r/ChemicalEngineering • u/DCF_ll Food Production/5 YOE • 8d ago
Career Advice How to Address an Under-Performer
I’ll try to keep this short, but give enough information to get useful advice. Basically, I’m a Lead Engineer for a manufacturing facility. I do everything from capital projects/expansion, maintenance projects, process optimization, utilities, etc…
The Engineering Team is spread out and I report directly to the VP at our corporate office. I have a Process Controls Engineer (let’s call him Brad) who had been reporting to a Process Controls Manager. The Manager is burnt out and leaving because he’s really good and everyone goes to him for stuff. He oversees several facilities including mine and gets calls 24/7. I was told that Brad will now become my direct report.
The problem is this Brad is a massive under-performer. He’s on a PIP right now. I’ve been on the up-and-up with this company they’re very happy with my performance and want to challenge me to get Brad performing. Brad is lazy, constantly on his phone, not a self starter, doesn’t understand the process flow of the plant, doesn’t like to leave his desk, cannot prioritize projects, frequently misses deadlines which delays my projects… I could go on and on.
Up until now I’d say Brad has been a peer of mine. I’m much younger (20 year age difference) and wondering for those that have dealt with a similar situation what’s the best approach? I’m thinking I take him out to lunch and just lay out the facts? Write down a list of things I’d like to challenge him to start doing and my general expectations? Make it clear how I’ll be evaluating his progress and what “success” would look like in his position. I feel like I can’t beat around the bush and just need to be direct, but also let him know he’s got my support 100% and I’m willing to help. Any advice or opinions?
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u/Appropriate_Cap_2132 8d ago
How does he even get away with missing deadlines? My ass would be booted if I sucked at my job like that
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u/FellowOfHorses 7d ago edited 7d ago
Hard to say. This is a technical sub, not a gossip sub, but broadly, there are two types of low performers: people who do negative work, increasing the workload of those around them; and those who fall below expectations, who are nice to have around but aren't worth their wages. The first type is a management problem. The second is a corporate problem that ultimately becomes a management problem.
Without knowing the details, It's possible his previous manager knew he was the best they could get, he knew corporate wasn't willing to get a better engineer, either the pay was too low, or the HR people suck at interviewing. Anyway, he was stuck with him and just accepted the missed deadlines and subpar work. Especially if he missed by just a day or two and the subpar work was still acceptable. Maybe he also thought the deadlines were unrealistic and was ok with him missing some.
There are chances Brad is aware of this, and that he is putting minimal effort, knowing getting fired would be worst for their manager
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u/DCF_ll Food Production/5 YOE 7d ago
Honestly, it’s hard to comprehend for me because I’m just not wired that way. I hate to let my Team down. On a recent project, I had added several control valves with corresponding flow meters. Deadline was a Monday start-up he had about two weeks notice. On Monday, I was trying to test the valves and they wouldn’t move. I get his ex-manager involved to look into the code… turns out he added them to the HMI but had no underlying code to actually give you the ability to operate them. He knew we were starting up Monday and never said a word. I don’t even understand what his thought process was it’s hard for me to comprehend.
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u/friskerson 7d ago
Some of us have adopted more cynical relationship to work, especially those who have been laid off or “fired” a few times.
My heart used to be in the right place, now I’m more similar to a contract killer sicario than a passionate engineer.
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u/DCF_ll Food Production/5 YOE 7d ago
Well, it’s not really about passion. If you just flat out don’t do your job I’m not sure how that’s anyone else’s fault.
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u/friskerson 6d ago
I do my job but pay’s gotta be right and conditions should be good. I bail on bad jobs, not the other way around.
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u/NoDimension5134 8d ago
I had a similar situation, we ended up letting him go. If you can find something that motivates him and assign him work there it might help but my experience says that someone like that is just buying time to find another job or really doesn’t care. If he is on a PIP he should be well aware of his situation. Definitely reiterate expectations and ways he will need to show improvement and how you will rate is work. Not sure I would take him out on a lunch to do that though. If the time comes and he has not delivered 100 percent on the expectations you set, you should recommend him being let go. Best of luck to you, not an easy thing to do.
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u/friskerson 7d ago
My boss refused to put me on PIP…. Going against corporate policy. But the reality was I hated the location, I hated the fragile egos of the people I worked with, I hated the job itself, and most of all I hated myself for taking on the role.
