r/Carpentry • u/CTchippy • 8d ago
Shimming Behind Door Hinges, Yes or No?
Why is it you never really see or hear people recommending shimming above and not behind hinges? Gary Katz is often described as the Larry Haun of finish carpentry and people often cite his video series as definitive techniques but almost no one actually shims above hinges, always behind. Gary Katz recommends shimming above and not behind hinges when installing doors in this video:
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxPE1LTILJSHI-ZsnZGrxfB5Y_-1f1YNQC?si=ABxW70nFwmsTEPvA
His logic is that shimming above the hinges allows for more adjustability in door alignment, correcting future door sag, etc.
Almost every other carpenter/influencer recommends shimming directly behind door hinges even while crediting Katz's door hanging process as influential to their own methods. What does everyone think about shimming behind vs above door hinges? Is there more future adjustability when shimming above hinges vs securing directly behind them? Has anyone experienced issues one way or another?
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u/cyanrarroll 8d ago
Door jamb goes straight on stud. Then i pull on house with the truck until door is level
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u/DeezNeezuts 8d ago
Good to see the old ways are still respected.
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u/cyanrarroll 8d ago
Jokes aside, I've seen it done on a lot of Polish built homes where I am. Just not the truck pulling part. These doors are all whack
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u/Dazzling_Occasion_47 8d ago
shim behind hinge = more stable, not adjustable in the future
shim above hinge = less stable, more adjustable in the future
Keep in mind, there is a very small amount of adjustability there, we're talking at most a 1/16", by tightening the hinge screws and tweeking the jam in a hair.
Which you choose depends on what your future predictions of the building are: differential settling, hydrostatic expansion and contraction of the wood door... As for me, i opt to shim behind the hinge for stability, and use 18-guage nails on the casings so they can be easily popped off to adjust the shim depth in the future (allowing for greater adjustability). I also make sure my jacks and kings and headers are excessively fastened together (screws in addition to nails) to limit any movement there if and when the framing material dries out over time, wants to cup or twist, etc... a cupping jack stud can throw a door way off tune.
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u/Partial_obverser 8d ago
A properly hung door frame doesn’t need room for future adjustment, unless it’s not shimmed correctly. Shim at hinge center and check every box on the QC list; frame is centered on wall, taking into account for an out of plumb wall. Hinge jamb is plumb in both directions. Strike jamb is parallel with hinge jamb and no scissoring is fouling the door to stop margin. Strike and head jambs are shimmed with congruent margins match when door is closed, and ensure door is not hinge bound. Tick off those boxes and you are golden.
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u/New-Border3436 8d ago
Houses don’t settle where you are located? Interesting.
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u/OnsightCarpentry 7d ago
And everything is framed with engineered studs no doubt. A fellow can dream, right?
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u/cyanrarroll 4d ago
The thing is, once it's installed it doesn't matter if it gets out of level. Unless you take the whole door off, cranking the top hinge in or out just ruins the reveal or stops door from closing.
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u/Holy-Beloved 8d ago
As a layman I try to learn but sometimes I have no idea what y’all are talking about
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u/CheezWong 8d ago
I shim directly behind the hinges on the rough opening. Then, I replace one of the hinge screws with one that can get into the rough framing, through the shim. This ensures that the frame won't separate from the stud and potentially have moving shims. Having the shims where the weight of the door hangs just seems like a no-brainer. I'll still use shims to get an even reveal for trim if it's warped, but the work gets done behind the hinges.
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u/sortaknotty 7d ago
I shim behind the top screw hole of the hinge, then pull the screws out, then use a 2.5" rated screw in the hinge mortise under the leaf hinge to fix the jamb securely to the studs. Its a very resilient method, the doors withstand a lot of abuse, slaming, being hit during construction, , being squeezed by trim etc. We keep various 3 inch screws in the appropriate finishes if we have to adjust the doors later where you can flex the lower portion of the hinge. It pays to be really anal when you set doors and make sure they have clearances that work with multiple coats of paint, and humidity changes. Every customer knows how a door is supposed to operate, you dont want to give customer a reason to doubt your abilities or craftsmanship.
