r/CanadaPublicServants • u/ActRough2965 • 3d ago
Career Development / Développement de carrière Seeking Advice on Navigating Career as a PC
Hello,
PC: Physical Scientist
I've joined the PS as a PC-2 to work in a research environment. I've enjoyed the work up to this point, but have some issues with the PC classification and its limitations. This has led me to start thinking about potential directions for my career in the PS.
First, here are my issues with the PC classification that could perhaps shed some light on what I'm seeking. Also, curious if a fellow PC might have a very different perception given their experience.
I've found the PC classification so immensely broad with regards to the knowledge and expertise of individuals in this group. A PC-2 can be an individual directly out of university or someone with decades of experience. PC-2 is the ceiling for many. It's nonsensical but the reality. There is a lack of respect towards the talent of individuals in this classification.
PCs can have very little autonomy and control over the direction of their career. Assigned to positions that are less stimulating.
I'm looking for a greater challenge, with mobility as it relates to pay, autonomy, and generally more interesting and diverse work. I enjoy my current project, but I'm getting the sense I may be positioned to do certain work afterwards that is of no interest to me.
My general expertise is Geo, code development, data processing and analysis (e.g. ML/DL), and have held positions where soft skills were crucial. Now looking for classifications/positions outside of research environments that require individuals with technical and soft skills.
So far I've identified IT and EC.
Has anyone transferred from PC to IT or EC? What kind of work would an EC do?
Any suggestions on other classifications available for someone looking to depart from PC?
Or any other suggestions?
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u/ottawadeveloper 3d ago
Data adjacent tasks are weird in the government (I work in this area).
The IT classified folks often work on the major systems but don't have quite the expertise or the mandate to build the sciencey components of them. The science teams are often frustrated with the limited capacity the IT solutions have to actually meet their needs and end up doing a lot of IT work while being PC or EC (or maybe EG) classified.
Technically, an EC is supposed to be a policy/economics person. They focus on things like analyzing potential policy solutions and looking at the impact on Canada - will the policy achieve its goals or how is it best implemented. But if you work in a data heavy area, you might end up dabbling in data especially in groups that don't have good IT support (which is many of them).
A PC is similar, technically you should be focused on either research, distilling research for policy, adding science views to policy, or similar tasks. But with so much science being data-centric these days and IT teams not up to the task, PCs often get very IT like jobs but with a focus on scientific computing.
In short, it can be very silo'd in a way that is frustrating and senseless. It's often hard to get this kind of work done. The IT infrastructure and hiring aren't quite up to the task in many places (with some exceptions, I've heard EC and especially MSC are fairly good) to support scientists properly, but PC and EC classifications often don't have the authority to create what is actually necessary to do the job well.
More departments are building up science software development teams but that's a rare skill set and theres a lot of barriers from people who like the old ways (when IT largely focused on corporate knowledge apps and so didn't need as much of a science background). And then they tend to be overworked, and they don't always understand why the science has to work a certain way. There's a very internal focus in those groups sometimes where they miss that science isn't done in isolation - Government data sets and processes often have to dovetail with private and international scientific efforts especially in areas like climate change, ocean/atmospheric monitoring, etc.
Anyways.
I like working in my PC role. There are PC-03s that do this kind of work (I'm one of them), but that's about the cap before you hit team lead. If you're not in NCR, they often cap our at PC-02 and that's pretty normal from what I've seen. The EC pay scales are similar for similar work - you'll be an EC-04 to -05 and then get into people management if you want to go higher.
I've occasionally seen PC-05s or BI-05s who provide high level scientific advice for Directors and DGs or the equivalent, but they were rare - when I worked in the Hydrographic Service, there was exactly one reporting to the DG who basically represented the DG internationally on more science heavy topics.
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u/ActRough2965 2d ago
Thanks. Your input is really informative. My specialty is scientific computing. Prior to government, I worked in Dev where I Researched/developed solutions to then toss them over to more "traditional" software teams, or guided teams to develop scientific software. From experience, regular IT individuals can only do so much in scientific computing, just like individuals specializing in scientific computing can only do so much with architecture, etc. Both are needed.
Luckily I am in the NCR, fluently bilingual, and from what you've explained, my problem might just be I find myself in a sector/branch that is limited in growth or has not prioritized their PCs.
This gives me some hope I could make a PC position work. Seems I just need to be willing to jump around and find somewhere that aligns with my interests.
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u/ottawadeveloper 1d ago
Yep. They just closed a competition about a year ago where I work for PC-02/03 on my team with a data/software focus (my team does a lot of data cleaning/management, and we work with several teams who do more model development then working with IT on deploying them to supercomputing environments). DFO has this group, though they're small - there's some for environmental data like MEDS and CHS has a data shop too. ECCC has a few groups, some might be in Ottawa - I know there's one in Montreal for weather and there's one in Victoria doing the climate modelling. I can't remember where the MSC team lives but theyre kinda the top dog in the federal service along side NRCan. Transport has some smaller scale stuff as well. NRCan has a lot as well (largely for satellite data) and the GSC and NRCC also hire in this area some times. DND also dips it's toes in for coordinating data for missions. SSC is spinning up a science data management platform last I saw, but it fell short of what I thought they needed (I'm a big fan of external alignment with the academic, private, and international efforts and it's hard to get buy in on the idea we don't need to reinvent the wheel and should work within existing standards and best practices where possible). Other departments might have some too, but probably smaller scale and more economic/financial focused than science/geomatics.
A lot of the Ottawa jobs end up being coordination or management jobs with much of the real work done in the regions, but there's opportunities to work on large scale models, integrating regional efforts into bigger pictures, and a lot of work on pipelines to make it available (a vastly underappreciated area I work in lol).