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u/JonF1 3d ago
Were you another BOSK engineer? 😅
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u/friskerson 3d ago
No I worked a pretty corny job. 🌽
Watch The Informant! I worked for those cartel assholes.
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u/Aether-Eternal 8d ago
Hey, I’m a manager of a small team of engineers. About half younger than me and half way more experienced.
I Think you are on the right path. When he comes onto your team you provide very clear expectations of what it means to be on your team and what you expect out of everyone
You didn’t say this, but you don’t need to threaten “do this our I’ll fire you”. That may be what’s in the back of your head but I would focus the conversation on expectations and get him to agree and understand those expectations and then document it.
The first conversation is about setting expectations and document those (follow your conversation with an email)
Then as he doesn’t follow those expectations you have another meeting, bring up the documentation from the first meeting, review it, saying ee cover this, you agreed to these, and expectations aren’t being met with some specifics. Ask if he wants to be on the team and do x,y,z. If yes great, if no then talk to HR. Again document the conversation
Third meeting is saying we’ve documented expectations, had follow ups about your performance to reinforce those expectations and it’s clearly not working out. It’s time for them to explore new opportunity’s and be made available to the job market.
Idk perhaps some may say my method is too slow or flexible, but it what I did with an engineer who was 15-20 years my senior, when the project team they were on rightfully complained about their performance.
Also all this is for a non PIP employee. If some one is already on a PIP, that should dictate the expectations and if that is not being followed it’s time to dismiss.
1) set expectations and document. 2) your not following our agreed upon expectations, I need a change if you want to stay here 3)you’re still not doing x,y,z which are requirements for the job, it’s time to part ways and let you find another job that aligns with your interests and level of engagement
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u/Necessary_Occasion77 7d ago
I would strongly recommend against your plan about being informal and going to lunch with the guy. He’s gonna play you like a fiddle if you are too personable.
This is business and you are going to be responsible for your teams success. Remember that.
I’d have a turn over meeting with the outgoing manager to review the PIP together. Address any issues you have with the PIP. Such as ensuring that all his tasks are actionable and have a clearly defined deliverable.
Then I would have a weekly checkin with him. And document every single meeting. I have put people on PIPs. When someone is on a PIP I document every meeting with minutes and save them / share with them.
People on PIPs will likely try to get you to soften up and give them breaks. Document everything and when you probably terminate this person, you can show the upper leadership that you did what you could, but the guy wasn’t participating.
My advise would strongly be to terminate this guy in a month.
Have a plan to bring in a contractor to fill in his gaps. I had to eliminate a controls guy before, if you outsource these people who don’t do anything at work, you’re not looking at a lot of man hours to replace them. On the bright side the work will get done better / faster and you will look better.
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u/DCF_ll Food Production/5 YOE 7d ago
I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said and I do plan on documenting everything and having weekly check-ins… unfortunately I work in a somewhat niche industry and the geographic location of this plant has made it very difficult to fill this role. I was using a 3rd party for almost 8 months before Brad and they were traveling from 3 states away because we don’t have the local resources. Brad lives about 3hrs away in the nearest “big city” and only is site every other week.
Ultimately, I may have to let him go, but it’s been very hard to fill the position. The 3rd party contractors come with their own set of issues as well.
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u/Necessary_Occasion77 7d ago
I get it. I was in your position about having an issue with contractors. And yes it puts the burden on your shoulders to manage the contractors / plan their work / justify the expense.
The question you need to ask yourself is would you be better off without that guy or with him. Every person I have had on a pip I felt we’d / I’d be better off without anyone in that seat.
The issue for you is that you won’t get to hire a new guy even if that takes a LONG time with this guy in the seat.
You might also want to consider a remote position for this role in the future where the engineer would just travel to the site infrequently and WFH the rest of the time.
I feel for ya. It’s a hard spot.
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u/jlomba1 7d ago
Ask him why he’s underperforming. Most of the managers I’ve had had never asked for my side of story. Maybe he’s not happy with the job - help him find something else in the company that’s a better fit. Maybe he sees no opportunity for growth; or maybe there’s something outside of work that is affecting his performance; or in the past he’s not been recognized for his accomplishments.
Since COVID many of my company’s mid- and senior- management work from home a lot so there’s no engagement at the site. Us at the bottom see them as just looking at the numbers - the human connections aren’t relevant to them. Before COVID management knew everyone and we knew them more than just a face & name. They were very visible on the factory floor. Now we rarely see them and when they do show up I’ve heard a few times ”who are all of these new people?”