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u/Danny-Ocean1970 7d ago
I always shim behind the hinges AND above and below, I am very picky about my doors after 32 years as a finish carpenter. One of the main reasons I put them behind the hinges is so I can drive a long screw through one of the hinge screw holes if I need to. These screws are a necessity for any solid core doors. I know I overdo it when hanging doors but that's just my way. I do keep the cedar shim suppliers happy though!😁
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u/Public-Eye-1067 8d ago
I shim the very top of the jamb at both corners first to hold it in the opening where I want it. Then I shim about an inch or so from the bottom on the hinge side. Then I shim directly above the bottom hinge. With the other two hinges it depends on if the hinge screws are poking out or not but I think I prefer shimming directly behind the middle and top hinges.
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u/ConfectionSoft6218 8d ago
I agree with Gary. The hinge screws poking out the back makes adjustments difficult. Jambs are often not strong enough to stay straight, most doors will bind below the bottom hinge. I take a 1/8" shim and set it there, between the door and the jamb, while I shim the unit. Remove when finished. Sometimes it helps.
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u/zedsmith 8d ago
The proof of the pudding is in the tasting— if you’ve got the door hung , but you’ve still got a slight triangle of a reveal across the top of the door slab in your opening, watch what happens when you slide some shims in right above the bottom hinge.
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u/mrfixit86 8d ago
I mean, you shouldn’t have gotten that far before cutting off your shims.
Hang it, check reveals and tap them in/out until it’s perfect. Even if there’s a nail/screw in them they’ll split and slide quite easily if you use cedar shims.
Bowing the jamb with the side effect of pushing that bottom hinge out is kind of the hard way to do it. It’ll open up the reveal below the bottom hinge and that’ll need a shim there to counteract the bow you created.
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u/zedsmith 8d ago
No, because the weight of the door hanging tends to drive the slab into the jamb below the third hinge. They are related problems with the same solution.
I’m just with Gary Katz (among others who probably also learned from him). The shim above the hinge just works better.
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u/mrfixit86 8d ago
Well, sure, but in your scenario I assumed you already had a shim at the bottom of the bottom hinge to support that weight, bc that’s where it belongs.
Then you suggest adding a hinge above it which would bow the jamb to lift the door. And that’s correct, it will, with other consequences.
I think I’m just failing to let go of how I do it when I imagine how you do it, but that’s ok. I can leave it at that.
Just out of curiosity, do you see yourself as a fast carpenter or a fussy carpenter? (Or both?)
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u/zedsmith 8d ago
Def on the fussy side of the spectrum.
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u/mrfixit86 8d ago
Ok, that’s helpful to know. I am as well.
I wasn’t sure if it was a difference in end goals (time vs perfection) driving the preference but it sounds like that’s not the case.
I’ll do some more reading about the offset shim technique instead of being dismissive of it. I’ve never been happy with it, but that’s likely a me problem.
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u/Square-Tangerine-784 8d ago
I’m getting close to a quarter million doors hung. (Commercial doors and hardware for the first 15 years, then senior residential for 5 then residential) every wood jamb I’ve set has shims behind the hinges right in the center. I use 8 or 10 galvanized finish hand nails and have never had a call back. I actually just did a bathroom remodel in a home that I trimmed 20 years ago and upgraded the doors. Every jamb opening was still straight,plumb and square. Didn’t have to plane a single one to fit:)
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u/hippotango 7d ago
That comes out to over 30 doors a day every working day for 30 years. You've hung a door every 16 minutes all day every single working day for 30+ years? And while doing a bathroom remodel?
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u/Famous_Couple_8483 7d ago
I ran trim and hung doors for 12 years and I like shimming above or below hinges for the exact reason stated, to adjust future alignment issues
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u/braymondo 8d ago
Personally I shim behind my hinges I also hide a 2 1/2” screw behind my hinge but everything I’m building is getting loaded on a truck and then picked up by a crane. I would do it differently if I was building traditionally. I can see the advantage of not shimming behind the hinge.
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u/CurvyJohnsonMilk 8d ago
You should start stinking that screw behind the door stop. If youre not doing pre hung i guess.
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u/braymondo 8d ago
Mostly doing pre hung but like on exterior doors with weather stripping I’ll just hide them behind the weather stripping.
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u/jigglywigglydigaby 8d ago
This. You want a solid pack behind any pivot/load bearing points.
Some of the security door hardware I've installed over the years specifies solid pack behind all points of contact (hinges, latch plate, closers, etc).
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u/braymondo 8d ago
Yeah that’s actually where I got the idea, built a building for google which was basically a house for their security guards but they were very specific about everything. One of those things was solid shimming behind all hinges and latch points with a screw so we just started doing it for everything.
