r/Competitiveoverwatch • u/ituralde_ • Apr 05 '18
Discussion Racism vs Racial Insensitivity in Esports
[EDIT 2] adding more explicit commentary because reading comprehension is hard.
The esports community has failed at this distinction and it has caused a lot of drama and consternation.
Racism is believing awful things about some group. [EDIT] Think of this as a measure of Character.
Racial insensitivity is saying something about a group that is offensive. [EDIT] Think of this as characterizing someones actions. You could also call this "racist actions", describing the actions a person took. I chose the phrasing to make a distinction between actions and character, not to pretend that this made the actions not racist.
[EDIT 2] The phrasing doesn't matter here and it's a shame I can't edit the title because people are caught up on this. The important distinction (again) is character judgement vs actions. Neither racist actions no racist character are something the community should tolerate. The distinction only matters in that someone who does not want to be known as racist will be willing to reform their racist or otherwise offensive behaviors when given the opportunity. That's why it's important to remember that, when it comes to Actions and Character:
These are not the same thing.
Both are incredibly important. Impact is more important than intent; it's important to be cognizant of how your actions are interpreted by the world around you. [EDIT 2] This means that being racially sensitive is a terrible thing and merits the punishments that have been getting given out.
That said, it's similarly inappropriate to always assume racism in the presence of racial insensitivity. [EDIT 2] This means that not everyone who says something awful and punishment-worth is doing so out of outright racism. Young, dumb kids say and do dumb shit for reasons above and beyond being a terrible person.
The important behavior we want to teach to players and fans is that sensitivity matters, and we undermine that by accusing everyone who makes a mistake on the sensitivity front of being immediately racist/homophobic/etc.
Racial and other insensitivity is and should continue to be punished by the Overwatch league and its constituent teams. The important result of this should be that lessons are learned, not that players are crucified.
Take a look at EQO's case - he made a mistake. For a lot of us, it's an obvious mistake but clearly not one he thought of. Both he and the Philadelphia Fusion made sincere responses to the mistake. This is a perfect example of how this shit should be handled. We as a community should also treat it as such, and while we should be harsh on players who do make these mistakes, we should also encourage these young people from various backgrounds to learn from such mistakes. Let them be examples to their fans, don't bury them in negativity.
This is really important.
[EDIT 2] For clarity since this has been all over the comments, EQO not only fucked up bigtime through his actions, he made it worse by trying to play coverup. The good response absolutely was at the behest of some authority figure in the Fusion, and that's exactly what we should expect of organizations in the league. We, as a community, should take a trust-but-verify approach - give the Fusion credit for their swift response and give EQO the benefit of the doubt that this was a lapse of judgement, but also keep an eye out that the final statement was sincere.
Take a look at XQC for another example.
In full disclosure, I don't like XQC. I don't like the majority of his fans. I'm probably naturally biased against him.
However, I don't think he's a racist, and I sympathize with the guy who is broken over being saddled with this label by the powers that be.
He made a mistake. Sure, he hasn't really shown that he understands this but at the same time, how the heck could he? He's being told he's racist which isn't something he's capable of identifying with. He doesn't share the beliefs he's being accused of, so how could he get anything from this?
He's not a racist. He made a huge fuckup and has been hounded by the community as if he's evil. He's not evil, he fucked up. He displayed poor judgement, that doesn't make him a bad person - it makes him human.
[EDIT 2] I thought this was clear from context but the important distinction is that he doesn't see him as a racist and continuing to accuse him of that worldview doesn't help anything. His actions WERE racist. You could say he was "acting racist" or "being racist" in reference to his actions if that terminology fits it better. Does he have a racist worldview? Only insofar as he clearly doesn't understand why it's important to be sensitive about how you show up publicly.
XQC isn't the first and EQO won't be the last to make these mistakes. So let's learn a lesson as a community and give these players the window to improve themselves and how they show up in public. Condemn the action, not the person - give them the window to reform. Let them acknowledge the difference between intent vs impact and use these examples to teach the community about why this matters.
Demonizing the people only undermines the opportunity for a lesson to be learned by the players and the community as a whole.
Let's maintain our standards, but enable our players to rise above careless behavior to those standards. Let's not saddle them eternally with the baggage of a mistake made of youth, ignorance, community-driven habit, and/or carelessness. Let's not make accusations of a person's character when they yet have the opportunity to grow from a poor choice.
[EDIT] This has gotten way more traction than I ever thought it would, so I'd like to clarify a few things in simple terms.