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u/DCF_ll Food Production/5 YOE 7d ago
Good point - I will ask him what barriers have been preventing him from completing x y z tasks/responsibilities. I think it’s important to try to understand his perspective. I want him to succeed, which in turn helps my team.
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u/jlomba1 7d ago
Poor morale is the silent group/department/company/relationship killer. The company I work at has surveys every 6 months. Management rarely responds when they ask folks why the numbers are low. “Let’s give everyone a t-shirt or keychain” as opposed to “Let’s actually interact with the employees on a continual basis and do things that knock down their barriers to succeed.”
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u/sf_torquatus R&D, Specialty Chemicals 6d ago
Ask him why he’s underperforming. Most of the managers I’ve had never asked for my side of story.
This is fantastic advice. In my experience a PIP is a way to fire someone while having insurance against a lawsuit, but I've seen it used in very dubious circumstances on otherwise high performers.
Of course I've also seen stellar employees fired for making the wrong mistake at the wrong time. And others who were either fired or moved from positions of authority if the wrong mistake was made several rungs down the chain. Point is, sometimes the situation is black and white, other times it's anything but.
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u/jlomba1 6d ago
Another thing I’ve noticed is that management rarely tries to match an established underperforming employee’s skills or interests to another position that might better suit them. It’s more like “You’re underperforming so shape up or ship out” and “You didn’t take the initiative to look for another internal position” rather than “I believe that you might be a good match for this other position that needs someone with your skills”
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u/ChinaShopBull 8d ago
I’ve been a low performer, and the best advice for both him, and you, is to get rid of him. There is very little anyone could have done to motivate me to “be more productive” at my job consistently. I’ve found my best life by constantly switching jobs. I think I get about two years of high-energy creative engagement before I stop caring about a job. It’s not that I haven’t found the right job, or that I am a bad fit. I genuinely don’t want to do anything forever. I have tried, but that effort is more about acting like I conform to the expectation of management. I bet this guy wants to start anew, but he’s kinda afraid to, and has loads of people telling him about how to fit in “for his own good.” Cut him loose so he can get on with life.
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u/Cormentia 7d ago
You should go into consulting. 1-2 years in one place and then you move on to the next assignment.
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u/friskerson 7d ago
I found Capital Projects is rocky enough to lead me to a new place every couple years. I wish it were some other way. But in this new tariff-hobbled economy….
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u/hataki7 7d ago
this was a bit shocking to read but i mean at least you’re conscious and honest with yourself. is this a way to live life and work?
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u/ChinaShopBull 7d ago
This is difficult. I haven’t had a pay raise in 10 years, which means my real wages have declined. I’d like to be able to continually try to motivate myself to do a job, as that seems to be a valuable thing that is both secure and expected of me. However, I am certain that people who find a job they like, and do it for their entire career, are a very different from me. I don’t think high- and average-performers put a lot of mental effort into making themselves do their jobs. They put a lot of effort into just doing their jobs. There is a huge difference. The civilization we live in was built by high performers, and it really accommodates people who like to specialize in some set of tasks, rely on exploitation of others (especially when that exploitation is unseen) and do things that signify how they fit in. I don’t want to specialize, exploiting others makes me uncomfortable, and fitting in makes me nauseated—even though I clearly see the benefits that participation affords people.
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u/friskerson 7d ago
🤝 I chose engineering because of the 2008 recession, not because of passion. I used to think I was a high performer from the grades and test scores, but it all quickly dissolved in the real world where I was expected to use my intelligence to dominate others. In school intelligence is used to clear a bar. When that bar is my fellow human my compassion and humanity heavily outweighs my ego. Seems not to be the case for the managers at my workplace. They had no problem lying, coercing, intimidating (one even told me he would have his state champ wrestler son beat me up, WTF Doug😑), withholding funds, using a legal team to cover up their improprieties, and using PR teams to smooth over local news coverage when accidents occur.
