r/AskEurope • u/Twinks4StSebastian • 5h ago
Misc How exactly do those little fella countries work in the 21st century?
I’m talking about countries like Luxembourg, Lichtenstein, and San Marino. I understand the deal with Monaco. But as for those guys?
I’m absolutely baffled about the everyday workings of countries like this. Wouldn’t they be insanely expensive to live in? How do they maintain distinct cultural/linguistic/political identities with so few people? How do resources get produced when the territory is so limited? How do they even have independent economies? What exactly keeps the populations stable?
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u/PrijsRepubliek Netherlands 5h ago edited 3h ago
Considering resources: hardly any country is autarkic. But still, in theory, size of the country and population do not matter, as long as the ratio of the land is large enough to sustain the people that live on it. That ratio is as relevant for Luxembourg as it is for Poland. It would be interesting so calculate how many Popes Vatican city could sustain given it's area of less than 1 square km.
[EDIT: fix typos]
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u/UruquianLilac Spain 4h ago
hardly any
Not hardly any, none.
Also kudos for the use of autarky in the wild. I had to look it up and all.
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u/Turbulent-Act9877 4h ago edited 2h ago
Then you must have not paid much attention to history lessons at school. Franco tried to make Spain autarkic and failed, as usual. That's even the name of a period of his regime. Yet another fascist failure
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u/UruquianLilac Spain 3h ago
I know what "self sufficient" is, and that would be the word I would use, and I know what Franco tried to do. I just never came across this specific word before. You did not need to use "not paid much attention" for no reason whatsoever here. It's a new word for me, and I was happy to acknowledge that.
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u/amunozo1 Spain 2h ago
I think he means that it's the word taught in school for that. It's like the official denomination for that period.
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u/Mercy--Main EU - Spain - Madrid 1h ago
We definitely learn that when talking about Franco in school lol
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u/UruquianLilac Spain 1h ago
I know what he means. It's irrelevant. He's being a massive dick about something that he didn't need to at all. I didn't go to school in Spain. I learned a new word. He can chill a bit.
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u/Turbulent-Act9877 2h ago
In Spain the word autarky is mentioned many times in the text books, even in secondary
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u/UruquianLilac Spain 2h ago
I didn't go to school in Spain.
Why is this affecting you so much?
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u/Turbulent-Act9877 2h ago
That explains your ignorance. If you think this is affecting me you are definitely projecting
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u/Dykam Netherlands 2h ago
Not knowing a specific term, while knowing the concept and a different phrase for the same thing, is so far from ignorant. You should recalibrate your ignorometer.
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u/Turbulent-Act9877 2h ago
He claims to be Spanish, at least he has the Spanish flag here, and yet he doesn't know one of the main words of the francoist regime, that's very ignorant. But I don't expect you, a foreigner, to understand that
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u/Dykam Netherlands 2h ago
If all Spanish teachers are high-and-mighty like you, I can see why someone wouldn't listen in class. Your tone makes it hard to trust your words.
That said, they already said they didn't go to school in Spain. There's more reasons to flight a Spanish flag other than going to school.
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u/zeviea United Kingdom 2h ago
You are just coming across as rude
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u/Turbulent-Act9877 2h ago
He claims to be Spanish, at least he has the Spanish flag here, and yet he doesn't know one of the main words of the francoist regime, that's very ignorant. But I don't expect you, a foreigner, to understand that
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u/LuckyLoki08 Italy 3h ago
Same as Mussolini in Italy.
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u/Turbulent-Act9877 3h ago
With the difference that while Mussolini ended up dead hanging head down like a chorizo, Franco died peacefully without facing any responsibility for his crimes
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u/LuckyLoki08 Italy 3h ago
Yes, but unfortunately he ended like that simply because we had the right occasion (he was on the wrong side of the war and then tried to escape), and those who got him decided to not obey US orders but killed him instead.
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u/Turbulent-Act9877 2h ago
Killing him was the right thing to do, he was doubtlessly a criminal, otherwise the gringos would have used him and he might have just gone to prison
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u/CubistChameleon Germany 4h ago
Luxembourg doesn't really fit in with those others, it's small, but still had almost twice the population of Iceland and a 100 billion dollar GDP (with a population of less than 700,000).
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u/Twinks4StSebastian 38m ago
I’m wondering how they have such a GDP though. Also, I deliberately didn’t include islands since the historical reasons for why they’re occupied vary and they don’t exactly have a say in their borders.
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u/Tortoveno Poland 5h ago
Liechtenstein finally recognizes its nemesis, Czechia.
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u/lolidkwtfrofl Liechtenstein 4h ago
Funniest shit ever that fight.
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u/lolidkwtfrofl Liechtenstein 4h ago
For us, we live off of industry, mostly. Percentage based, we are actually one of, if not the most industrialized nations.
Day to day doesn‘t vary wildly away from our neighbours. We speak a similar dialect. Rivalries between different villages are nowadays (mostly) jokingly done.
Raw materials are all imported, we do not really have extraction capabilities, apart from a few quarries.