The punishments were good and appropriate. I think the first reaction to negative behavior would be to stop it and punish. Only after should we look at how to rehabilitate bad behavior.
The distinction I'm trying to draw here is the difference between Actions and Character. I think a redeemable Character can perform reprehensible actions. In the case someone does something reprehensible, we shouldn't shut the door on them redeeming themselves if they choose to accept responsibility and reform. That's really all I'm trying to say.
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u/MrSumada Apr 05 '18
The esports community has failed at this distinction and it has caused a lot of drama and consternation.
While I agree with the crux of your argument, I want to point out that the gaming community as a whole can feel pretty unwelcoming if you're a minority. Trust me, I am one. I'm sorry if you consider the drama and consternation too much to handle, but for many minorities these actions have been a relief to see.
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u/ituralde_ Apr 05 '18
I'll admit, I'm not a minority and I will never understand what it means to be one.
What I've experienced relatively recently though is moving out to a rural community. Most of my life I've lived in fairly liberal places and what really shocked me was how people legitimately didn't think twice and just assumed certain things. Perfectly otherwise normal people had all kinds of crazy ideas about things they'd never experienced. These people weren't closed minded, they legitimately had no experience that corrected their mistaken perspectives and often had authorities that they should have been able to trust tangentially encouraging their fucked up understanding of the world.
I literally sat down with an adult who thought everyone in Germany made the same salary regardless of profession, all because they heard "Germany is socialist".
In my mind, a proper racist cannot be allowed to exist in a healthy community. The only treatment is expulsion until they reform on their own.
But for someone who is an otherwise potentially decent person who, for whatever reason, makes a poor judgement call when it comes to how they behave? That's someone that is potentially correctable. Teachable. This isn't someone that should be forced onto the other side of the battle lines of decency.
What I saw in my local community was otherwise decent folk getting pushed into the corner of the likes of Donald Fucking Trump because of they were dismissed as rural racists.
If we carry an expectation of higher and better behavior, you can reach these people without putting them on the defensive. You can correct ignorance instead of alienating them.
This is a battle we shouldn't have to fight but it's actually the case that the gap in what we see as common sense can truly be that extreme.
So any time we can build a story of a role model of hundreds or thousands of young people learning a lesson on how to treat others with basic decency? I think we should seize it and use it to help make our community better.
This is our carrot.
Those who refuse to reform? They absolutely deserve the stick.
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u/Lipat97 Apr 05 '18
These people weren't closed minded, they legitimately had no experience that corrected their mistaken perspectives and often had authorities that they should have been able to trust tangentially encouraging their fucked up understanding of the world.
In law, a bad upbringing is not an excuse for being a pedophile, or a murderer. And its the information age, am I really supposed to pity the ignorant?
And yes, there's a difference between being a racist and being racist. Both Xqc and EQO were being racist. They deserve shit for that. They should be old enough to not get caught up in the semantics.
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u/dot-pixis Apr 05 '18
I'll admit, I'm not a minority and I will never understand what it means to be one.
You don't say? You made that abundantly clear when you started this thread.
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u/ituralde_ Apr 05 '18
So? Enlighten me. I'm trying to learn like everyone else. Let's talk, let's not descend to /r/politics level sniping.
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u/dot-pixis Apr 05 '18
I would suggest asking people if racism and racial insensitivity are the same thing, then, instead of strongly staking the claim that they aren't.
I would suggest taking a growth mindset and trying to reach out to understand instead of to be understood.
This entire post is about how the concept of racism makes you feel; try asking those who it affects how they feel about it.
There's a lot to learn using this approach.
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u/-Shinanai- Apr 06 '18
It really boils down to how you actually define "racism" and "racial insensitivity". For me, racism is something that's clearly done with intent, while racial insensitivity can be "I don't care", "I'm just kidding" or "I don't even know this was considered an insult".
The line between the "I don't care"s and actual racists is very, very thin. If people know something is insulting, yet keep doing it because they are lazy / don't personally think it's as bad as it sounds / whatever other reasons they might have, they are still being disrespectful and even if they don't actually hate the people they insult, the fact of the matter is that they are still knowingly and willingly insulting them.
Jokes, I would say, are innocent, as long as they don't cross certain lines. For example, when I was in India with a couple of friends, we sometimes referred to ourselves in private as "white monkeys". This would probably sound racist to some outside observers, while in reality the name was coined when we visited the local zoo - one that was in a non-touristy part of the town - and the other visitors were literally more interested in us than in the animals.
