hunter the vigil or hunter: the reckoning 5th? which is better for writing a chronicle as a Storyteller and why?

[u/Jaceaxe]

i've recently played HtR 5e and enjoyed the semplicity and the desperation/danger system but didnt like the fact that was a bit rushed as a game.

Since i'm diving into CofD for the first time i've also skimmed hunter: the vigil 2nd edition, i knew that 5e ripped of HtV and it shows!

My question is what do you think is the best when it comes to the storyteller's perspective between the two?

[u/Ok_Set_4790]

Well, since HtV is of CofD, ofc it is easier for Chronicless/j.

But seriously, HtV has a lot more hunter organisations, each with their own identity. So it is better than HtR.

[u/LordOfDorkness42 → u/Ok_Set_4790]

Vigil scales beautifully too. Way better than Reckoning.

You can have anything from a small group of farmers that's tired of their cows being savaged with one, two pistols among themselves and just baseball bats aside...

All the way up to globe spanning Conspiracies sowing raw fear in even things like vampires, werewolves or even mages.

Nothing wrong with the 'street-level play' stuff of H5, but Vigil is way more focused on forcing you to feel like the constant underdog.

[u/Jaceaxe → u/LordOfDorkness42]

yeah, skimming the HtV and the chronicles of darkness core book i've noticed that the differences between a CofD mortal and an Hunter its just the tactics and the stuff the compound/cospiracy gives you, making you indeed, an underdog even system-wise

[u/Hypnotician → u/Jaceaxe]

I feel particularly proud of those Tactics. They brought in a level of group play which had not been felt before. Your characters can have an adventure where all they do is surveil and monitor their quarry, getting the measure of them, working out their weaknesses; and then they can take that creature down, exploiting those weaknesses against them.

That's what makes Vigil stand out above and beyond even Reckoning v5.

[u/LordOfDorkness42 → u/Jaceaxe]

Honestly, its not just the Conspiracy stuff. Mortals are actually a genuine threat in Chronicles since they don't get distracted by shiny but expensive super powers, most of the time.

Like a single guy with a gun can be a terrifying threat that rips you a new one. And that's if they're a barely trained hick that can hit the broadside of a ship since guns ignore Defense unless you're in melee ranges. Outright trained military firing full auto is the sort of thing that ends games if you underestimated them.

In WOD... a lot of supernaturals almost consider guns cute. Can often at least partially ignore them outright.

Neither approach is wrong for a Horror game. But I must admit I prefer the way Chronicles does that stuff. Explains so much better why even the most mindless monsters sneak around and try not to draw attention.

[u/Nissiku1 → u/LordOfDorkness42]

That was true for the first edition of nWoD and VtR, but CofD supers, overall, are the most powerful verion of themselves between all editions of oWoD and nWoD. VtR 2ed Vampire can absolutely shrug off bullets, and even 1-2 dot Disciplines are quite powerful and are a gamechanger, unlike many of VtM low dot Disciplines. Furthermore, VtM damage soaking always was quite unreliable - you're always one botched roll away from a disaster. Quite a few stories of "I can take it, this is nothing, I've dealt with way worse" being famous last words. In contrast, VtR 2e way of dealing with damage is more reliable: if it's mundane weapon, then it's bash, then it's usually no big deal*. VtR 2e Vampires can heal 2 points of bash as reflective action, in contrast to VtM 1 health level per 1 Vitae and roll requirement (if you want to act in this round), where if you fail the roll you don't get healed AND lose Vitae.

*Depends, of course. Getting hit over the head with road roller (DA!!!) is a Big Deal. That would be a lot of bash.

[u/Hypnotician → u/Ok_Set_4790]

A reminder that Vigil introduced the tier system which is now used in every other game, CofD and WoD.

Tier 1 is the hardscrabble streets of the local community, and your individual cell against whatever screaming entity is plaguing the street from that house on the corner.

Tier 2 is citywide; the realm of Compacts, where your characters take on the monsters whose reach extends from the penthouses to the docks, and you have the likes of The Union to help, or hinder.

Tier 3 is global: where the big players extend their powers across the world, and you have Conspiracies, the likes of Cheiron Group and the Lucifuge going up against elder vampires and entire Clans etc.

And all of that started in Vigil 1e.

You're welcome.

[u/Jaceaxe → u/Hypnotician]

Is it possible to make a cross-tier chronicle?

[u/texas_leftist → u/Jaceaxe]

Absolutely. Different ways to achieve it too. Starting low and getting recruited up. Oversite/support from a higher tier. A task force built to get an area back under control incorporating locals and specialists from higher tiers. I wouldn’t get too nutty with it, and always give lower tiers home turf advantages to try and level power, because there is a clear power imbalance.

[u/Jaceaxe → u/texas_leftist]

Right, also, i've noticed that most compounds in the manual are north america-centered ones but the rules to make new compounds are quite easy so i can imagine a tier two chronicle where each player gives the storyteller a concept for a compound and then works a story around them, hell, i can also see an ST reskin those compounds to make them more akin to the setting he's playing.

[u/ChanceSmithOfficial]

Vigil, 110%. The rules are better streamlined for a much nicer player and storyteller experience, the worldbuilding is more exciting and sticks to a much more consistent tone, and it’s also the Chronicles splat as opposed to the OWOD one so it will mesh better with anything you decide to do later with the story.

[u/Hypnotician]

Go with Vigil 2e. Go with the voice, not the echo.

[u/ElectricPaladin]

Aside from not liking 5th edition, I strongly prefer Vigil to Reckoning. Simply put, I found that shoehorning magic powers into a game about being human defenders of humanity really cheapened and diluted the theme. The typical White Wolf cynicism - that the hunters were empowered by angels who were hollowing them out to use the as oven mitts so they could touch a world that their boss had told them to keep their hands off - was even more deprotagonizing. By contrast, Vigil focused on the human aspect of the hunt - plucky humans working together to surmount insurmountable odds and the human cost of fighting against inhuman forces - while giving you the tools to bring in weird and mysterious powers if that was your thing.

So Vigil does what I think is at the heart of a Hunter game better while also supporting you in doing Reckoning style Hunter, but without a degree of cynicism that (for me) makes the game kind of pointless. For me, Vigil is far and away the better game.

[u/Jaceaxe → u/ElectricPaladin]

The fifth edition of HtR, in fact, ripped off The vigil, even there you play a plucky human hunter and not some empowered human.

The imbued are still a thing in 5e there but they are endgame material from what i recall.

[u/ElectricPaladin → u/Jaceaxe]

Huh. Well then, maybe aside from not liking 5th edition I would like H5 just fine. Thanks!

[u/Jaceaxe → u/ElectricPaladin]

The only problem is that the entire rulebook is filled with "big orgs are baaaaad" kind of mood for some reason... and then later they announced a addon for playing hunters in big cospiracy/compound-like organizations.

Kinda ironic dont you think?

[u/ElectricPaladin → u/Jaceaxe]

The tradition of knee jerk cynicism is clearly alive and well! Everything is maximally corrupt all the time!

[u/Jaceaxe → u/ElectricPaladin]

Other than that, i had fun when i played it, its even more streamlined and rules-light than the vigil but, overall, less fleshed out in my opinion.

Again, they ripped off the vigil because they knew it was a better game the the original HtR

[u/Mumbleocity]

I really like Chronicles, so I'd go with HtV.

[u/themoonmonkey]

Vigil will be both better for the storyteller and the players.

HtR 5th is, at its core, made to be as unfun as possible because it represents you, as a nobody, going against things you don't understand. Difficulties are high to use abilities that are nothing really special. At least with Vigil I can cover myself in hellfire and give someone a hug.