just the major reason why there's so many institutions for Neurodivergents. But I do want to add about 70% of people with ADHD have ASD and most offers, at least here in Denmark, are for autistic people.
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u/liang_zhi_mao 5d ago
Yes, several diagnoses and symptoms aren’t neurotypical. These are commonly referred to as neurodivergence or even neurodiversity.
This includes all forms of learning problems such as dyslexia or dyscalculia, dyspraxia but also ADHD and the autism spectrum.
These people usually think and behave differently because their brain handles information differently.
None of these diagnoses are disorders or disabilities and it usually says nothing about the intelligence of people who have it.
Last but not least people usually have several of these things to different degrees because they are linked with each other and there is a certain comorbidity.
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u/Ok_Necessary_8923 5d ago edited 5d ago
Honestly, you are just describing the ADHD experience with academia / universities in general. If you find the French experience a bit much... the Dutch and the Germans aren't going to be any more forgiving. Both are very rigid, in the box cultures in my experience (have lived in NL, have had a good number of friends living in or from DE over the years).
If you move out, you'll likely no longer be able to count that time for citizenship. I'm not familiar with the French naturalization rules, but that's usually how it works. Or there is a de facto max time out of the country before it counts against you, etc. It really depends.
Can't say on the EU/non-EU fees. If your residency is through your partner and are considered an ordinary resident, then maybe. That is certainly the case in Spain with many things, it's resident vs non-resident, as opposed to citizen vs non-citizen, but you'd have to check the specific university/country/residency arrangement.
I'd sit tight if I were you. Do an online program if you want exposure to somewhere else, or a summer program within whatever residency limits won't affect your naturalization application. Get your EU citizenship. Then consider other plans.