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u/SetNo8186 8d ago
I used to sell commercial doors and shimming behind the hinge is normal. When it came to my own front door I started using a deck screw instead of a hinge screw in the top hinge to keep the frame upright and limit sagging. I also use them in the striker plate for better security ie getting kicked in.
The jamb has been getting longer screws too - it's what I have on hand and they can be easier to remove, my doors seem to last about ten years and then they are junk. You get what you pay for.
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u/jwcarpentry 8d ago
Ppl still use shims? I thought I was the only one. Honestly I'm just happy if any are being used at all.
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u/jackieballz 8d ago
It depends on what the door is doing. I’ll shim behind the hinges if things are plumb and level, but they’re usually not. Often I will put it above or below the hinges, depending on what the door needs to do. On heavy solid core doors I always shim below the top hinges then run a screw into the framing, either through the hinge plate or behind it
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u/Viktor876 8d ago
Above the top hinge or none at all on top, below the middle and below the bottom hinge. That way you have a little adjustment with a longe hinge screw. If a good set of shims is directly behind the hinges then the set better be right and stay right. There’s always an exception but for your standard variety interior door that is how I approach it.
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u/chapterthrive 8d ago
I install a lot of exterior doors. I pair up my shims on the hinge side, above and below each hinge.
I can adjust the hinge better if I can pull them with a heavy screw
On the strike side I use 5 shim points to straighten the jamb
So far this has worked great
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u/Strict_Key_2251 8d ago
Shim in 3 places for 6'-8" door, 4 for 7'-0. I guesstimate bottom hinge shim, plumb top shim set, and slide in mid while holding a level. Then, if I need to set the top reveal above the door, I can shift top of jam to desired strike reveal.
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u/SnooPickles6347 6d ago
I shim behind and above if needed. Usually run a long screw behind the leaf, sometimes through the hinge itself if I am able to match the finish.
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u/FaithlessnessOk2297 6d ago
Yo I'm hearing a lot of people just nailing them and using screws in the hinges, are we not all screwing them in and covering the screws with the door stop? Keeps your jam solid, and your painters happy, maybe I'm missing something
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u/PiscesLeo 6d ago
Depends on the quality of the new jamb. Some of the new factory door jambs I’ve worked with are pretty flimsy. They need shims behind the hinges to feel locked in
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u/No-Bad-9804 6d ago
As pointed out himming above the hinge has merit. Were I to follow that suggestion I would shim above the hinge and then oppose run a pair of shims behind the inner screw on each hinge and run a finish matching 3" screw into the framing. I maintain the stress point on the door is the hinge, hence the shimming and long screw.
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u/OnsightCarpentry 8d ago
With a screw behind the top hinge plate I can still do a little bit of adjusting if my shims are above the hinge not directly behind it, so I think that's kind of nice. Not so worried about it in remodels but framing can definitely still be twisting and shmoving when doors are going in on new work. I get a chance to do a little bit of tweaking if need be when I'm back for the rest of the trim out.
I guess I also don't really see the benefit of shimming directly behind the hinge rather than slightly above it. Maybe I'm wrong and just haven't had the case made to me, though.
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u/LURKER21D 7d ago
the weight of the door transfers through the hinge to the jam, your door will have less play in it if it's shimmed and fastened through the hinge. the further away the shim is the more force the door will have to bow the jam.
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u/OnsightCarpentry 7d ago edited 7d ago
I'm not smart enough to crunch the numbers, but the difference between shimmed directly behind the hinge and an inch or so above seems like it would be pretty marginal. But, I suppose if it's enough to still make very small adjustments with the screw it could be enough to be affected by the weight of the door.
I guess I've just never had a door sag from bowing the jamb at the top hinge, but have wanted to adjust them slightly. Maybe in some number of years I'll be getting call backs and change my tune. I'll come back here to admit defeat, promise.
Editing just to add that I'm sure it changes some depending on shim patterns. I've definitely seen some installs that look like the person hanging the door was only willing to use however many shims he had in one hand for a whole house. My inclination is that with shims at the head jamb, slightly above the top hinge, and a distance a bit larger than that below the top hinge, if the jamb is sagging in that short of a span I might have some other issues going on too. But again, not smart enough to do the math.