It is pretty expensive to live here, but the country lets barely anyone in, which keeps rent semi-stable and we do not have inflation.
It‘s also one of the few countries globally with no external debt at all. This is facilitated through having more jobs than there are people (many come in to work).
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u/munrocraig United Kingdom 3h ago
but the country lets barely anyone in
Isn't Liechtenstein in the Schengen Area? How far do you go to keep people 'out'. Do you face restrictions in other Schegnen Area countries because of this?
I visited your country in June for the Scotland match. Beautiful country, btw.
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u/lolidkwtfrofl Liechtenstein 2h ago
It‘s a green card system. Lots of people work here, very few get to move.
Nah this was actually the compromise with the EEC, before this, no one got in unless married in.
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u/Masty1992 Ireland 1h ago
What about your cultural identity, are you encouraged to marry other people from Liechtenstein or is it accepted that the culture is broadly Germanic? Are you encouraged to live your whole life in Liechtenstein or is it common for young people to emigrate?
I guess I’m trying to picture if the people currently there are descended from the same people that initially inhabited the place, which I assume is the case, but also if that will continue to be the case indefinitely.
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u/lolidkwtfrofl Liechtenstein 57m ago
It's very common to emigrate, at least for part of your life, as the good universities are mostly in other countries. FL does have an university, but its ... limited in scope.
Reg. marrying, it depends. There are obviously more or less conservative people, but mostly in matters of love, nationalism is not that prevalent. In all other matters, nationalism is VERY prevalent.
We do not feel "germanic", more alemannic, as germanic nowadays is a very ... loaded term.
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u/GeronimoDK Denmark 5h ago edited 15m ago
The don't have distinct languages (except luxembourgsish), they may have dialect though, I don't know enough about that.
I don't think any countries produce all the resources they need/use, not even the US.
Luxembourg is also a lot bigger than you may think, they have lots of agriculture and produce wine.
That said, of course they have to import a lot of stuff, I'm not sure what they export, but I know Luxembourg is big on banking/investments.
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u/Nuclear_eggo_waffle 5h ago
luxembourg does have its own language though, Luxembourgish
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u/Equal-Flatworm-378 Germany 5h ago
Yes, I know it’s considered as own language now, but originally it’s one of the German dialects.
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u/UruquianLilac Spain 4h ago
The difference between a language and a dialect is always political, not linguistic.
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u/helmli Germany 4h ago
I've read numerous times in language subs: "A language is a dialect with an army." Though that doesn't appear to be true for English yet.
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u/Aidian 4h ago
For good or ill, American English would disagree.
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u/helmli Germany 4h ago
That's what I was referring to – I've only ever seen it described as "variety" or "dialect" of English, never as its own language (like Austrian Standard German and Swiss Standard German are considered varieties of German just like German Standard German; but Dutch and Luxembourgish are considered to be their own languages).
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u/UruquianLilac Spain 3h ago
There's the thing, it's all about history, oppression, and asserting identity. Americans are not facing oppression or discrimination for their variety of English, and no one is making them feel that their variety is inferior or subjugated to the "real" English. They have all the military and cultural clout and to all intents and purposes their variety of English has become the universal standard. There is zero pressure to claim an identity that is explicitly distinct from British English.
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u/50thEye Austria 3h ago
Yup, the Bavarian Dialects (spoken in Bavaria, most of Austria, and South Tyrol) are linguistically more distinct from High German than Norwegian and Danish are from each other, but socially it's not seen as another language. Maybe also because Bavarian (german: Bairisch) isn't standardised and there's also never really been a need to set Austria/Bavaria apart from the rest lf the German states.
Makes me wonder about a possible alternate history scenario where this did happen to us after WW1/2 to make the Austrian identity even more distinct from the German one. Wonder if that was ever considered.
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u/Wafkak Belgium 3h ago
I think there actually was an abandoned plan after WWl to have Bavaria become part of Austria. Maybe in that scenario Autria sets up its own standardisation of German.
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u/Big_Dirty_Piss_Boner Austria 45m ago
Maybe in that scenario Autria sets up its own standardisation of German.
Austria HAS their own standardisation of Austrian German. It's just not recognized as a standalone language.
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u/Prior_Coconut2575 4h ago
And French is a Latin dialect.
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u/Equal-Flatworm-378 Germany 4h ago
How different is luxembourgisch from Mosel-fränkisch today? I don’t think it’s as different as french and latin?
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u/Aranka_Szeretlek 4h ago
Well for one, Luxembourgish has a lexicology, and a hella confusing one. Mosel-fränkisch speakers will understand spoken Luxembourgish alright, but will struggle to read it.
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u/Sh_Konrad Ukraine 32m ago
My friend was recently in Luxembourg and had a hard time finding books in Luxembourgish in stores.
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u/Prior_Coconut2575 4h ago
False Luxembourg has Luxembourgish as its official language. It's even the language spoken by children
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u/Aranka_Szeretlek 4h ago
Lol Luxembourg is full of farmers, its not really a little fella country
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u/SpiderGiaco in 3h ago
Fun fact: there have been more Luxembourgish winners of the Tour de France in the past 30 years than French ones.
