r/AskTheCaribbean • u/CompetitiveTart505S Caribbean American • Apr 28 '25
Culture Does racism between Caribbean people disappear in the diaspora
For example growing up I was never under the impression there were conflicts between Indo and Afro Caribbean people, because the Indo Caribbean people I met were all very nice and emphasized that we're all Caribbean.
I also have a Dutch friend who explained that Surinamese people seem pretty united in the Netherlands regardless of race, but this is an outsider looking in of course.
What do you guys think? Does this imply that ethnic tensions are more superficial, or is it really not that significant? Do you all have any contradictory or complementary experiences?
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u/Professional-Plan153 Apr 28 '25
Im just speaking from my personal experience but I feel like theres racial tension between Indo and Black Caribbean people in Surniame, Guyana and Trinidad because of the british due to colonialism and that ignorance that was put onto them just stayed there. Whereas in Jamaica, I feel like that just doesnt happen but maybe I just havent noticed it 🤷🏽♀️.
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u/Joshistotle Apr 28 '25
The ethnic divisions in Guyana were fomented by the British initially, and then in recent decades by the CIA : https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/07/31/guyana-cia-meddling-race-riots-phantom-death-squad-ppp/ Their own declassified documents reveal they literally spent millions of dollars on operations to destabilize Guyana and promote racial divisions.
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u/Easy-Carrot213 Apr 28 '25
Well we also can’t ignore the elephant in the room which is the anti-Blackness that is inherent in Indian culture. I’m not saying this to be offensive but it’s an unspoken truth.
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u/Drega001 Apr 28 '25
If the British are involved they're will always be chaos
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May 02 '25
even before Britian. You have cultures from western asia who have been racist for centuries
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u/Retrophoria Apr 29 '25
India in the modern world is the case in point. Very much a product of Britain
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u/Retrophoria Apr 29 '25
Colonialism is a factor. There were issues and conflicts in Jamaica but not at the level of say GT or TNT
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May 02 '25
cause Indians come western Asia. Indians are for centuries have bein racist to many people. Have you heard of the caste system in India. Its not the black people its the indians. Indians like pale, white skinned people
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u/One_Butterscotch9835 Jun 30 '25
Nope it exist in JA just on a smaller scale because there are less indo Caribbean people
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u/govtkilledlumumba Apr 28 '25
Hell no
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u/Square-Ad-8001 Apr 28 '25
In Haiti I feel there is conflict between lighter and darker Haitians which is sad and why I think the country is so divided
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u/nusquan Apr 28 '25
lol it’s like that everywhere in the Caribbean. Don’t just put that on Haitian.
It’s called colorism. It’s global my guy
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u/govtkilledlumumba Apr 28 '25
That’s not true. Majority of the white or Arab Haitians have fled the country to the United States. During Papa Doc’s regime he exiled them because they controlled a lot of power and opposed him.
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Apr 28 '25
Guyanese-Americans are still very racist people.
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u/Retrophoria Apr 29 '25
This is a generalization. Who are they racist to?
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Apr 29 '25
The Indo-Guyanese population of NYC, which is the largest population outside of Guyana, is filled with individuals who hold racist sentiment against people of African descent, especially Afro-Guyanese and African Americans.
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u/Independent-Cellist9 May 04 '25
As an indo Guyanese girl from nyc, the elders are so fucking racist. I’m dating a black Guyanese man and they’re giving me hell. 😭Like WE ARE FROM THE SAME COUNTRY
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u/Retrophoria Apr 29 '25 edited Apr 29 '25
African Americans? Yeah OK. Indo Caribbeans African Americans barely have a history of competition over resource scarcity. Stop making shit up
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Apr 29 '25
I didn’t say anything wrong or controversial.
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u/Retrophoria Apr 29 '25
I don't respect people who think stereotypically and have no data to back up claims. Im indo carib and married to a Black woman with a child. There are many other examples. Don't make your "reality" skew other people's norms of what people in our communities do. You speak divisively and with a colonizers mindset
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Apr 30 '25
You are not evidence of anything.