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u/Super-G_ 8d ago
I've done it both ways, but I find the Gary Katz method much easier to get perfect reveals on the doors. Once the reveals are perfect I add another shim behind that bottom hinge or if the screws are sticking out then right below it.
For me it has worked better especially when the prehungs aren't perfect themselves for whatever reason.
As far as future adjustability, I think that's a theoretical bonus as I've never had to come back and fix one that I installed.
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u/spinja187 8d ago
Harder to cut the shims flush with the hinge in the way
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u/LURKER21D 7d ago
you shouldn't be framing your doors so close to the corner that you can't get your knife or multi tool in from the other side. how's the trim supposed to go on?
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u/rupert_regan 8d ago
I don't shim behind the hinges, just above and below. Long screw through top hinge.
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u/Dry_Divide_6690 8d ago
To me it’s a minor detail. I do a lot of rental property work and often sprayfoam interior door gaps. A little more strength and sound resistance. Just do a great job.
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u/jonnyredshorts 8d ago
The spray foam is a must IMO. Obviously not high expansion foam, but that bean of foam all around does wonders to hold the door in place, regardless where you shim.
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u/PM-me-in-100-years 8d ago
Above.
What kind of heathen is putting fasteners where their mortises are going?
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u/mrfixit86 8d ago
In what scenario isn’t the mortise already there? I’ve built my own frames enough times, but I mortise before I assemble the frame.
Do you mortise hinges in place?
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u/PM-me-in-100-years 8d ago
Huh. Never thought about it. I guess I've hung a lot of doors in existing doorframes that never had a door, and j just got used to doing it that way. Easier than figuring out how to clamp a workpiece on a lot of jobsites.
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u/mrfixit86 8d ago
That’s fair. I like mortising the jambs on sawhorses. I’m usually using template kits and routers more so than chisels due to radius corner hinges. I have better control of the router in that orientation.
Another plus is I can match the jamb and the door without much fuss by just moving the one jamb leg back and forth to the door as needed. Once I know they match up I can assemble the frame.
I have messed up a couple times over the years by not doing my math right when accounting for the depth of the dado at the top of the side legs. For interior doors it’s ~3/4 pretty simple. For exterior jambs with a step in them it’ll still only be ~3/4 even though the dado is 1-1/4 tall at the front.
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u/Necessary-County-721 8d ago
I usually shim at the top of the hinge and then screw right above shims and hinge.
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u/mrfixit86 8d ago
All my work is in remodels/existing homes, so that may affect my experiences, but I prefer to shim behind the hinges directly. I like them attached solid to the framing.
I haven’t been burned by bad house movement (settling/shifting) very often, maybe once or twice I can recall in 10-15 years? On new builds I could see that being more of an issue.
I’ll often run a #10 x 2” stainless screw (to match satin nickel hinge finish) thru one of the inner (closer to jamb’s center to catch framing versus drywall) hinge holes on all 3 hinges . I line the shim up directly behind the screw so it doesn’t bow the jamb.
Once the door is all in and adjusted for even reveals, before I cut off the shims, I shoot a nail or two thru the jamb to trap those shims in case someone ever takes my long screw out to change a hinge or paint.
Sometimes I’ll hide a torx screw behind the hinge if it’s a different metal finish I don’t have a match for or if I know the hinges are going to be changed/removed by a painter.
On the other hand, I’ve seen/fixed plenty of old door sag issues bc of short hinge screws that stripped out/were over tightened with an impact during assembly/install. These didn’t require any shim adjustments to fix. Usually just gluing some wood into the holes and re pilot drilling.
I’ve found that if there isn’t a shim right behind the hinges they flex/move more in an unwanted way for the life of the door which is a definite downside. Especially if the door slab is solid or has any weight to it. Top bows into the opening and bottom bows away from the opening. I’ve seen just this flex cause a door to rub seasonally. Even if the bowing doesn’t cause issues it makes the reveal to the casing wavy. This is especially true with softwoods/mdf and composite jambs. Hardwood is more resilient but that’s not super common either.
On the few doors I’ve fixed where tightening the screws/repairing the wood wasn’t enough it has been either a case of replacing with hinges that aren’t worn out or occasionally bending hinge knuckles to get a more even reveal if the mortises are inconsistent.
Worst case scenario a guy has to pull off the casing to pry/cut out shims if the door just isn’t right. I encounter something like that once in a great while, but in those scenarios it’s obvious the door was never right to begin with.