I got into some hot water when a major ethical quandary popped up on my radar regarding systemic environmental failure at my refinery (corroded tank farm derated to satisfy ASME BPVC but not satisfying ERV spec requirements, leading to daily toxic and carcinogenic release). To deal with the cognitive dissonance I would vape 90%+ THC every evening and zonk myself out so I wouldn’t overthink. Quickly became a low performer. Stopped caring, had a psychosis and ended in a hospital, suicidal because of the mismanagement of something I felt I should have had more control over. So I whistleblew. Figured out the right people to go to, who would follow up. People with no skin in the game, the authorities who had jurisdiction in that engineering niche.
Ruined my life for several years. But we’re soon back after job hopping thrice. Still dispassionate. Still chugging along. That nightmare plant shut down in February or March this year. I took a video of me flipping them off, screaming “F youuuuuuuu”, doing a donut in the front circle and sent it to the old boss. Catharsis. Not all heroes wear capes, some wear the thorned crown of whistleblowing.
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u/Capt-Clueless 8d ago
Why in the world would you want to put time and effort into trying to get a lazy, low performing employee to do his job at even a mediocre level, when you can just fire him and look for someone better?
If being on a PIP, aka the fast track to unemployment, doesn't motivate this guy... He's a lost cause.
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u/DCF_ll Food Production/5 YOE 7d ago
It’s been a really hard role to fill due to industry and location. We were looking for 8 months before Brad and using 3rd party. If I could get things turned around it would save me another 8 months of trying to fill the controls role on top of my own responsibilities.
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u/Capt-Clueless 7d ago
Sounds like you're not paying enough then.
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u/FellowOfHorses 7d ago
Yeah, if you are in the middle of nowhere and need technical staff you don't pay local wages, you pay whatever it would take for someone from a big city/other country to move there.
it's a reason why some industries have been moving out of rural areas. As work has become more specialized, technical labor costs have been trampling cheap land and general labor.
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u/dirtgrub28 7d ago
i'd not do the lunch thing. i'd also not jump right into confronting him on his low performance. it will come across that you've got something against him right off the rip...which from an HR standpoint isn't great.
personally, i would give him discrete tasks he needs to do with firm deadlines. when he doesn't meet these...start going into "lets fix your performance" type conversations with him. this would also be the time to bring up the PIP...
Also, outside looking in to someone's performance is always different than top down. so i'd give it a little bit of time and keep an open mind to his actual performance. also, it reads like you have no other direct reports at the moment? so i definitely wouldn't start your management career with focusing on trying to fire your first direct report. not saying its wrong or to never do it...just that there's probably bigger things to focus on at first. not to mention...Brad might be bad, but Brad might still be better than no-one...which is what you'll have if you fire him. at least for a few months (best case) while you try to hire...IF they let you backfill him.
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u/thegof 7d ago
If this person is already on a PIP, then there should be documentation and explicit expectations already outlined (the Plan part of PIP). If the PIP was just started, have the PIP revised, but if it's well underway I would have a joint meeting with the current outgoing manager, yourself, and the employee (plus HR if policy requires) to discuss current status (on track, needs more, unacceptable) to achieve what was outlined in the PIP. You don't want the employee or rumor mill saying you came in and changed the rules. It's also fair/equitable for the employee. The consensus here always seems to be PIP is telling you to get another job, but for some (not all) it's a wakeup and can be overcome.
Once that joint meeting happens (as part of it), you can outline any adjustments to the PIP and get alignment. As others indicated, it's a matter of fair expectations, documented milestones, and somewhat constant feedback.
Now, if your expectation is the employee will fail the PIP. Spend your energy on working with HR to get a replacement job listing prepped and, if headcount allows, posted to start getting applicants.
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u/Low-Duty 7d ago
Well he’s already on PIP so there’s really not much you can do about it but boot him after the appropriate amount of time has passed. If there’s a 20 year age difference between you guys i doubt there’s anything you can personally do to get this guy to listen
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u/HououinKyoumaBiatch 7d ago
Is it remote optional? I have been wanting to get into process control for years but haven't been able to get entry level experience. I have the passion and drive to learn if given the opportunity. I am younger and have roughly 5 years of relevant chemical engineering experience with an ABET-accredited B.S.ChE. Send me a DM if you would like to see my resume. Only reason I ask remote is we most likely aren't in the same location.
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u/Half_Canadian 7d ago
He's on a PIP already, so if he doesn't change his tendencies immediately then get rid of him
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u/AdmiralPeriwinkle Specialty Chemicals | PhD | 12 years 8d ago
You’re losing a high performer and a low performer is expected to take on both of their workloads? Good luck.