On a more serious note, all of them have some degree of free taxation that attracts capital, not much diverse than Monaco, really. The also all have deals with the big neighbouring countries, they never have hard borders and some economical stuff is directly chained to them - for instance San Marino uses the euro. Luxembourg has double the population of Iceland. It's actually much bigger than the other three countries you mentioned and I think it doesn't really belong in the same group as the other microstates.
Luxembourg is a big financial center, it has some EU-related institutions (the court of justice, for instance) and historically was an industrial country, with many steel factories, some still active. The country is expensive, but salaries are very high and mostly tax-free. It's full of people living on the border and commuting inside the country, as the higher salary from Luxembourg feels even higher in Belgium, France and Germany. Culturally there are some distinct elements, although they swing a bit between French and German cultures, with most people speaking fluently at least one of the languages, plus Luxembourgish. It's actually a pretty diverse country and full of foreign nationals, notably Portuguese ones.
San Marino has less of a distinct culture, it's very linked with Italy. Locals speak with the same dialect of people in nearby Romagna. It's basically a small town that self-govern itself. It has a consular system with two heads of state selected among citizens. Basically everyone of the 30k citizens can be head of state - nowadays it's mostly symbolic and it is a six month mandate.
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u/Awkward-Feature9333 5h ago
How many countries do have independent economies? Most do some amount of international trade.
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u/Twinks4StSebastian 32m ago
By independent I’m referring to the ability to not be overwhelmingly dependent on imports and other pitfalls small island nations have. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.
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u/LittBoloMestNese Norway 5h ago
The same way you and your family have your distinct culture, language/dialects and identities. I bet you sometime go to supermarket to buy stuff. I would even go so far as to guess, you might earn money through a job.
It’s not that deep, bro.
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u/Twinks4StSebastian 29m ago
This is kinda rude especially because I’m more interested in the anthropology aspects and general logistics of how these things are able to be maintained rather than assimilate. My family is extremely assimilated. Dialect is complicated in our case. I’m wondering about what exactly the economy is centered around in such a small, independent country.
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u/BringBackSoule Romania 5h ago
You ever seen how different sounding British accents are even though they live like less than an hour drive from eachother? Basically that but with a different history. They didnt end up getting conquered(at least not permanently) and grouped up in a bigger empire\kingdom
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u/die_kuestenwache Germany 5h ago
They are tax havens. That's most their primary business model.
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u/Veilchengerd Germany 5h ago
Not necessarily. Liechtenstein mainly lives off its industry. San Marino isn't a tax haven, either.
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u/lolidkwtfrofl Liechtenstein 4h ago
Yea Ignorance on full display here again…
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u/die_kuestenwache Germany 4h ago
I mean, just lowering the taxes for industry and then having Swiss and German companies set up their factories and having half of the people working there come from Germany and Switzerland anyway is a kind of tax haven. But fine, Liechtenstein just eases the tax burden on local companies it doesn't help large multinationals avoid them entirely.
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u/Tuepflischiiser 4h ago
Deciding on lower taxes to attract business is something Germany could do as well. Actually, this applies to taxes on persons as well. I really don't get it why this is slandered all the time.
The fact is, countries choose their fiscal policies and several approaches can work. But some definitely don't.
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u/lolidkwtfrofl Liechtenstein 4h ago
I mean you kinda have to force some development, there are almost no other incentives to come to FL that arent tay based
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u/TywinDeVillena Spain 5h ago
Every single one of them, and the same applies to a lot of British overseas territories
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u/lolidkwtfrofl Liechtenstein 4h ago
Nope, not a tax haven anymore. Much less than NL or IE.
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u/zen_arcade2 Italy 57m ago
That's not an accusation, that's just how these countries were set up to be.
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u/lolidkwtfrofl Liechtenstein 53m ago
Well FL might've been a tax haven in the past, but not anymore. Trying to pretend it is is just slander at this point.
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u/gumbrilla -> The Netherlands 1h ago
Identity is easy. Maastricht has it's own identity, it's own accent, it's own way of doing things vs Randstad. Or Liverpool, or wherever.
Obviously you need a niche, so you don't end up impoverished. So you're sitting next to absolutely massive rich countries, well you make yourself competitive. Find where there's a gap, be it tax, or banking, gambling, or shipping, or some other regulation, and even a small trickle from Germany or Switzerland, or France.. is a flood of money for your little principality.
That success drives up the exchange rate, so you pay people more, and they import everything they need.
It's all services. And your population is fine, because your money goes a long way. People want to live there (see the gap), and there are jobs servicing that, transport, shops, and all that.
Even works for larger, could argue Ireland is the same, just with Tech.
I think you are thinking in terms of industry, when the first world has moved to services - much more lucrative.
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u/Twinks4StSebastian 26m ago
This is definitely the most thorough explanation, thankies! Also, I was thinking of both industry and services, I just wasn’t sure what exact services they would specialize in to the point where people are willing to go to other countries for those services.
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u/prooijtje Netherlands 5h ago
I assume you don't own a lot of land to cultivate, so how do you grow enough food to survive OP?