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u/Retrophoria Apr 30 '25
Ok I'm respectfully ending there. I hope you can one day not generalize and have an open mind. And yes I'm aware of the history of tension between various ethnic groups. But guess what? I'm choosing to do better and not replicate the bigotry of those before me. For the sake of my child who will have an example and I pray he does better than some of the instances you are alluding to
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May 01 '25
The question was not asking if you personally hold racist sentiments. Please reread properly before getting yourself so worked up.
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u/Brave_Ad_510 Dominican Republic 🇩🇴 Apr 28 '25
Not at all. In certain cases they might put differences aside if they're a small minority in a country as a means of protection. This historically happened with some groups in NYC for example to protect from more established ethnic groups.
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u/Bouldershoulders12 Guyana 🇬🇾 Apr 28 '25 edited Apr 28 '25
It’s not as bad but it still persists in America more subtly.
In NYC indo caribbeans tend to live mostly in indo caribbean neighborhoods whereas Afro caribbeans can live in any borough just fine. Most indo Guyanese and Trini live in queens with a small percentage in Brooklyn or Bronx. Most Afro Caribbean reside in Brooklyn but a good amount live in the Bronx and Queens and a decent amount in Harlem .
Even in the party scene indo caribbean ppl tend to only go to clubs and events that are mostly indo Caribbean. You’ll find 1-2 that are in fetes that have all island ppl but it’s rare. I usually stick out in a lot of events because I’m indo guyanese and a majority of my friends are Afro caribbean from different islands but most other islands are very welcoming and ive never felt excluded . Whereas my Afro caribbean friends get weird stares if we were to go to a fete in queens.
And when it comes to relationships I’d say most families are still against interracial marriages. But it’s not as bad as back home. I’d say things are slightly more liberal now. My family has had plenty of interracial marriages over the decades and a lot of my cousins are Dougla so it’s not taboo. All of my serious LTR’s have been with Afro caribbean women but that’s my anecdotal experience but being objective most indo caribbean ppl I know tend to only marry other indo caribbean ppl or an occasional white person.
I’d say it’s more Indo Caribbean ppl sticking amongst themselves for the most part . Because honestly most of the island ppl in NYC are pretty welcoming .
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u/Retrophoria Apr 29 '25
Residential segregation was more true in the 90s and 00s. Caribbean people will seek each other fast when people start lumping Indo Guyanese with other brown people like Bangladeshi and other recent immigrants who culturally have nothing in common with us. I say this as a Indo-Caribbean with some Black heritage that grew up in the Bronx. I was quicker to be associated with any Caribbean person rather than some FOB from India for example. Even the club scene in Queens is somewhat diverse. I remember meeting Dominicans, Haitians, etc when I would club in Jamaica. If you go to like Richmond Hill, then obviously you'll see majority Indo-Caribbean people. I think since the 2010s, the "racism" is just not what it is back home and sure the marriages may be taboo but the modern generations are way more accepting and the parents are as well imo.
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u/Bouldershoulders12 Guyana 🇬🇾 Apr 29 '25
I think the modern generation are more liberal minded but I think being objective it wouldn’t be accurate to say a majority of indo caribbeans (particularly Guyanese and Trini’s) to be as open. The older generation in particular still kind of have that prejudice in them. It isn’t as overt but in circumstantial situations or behind closed doors it’s there. But things are slowly improving every decade.
I have a couple of indo jamaican friends and even a mixed indo/afro Lucian friend and there seems to be better relations overall between indo/afro compared to a indo Guyanese or Trini
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u/Retrophoria Apr 29 '25
The older gen are literally dying off man. The ones still alive are being lumped in with groups that xenophobic America hates so it's become a survival of the fittest mindset. I know when I was a kid in the 90s, the bigotry was more prevalent. I think actual racism and discrimination is not a common occurrence in American between Indo-Caribbeans. Within NYC, I do agree that Indo Guyanese groups have a territorialism and superiority complex but I know many who are friendly with others and marrying outside of their own group
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u/topboyplug98 Trinidad & Tobago 🇹🇹 Apr 28 '25
yeah we go our separate ways when we leave trinidad and never interact again unless we have no choice but to
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u/Dependent_onPlantain Apr 28 '25
Spun my head in Brooklyn in the early 00s, when the friends I linked up with said "yeah, they're all indian here, but there not indians they're from Guyana" it was at that point it snk in how racially divided ( in terms of housing ) America is. This despite being up in north Bronx with my granny, in an all black, mostly Carribbean neighbourhood.