They also get outsourced a lot, but that might change too. ESRI, CARIS and other major players pick up a lot of work from us.
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u/burntytoastery 2d ago
No advice, but agree with your frustrations. Was previously in a PC-02 role with 10+ years of scientific experience working alongside fresh grads. Ending up leaving the PS cause of the limits of the classification - if I came back would potentially be looking at PM roles in the same dept.
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u/TOK31 2d ago
I work in a science based department, and a tonne of our EC's have science degrees. There are a lot of EC05's and EC06's with that background. Anything above that would require you to be a manager. I'm not sure how that aligns with the PC classification though.
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u/ActRough2965 2d ago
Interesting. Your observations with ECs is completely different than what others have observed. No wonder it's difficult for people to make sense / find employment of interest. EC 5-6 are both above PC-2. EC-6 is equivalent to PC-4, and from my understanding PC-4 is primarily a management position.
Seem advantageous to find a science / data centric EC role similar to PC.
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u/Talwar3000 2d ago
I started out as a PC-03 for a few years, moved up to -04, then lurched into a PM-06 for a while and am now an EC-06.
PM stuff including supporting a negotiation table, managing grants and contributions, writing MCs and TBsubs, policy papers, briefing stuff, and so on. It was a move that leveraged my operational experience as a PC. Definite need for solid communications skills. Sometimes interesting. Rarely any kind of autonomy.
EC stuff was initially a regulatory role, so research, drafting, stakeholder relations, writing things like RIAS. Also got pulled into budget planning. More recently, strategic policy including policy and research papers, correspondence, and transition planning. Bigger focus on research skills and still plenty of comms skills. Sometimes interesting, rarely any kind of autonomy.
The most autonomy I had, really, was a PC, back in the day. It'll be harder to find now, I think.
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u/stevemason_CAN 2d ago
PC and BIs stay at -02 level for a long time. Lucky if a -03 moves on and -04 you’re literally waiting for one to retire. Used to have -05s but those are now EX-1 equivalent.
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u/OhanaUnited Polar Knowledge Canada 2d ago
Agree with this. I was a former PC-02 and fed up with the fact that you aren't going to get promoted until 8-12 years into the job, despite qualifying for multiple PC-03 pools across multiple departments. I am happy to jump over to the EC side where there's just more opportunities in more departments.
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u/ActRough2965 1d ago
"fed up with the fact that you aren't going to get promoted until 8-12 years into the job", This is one of the reasons I began to consider alternatives. I'm not going to sit in a position for a decade to maybe get promoted to PC-3. That's not a valid strategy.
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u/Additional-Tale-1069 1d ago
Our region has a few BI-5s. Generally they're division managers or working on national/international files.
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u/PS_ITGuy 2d ago
Except for a few key points I thought you were talking about the IT classification already.
IT-02, very similar pay, very same type of deal where many are likely to remain in that classification forever. You are going to find 20 year veterans and people straight out of school all over this level. You can either go specialist or supervisor from there, supervisory chain is going to require French (usually) and specialist has a lot less boxes. So more mobility for pay? Meh.
IT is also massively broad going from service desks, to different infrastructure service lines, project management, data centers and even computer programmers. Once you're in a specific shop your scope is generally going to be pretty limited. If you're in a shop that fixes Widget 123B and some one calls with the almost identical Widget 123A .. you are going to give them the phone number for Widget 123A team. Not because you can't fix it but because their manager has blasted your manager enough times when your team fixed his Widgets that your manager has flat out told your team you are not allowed to help people fix it.
Also, it's the public service. The most control most classifications have over their own career is applying to different jobs and pools.
In IT it's much the same. You may get on a team working on a project standing up something and the work is incredibly cool and satisfying. But then once it's all stood up, you now become the team that is just maintaining it, because you have all the knowledge on it. So same idea, even if you're on a team that you enjoy the work right now for, does not mean the work will stay the same.
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u/Donatello_TMNT 2d ago
What department? IT in my department generally don't have the same level of independence in theory day-to-day work.
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u/jac020001a1 2d ago
go into the RE group https://www.canada.ca/en/treasury-board-secretariat/services/collective-agreements/occupational-groups/research.html but they typically get cut when the DRAP comes. Depending upon who the administration is. There was some talk at one point that the IT group should belong to SSC only. Not sure where that talk went. Last DRAP I saw top notch world class scientists get cut and engineering as well. Gotta ask yourself now a days - if I get cut what would I do... decide from there.
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u/Additional-Tale-1069 1d ago
There's a few options for PCs. I've got friends at the PC-3 and PC-5 levels. PC-3 you're basically taking on more of a leadership role, leading projects/research programs, etc. whereas a PC-2 seems to often be under the direction of a PC-3. PC-4 is probably section head, and PC-5 you're getting to be a higher level manager in the regions. I know one PC-3 who became a RES.
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u/40022css 1d ago
You sound like you could do the work of a Bi-02/03, in a department with a research branch like AAFC or Fisheries. It wouldn't necessarily be research, but quite possibly supporting research at the BI-02 level, or hunting down your own grants via your soft skills at eh Bi-03 level.
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u/BikeDad613 3d ago
I think you should be looking for a program/department that interests you rather than looking to switch classifications. I've seen PC's do a very wide diversity of things: coding, risk management, project management, environmental compliance, site investigations, regulatory development, contracting, managing teams, etc. etc. etc. It all depends on the department and the specific program within the department. Think about what you want to do, then find the department/program that does that kind of work.