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u/happybaby00 Apr 28 '25
Even in the party scene indo caribbean ppl tend to only go to clubs and events that are mostly indo Caribbean. You’ll find 1-2 that are in fetes that have all island ppl but it’s rare. I usually stick out in a lot of events because I’m indo guyanese and a majority of my friends are Afro caribbean from different islands but most other islands are very welcoming and ive never felt excluded . Whereas my Afro caribbean friends get weird stares if we were to go to a fete in queens.
Cos black men like their women than indos liking black women, simple as that
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u/Retrophoria Apr 29 '25
Untrue stereotype. Many Indo Caribbean men are attracted to Black Caribbeans. I think Indo Caribbean men see it as a bigger challenge or like accomplishment to date outside of their race (hate the phrase). To me, hooking up with even a bad coolie gal is easy as shit. I just show up and spit some basic game. Getting a Rihanna type chick or baddie like that is how we put ourselves out there and make the come up. At least that's my mentality. Mamba mentality lol
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u/balletje2017 Apr 28 '25
I dont really see Surinamese that united in NL?
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u/sheldon_y14 Suriname 🇸🇷 Apr 28 '25 edited Apr 28 '25
I was about to say, which Surinamese does he talk about??
Or is the Dutch friend confusing Surinamese = creole? Which Dutch people and creole-Surinamese tend to do.
Because the creoles have claimed the term Surinamese for themselves. An Indo-Surinamese is just "Hindoestaan" for creoles and is almost not allowed to call themselves "Surinamese". And even Dutch people call them Hindoestaan and even Indo-Surinamese call themselves Hindoestaans first. And then we have the Javanese who the Dutch think are Indonesians, creoles call them "Javaan", and the Javanese call themselves "Javaan" and make an issue with Indonesians who also call themselves "Javaan" because they claim that term for themselves. And the same story continues with the Chinese, however, Chinese-Surinamese is used more often for the Chinese from Suriname.
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u/tidousmakos Ayiti ak Kamaoni Apr 28 '25 edited Apr 28 '25
systems of oppression, created by european colonizers and fostered by their descendants over the centuries to today, absolutely persist in caribbean. and those shaped by these systems might pack up and take their ignorance with them, wherever they choose to sow seeds. i won’t say it magically disappears, but i think it depends on the diaspora. you see it more in some than others, because many are committed to ignorance & struggle to picture beyond what they were conditioned to believe—but you might even not be able to tell it was there for the others, cause it’s easier to unlearn harmful ideologies when you have access to information, and you’re not in the place where it’s still being encouraged & enforced. in places like nyc, everywhere you look, there are people from all kinds of currents. it’s not hard to find someone of a similar background who you can relate to, and learn from.
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u/Black_Panamanian Panama 🇵🇦 Apr 28 '25
In my country the white diaspora doesn't leave the country much and when they do they bond with the black one because at the end of the day they have each other's back.
However inside the country usually white people are upper class and they don't have many black friends.
People who are lighter skin or mestizo live in a different region where there aren't many blacks.
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u/CompetitiveTart505S Caribbean American Apr 28 '25
As a person of (Afro) Panamanian descent, I never grew up with white Panamanians, but I was brought around my Mestizo "uncles", whom weren't really related to me but friends of the family.
To be honest I have not seen too many white panamanians, and most panamanians in the diaspora are black. It's very interesting to see that black panamanians are practically the fact of the country
all the way to sports teams and diaspora groups
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u/Black_Panamanian Panama 🇵🇦 Apr 28 '25
I mean Panama has as much if not more indigenous or mestizo people than black
But black people are the talented ones in sports and music so they are the ones you see on tv. They also we're willing to migrate more because they were poorer.
However in Latin America panama is one of the few countries not even Brazil where you see black doctors, lawyers, politicians and so on.
Indigenous people are the ones who live Haitian level of poverty maybe even worse but that's by choice I won't get into it.
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u/chompietwopointoh Apr 28 '25
I live in NYC and there is quite literally a separate Little Guyana for indo Guyanese people. Same with Trinidad. Even in NYC there is segregation.
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u/Retrophoria Apr 29 '25
The communities freely interact with each other. The word segregation is an inaccurate exaggeration.
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u/Typical_Specific4165 Apr 28 '25
I lived in Guyana and GT definitely divided..like in Sophia I didn't see any Indians.
I've heard Jamaica is better. White or black they're just Jamaicans
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u/Retrophoria Apr 29 '25
Jamaica just has a high percentage of one group. But I will say Black Jamaicans are very including of Chinese, Indian, etc. Jamaicans
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May 02 '25
They are but the Chinese, indian and arabs are the most racist group
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u/Retrophoria May 02 '25
I don't know of any racism by the Chinese or Indian in Jamaica. Arabs? Who knows any of them in JA? Lol. There are jokes and prejudice not like the type of discrimination Europeans put on Black Jamaicans
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u/Drega001 Apr 28 '25 edited Apr 28 '25
Unfortunately no. It's like Brazil, it's there but we don't talk about it. Some places are worse than others. It depends on the caste system the colonists "gifted" to you. The first time I met a racist Puerto Rican was a few years back (plantation family).
It really depends on the family they came from. If they have racist views or racial insecurity you can bet they'll adapt to "the winning side".
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u/GUYman299 Trinidad & Tobago 🇹🇹 Apr 28 '25
It most certainly does not, in fact I have heard some of the most vile racist things from Trinidadians who live outside of the country.
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u/Traditional-Froyo755 Apr 28 '25
Sorry to barge in with an outside perspective, but this reminded me of how here in Kazakhstan, Turkish and Kurdish diasporas intermingle A LOT. Not only there's no hostility, but they almost consider each other to share the same background.
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u/danthefam Dominican American 🇩🇴🇺🇸 Apr 28 '25
There is not much conflict between white and black dominican to begin with. In the US the diaspora is representative with immigrants from many provinces of the country.
There are many people here from Cibao who tend to be lighter but also people from the capital or east that tend to be darker. So the diaspora tends to be a diverse blend.
Dominicans don’t interact with Haitian that much in US so that conflict does not manifest up here to the same extent.
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u/Flytiano407 Haiti 🇭🇹 Apr 28 '25
Yeah the last paragraph is true. Dominicans mostly occupy New York and Haitians are in South Florida.
And I think the Haitians who live in new york are often better off economically and have a stronger educational background than those in Soflo so the conditions that could lead to street conflicts/gang wars are minimalized.
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u/ultimatelesbianhere Apr 28 '25
If anything up north it’s more likely to find Dominicans and Haitians being friends or even relationships but that also goes for every Caribbean ppl up north cuz everybody is up here
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u/IcyPapaya8758 Dominican Republic 🇩🇴 Apr 28 '25
Haitians in NYC are mostly in Brooklyn/Queen. Dominicans are mostly in Manhattan/Bronx
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u/rubixpress Apr 28 '25
In the 70’s and 80’s you mostly saw Africa Guyanese in America, just my experience, now when ppl think about Guyana it’s usually someone of Indian heritage. So the varying parties administer favor to their own people. Now in the USA I can’t say I see lots of mixing going on. Also I don’t really party in Carib communities, more blk Americans and overall American cultures. Assimilation and all that.
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u/sheldon_y14 Suriname 🇸🇷 Apr 28 '25
As a Surinamese I can assure you that your Dutch friend is very much mistaken. I just explained a bit already on a response in another comment, but in Suriname were a lot more united than in the Netherlands.
In the Netherlands they still hold on to some of the stereotypes, that were commonplace in Suriname when they left. You can still find them in Suriname, but are a lot more in the background now. Sometimes perpetuating the stereotype is Suriname might get you "cancelled".
In the Netherlands you also have to realize, the term "Surinamer" (Surinamese) is synonymous with what we call in Suriname "Creole". The creoles have claimed that term, the Dutch perpetuate the stereotype and the Indians, Javanese and somewhat Chinese are almost not allowed to use that for themselves.
The Dutch also have a "creole" vision on and about Suriname, mixed with their own biases.
Furthermore in Suriname we celebrate each other's holidays a lot more too, which is somewhat a stranger concept with the ethnicities in NL. Phagwa for example is a huge holiday and festival here. The second largest after the Owru Yari Fest. But in NL it's a "koeli" (coolie) party. You hardly see creoles or Javanese.
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u/yucadulce Apr 28 '25
I don’t think it 100% disappears in every case. My personal experience, I feel like I view Dominicans with a lot more love and fellowship because we were both carribean latinos with spanish that is considered not proper by other Latino ethnicities. I don’t believe we are exposed to the same ridicule in our respective islands like we are in the states. I find I haven’t had the opportunity to interact with other carribean people but I’m definitely more than likely to feel similarly offbat as a result. Whether it’s Anglo or Spanish carribean there’s a cultural overlap there that builds familiarity and that’s something that brings me comfort when I’m away from home.
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u/MoriKitsune Apr 29 '25 edited Apr 29 '25
No. Racism and colorism are still problems even after people emigrate, and they often pass those problems to their kids.
For example, people in the Cuban communities in Miami are notorious for being racist. Even my own grandmother (who was born and raised in Puerto Rico,) is disgustingly racist/colorist. My dad has told me stories about my uncles trying to bring home black or afro-Latina girlfriends and my grandmother not even wanting to let them in the house.
(Edited for grammar)
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May 02 '25
well they are white latinos and they come from Europe
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u/MoriKitsune May 02 '25
they come from Europe
Good luck convincing Europeans of that- many Latinos haven't had their dna in Europe for several hundred years.
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u/TheNFSIdentity Puerto Rico 🇵🇷 Apr 28 '25
When it comes to Puerto Ricans, absolutely not. You would think that being one of the most racially diverse cultures out there, we'd have toned down on it - but I've heard some of the most racist crap come from us. Don't even ask about the whole "Latinos For Trump" shit in the US either. And if not other races, those born on the island just judge Nuyoricans or other Caribbean ppl instead.
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u/rubixpress Apr 28 '25
Growing up in nyc before Joe n Big Pun made that song, PR in LES used Moreno as a pejorative, when the song dropped in the hook playing boricua.. Moreno.. I was tight! Like what are they saying?
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u/RationalMellow May 02 '25
It’s debatable. As a black Puerto Rican yes there is bias/racism towards us but not overt as some make it seem
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Apr 28 '25
Yes. Tons of Caribs in Canada and they like each other a lot marry each other etc. No hostility or hatred
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u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 Apr 28 '25
Depends, I would say, for the most part, Carribean people feel closer to one another when they are in diaspora, but there is still serious racism that can come.
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Apr 28 '25
Not really. In Canada they get along great cause they are not under this racist, weird Caribbean system like back home everyone lives in peace and harmony cause you are respected as a human being
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u/BoyMeetsMars Apr 28 '25
No, many Caribbean people are still antiblack and obsessed with ytness besides Haitians.
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u/Substantial_Prune956 Martinique Apr 28 '25
Whiteness is not synonymous with beauty in the Caribbean, rather mixed race is.
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u/BoyMeetsMars Apr 28 '25
OP mentioned “in the diaspora”, not the Caribbean. I live in the USA, and the Caribbean ppl here are like that.
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Apr 29 '25
In Canada the black Caribbean community is okay with each other but the minorities who are not black tend to marry other white or Asian people from Canada, USA etc. Culturally Black Caribbean people are just different from Asian, Lebanese, Indian etc
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Apr 28 '25
No. The Chinese, Indians etc are still racist overseas. They might have some familiarity due to similar background but that'll go away once they are around other Chinese Indians etc.
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u/Joshistotle Apr 28 '25
Chinese and Indians from where? Caribbean ? Or their mainland countries?
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Apr 28 '25
Both. They are typically one in the same and march in step with each other. Obviously there's anomalies but as a whole? They are very racist. Their own kids will tell you that point Blank with no stutter. It's not just them though. Mexicans, South Americans, and all the other brown people will tell you the same. Again, not all but far too many.
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u/Retrophoria Apr 29 '25
Wtf are you talking about? Have any evidence for your sweeping generalizations?
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Apr 29 '25
Yeah. Real life. Obviously, it varies across islands, but it is generally facts. Run. Survey right now across the islands/diaspora and I'd bet major money it matches what I'm saying. Do I want it to be that way? No. But I'd be lying if I said it wasn't like that cause it is.
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u/Retrophoria Apr 29 '25
Yeah I'm speaking to my experience as a first gen American and we are too caught in American race relations to arbitrarily fight the conflict our parents did in Guyana or Trinidad
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u/Retrophoria Apr 29 '25
Don't listen to that moron. Im happy to provide real answers from someone with a big Indo-Caribbean family. Also, the Chinese from the Caribbean make up such a miniscule number of people in the US
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u/Retrophoria Apr 29 '25
Bullshit. As an Indo-Caribbean, I want nothing to be associated with a random Indian person. I wanna hang out with my Caribbean peeps. You don't speak for me.
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Apr 29 '25
Cool. Never said it was all, but real life is real life. You know how your people can be. It's just the unfortunate truth.
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u/Retrophoria Apr 29 '25
What is real life? How many Indo Caribbean or Chinese Caribbean people have you surveyed? They are such a small # outside of the big outliers (Guyana, TNT). Even in those places, race is used as a political weapon to divide the groups
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u/Mizzjewelzinthahouse Apr 28 '25 edited Apr 29 '25
Plenty of racism. I'm multiracial (white, black and Asian) and have experienced it on more than one occasion because apparently all Caribbean are supposed to be black. Well I'm sorry that I'm multiracial and not black enough for your liking 😒 I got harassed so many times by other Caribbeans for being multiracial
P.S. to those that down voted this comment, you COMPLETELY misunderstood what I said and if you didn't misunderstand and chose to downvote, then I'm sorry but you proved my point 🤷🏽♀️ I was giving an opinion on the general racism in the diaspora and my own experience so thanks again to those that down voted me for proving my point
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Apr 29 '25
my ex friend many years ago was half Barbadian and half Iranian but was raised by her black mother and white step father. She was from a Adventist Christian but the west Indian community in Canada where I'm from harassed her, bully her etc. Jamaicans are the worst out of the Caribbean you should she what they do in the Toronto, Canada. Jamaicans, Trinidad's all of them just suck I avoid them like the plague
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u/Mizzjewelzinthahouse Apr 29 '25 edited Apr 29 '25
I know cuz I'm from Toronto and I also know how Trinis are cuz I'm half. Also, I don't know why my comment got down voted. By down voting my comment, it proved my point on the racism in the diaspora
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Apr 29 '25
Your stating facts these people have been oppressed for a very long time. Colorism is still rampant and the after math of colonialism they have a very bad mindset. Jamaicans are angry cause the people at the top are not black they are White skinned people who came to Jamaica almost 150 years ago opened up business and now are in the 1 percent. Jamaicans have behavioral issues coming from there childhood they are fatherless, battered abused people. I can not go back to my country and be a success cause of Classism my country is divided not united in anything.
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u/Mizzjewelzinthahouse Apr 29 '25 edited Apr 29 '25
Your friend is like me: got harassed by our own community (Caribbean) for being mixed, correct? I understand why it is happening but it still doesn't make it okay. I'm sorry for your experience as well. This isn't right at all and needs to stop! These people are acting as if your friend and I, for example, chose to be mixed and be born into our families. My little sister is a lot more fair-skinned than I am and got harassed at 9 years old, by OTHER 9 YEAR OLD, for being not only multiracial, but fair-skinned. Mind you, these were Caribbean kids harassing her and calling her all kinds of names and the same ones did it to her friend who's half black/half white at my sister's party and were calling her "dirty" and said that she's adopted (she's not)
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Apr 29 '25
She had issues she was trying to find her identity got mixed with the wrong crowd etc. Tons of mixed race kids go through hell its really sad but there are podcasts and counsellors in Toronto and the GTA everywhere the kids in SCRA bough, Toronto Markham are really naive to the culture everything is dancehall and screaming Caribbean culture is a lot more than that. Its silly cause Trini men screw everything white black indian etc tons of outside children in GTA its retarded
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u/Mizzjewelzinthahouse Apr 29 '25
It was the same for me. Me and my 2 sisters had issues cuz we didn't fit in anywhere so we hung out with everyone. Luckily, my older sister and I found unproblematic Caribbean friends when we were older. My little sister is still young and hasn't really found that except for her friend who's also mixed and my BIL's younger siblings, but I have no doubt that she will find them like we did
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u/SAMURAI36 Jamaica 🇯🇲 Apr 28 '25
LOL, there's plenty of racism in the Caribbean.