The "I didn't even know" part is where I generally see a LOT of overreaction, misunderstanding and witch hunting. A couple of examples:
I've seen a lot of people casually use the word "Jap", thinking it's simply short for Japanese and not knowing that it's actually derogatory. It happens a lot on anime related forums, even by people who adore anything and everything Japanese. When pointing out that it's actually racist, the most common reaction is apologizing profoundly and never using the term again.
50 Cent, while in Hungary, tweeted a photo of a bag of candy called "Negro" he saw in a store. Predictably, most of the comments were outraged, some even mistaking the picture of the chimney sweep on the packaging to a black man being hanged (like, wtf). In truth, the candy is named after its inventor, Pietro Negro. It also refers to the color of the candy (it's black due to it's high active carbon content) and its marketing slogan "chimney sweep of the throat" and has absolutely nothing to do with race.
There was a recent incident when J.J. Redick appeared to say "NBA chink fans in China" in a video where several NBA players were wishing happy lunar new year. He later apologized and said that he was intending to say "NBA Chinese fans" but it sounded weird, so he changed it mid-sentence to "NBA fans in China"... so the result was something like "NBA Chin.. fans in China". If anything, I'd say this was a mistake on the editor's part (they should have noticed it sounded wrong), but there were clearly no ill intentions.
Another recent scandal that was blown way out of proportion was H&M's UK webshop advertising a sweatshirt with the words "coolest monkey in the jungle" on a black child model. Most of those who immediately grabbed their pitchforks were unaware that in the UK the word "monkey" is a common term for lively children. Was it intended as insulting? Hell, no. Should someone in H&M's marketing division have said "waaaait a minute, guys... people will totally misunderstand and lose their shit over this"? Absolutely.
I can see how some people would feel insulted by these, especially without knowing the context. Still, there's a colossal difference between people who mean no harm (be it due to lack of knowledge on their part or misinterpretation on the public's part) and those who actually hate and discriminate against people of certain races.
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Apr 05 '18 edited May 19 '20
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Apr 05 '18
I got “Ching Chong, small dicked chink” yelled at me at least once a week from 3rd grade to 8th grade. I went to school in the inner city, so not the greatest place. I was a minority among minorities.
But those were kids who grew up not knowing better.
When you’re on the stage or in stream and more or less indirectly representing a multibillion company’s image, you need to think very carefully, which is extremely difficult. But it’s just something you have to do.
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Apr 05 '18
you need to think very carefully, which is extremely difficult.
I think this is overstatement. They only need to think very carefully if they're brimming with racist thoughts and feelings.
We're not asking OWL players to critically think about and discuss racism culture, which would difficult, we're just asking them to not say and do racist things. If that's a high ask of an OWL player, that's a problem.
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Apr 05 '18
Casual racism is everywhere. It takes careful thinking to stop it.
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u/mig-san Apr 05 '18
Same with casual homophobia, people use terms like 'that's gay' not refering to sexuality, but just in a negative manner as if it were the equivalent of 'that's bad'
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u/oconnor663 Apr 05 '18
They only need to think very carefully if they're brimming with racist thoughts
This is equating precisely the two things OP was asking people not to equate.
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u/dryloaf Apr 05 '18
Agree. I was bullied from 1st through college for being Asian. People would constantly talk to me in the stereotypical Vietnamese immigrant lady voice, pull their eyes in front of me and yell "ching chong", call me by the my countrys negative slang for a Japanese person. It sucked to be mocked for my appearence, and therefore incidents like eqo’s are very sensitive for me.
I have a hard time understanding why people don’t consider it a big deal just because it’s so common to make fun of Asians. Pulling your eyes to look Asian isn’t that far from the black face incidents. Where do we draw the line for what is okay to do and what’s not?
I hope this can make people think twice before they do anything in attempt to portray anyone’s ethnicity.
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u/mwriteword Apr 05 '18
I'm with you on this. In another thread on Eqo, I saw a lot of people saying "He didn't do it in an offensive way" or "He didn't mean for it to be offensive." I mean, it's an inherently offensive gesture. The intention doesn't change that. Truthfully, he didn't have to do the gesture. His point was made without it. But having seen the video, it seemed like he was more interested in a cheap laugh than not doing something racially insensitive.
And yeah, it's frankly a little frustrating that every time there's some big Asian-racism controversy, we gotta have some big discussion about whether or not it's offensive or not (spoiler: it is).
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Apr 05 '18
Same here. Back in middle/high school, people would pull their eyes outwards and squint at me all the time, and do some shitty imitation of chinese.
I always responded by pushing the corners of my eyes inwards with my fingers, opening my eyes as much as possible, and saying things like "hey BRO wanna go SURFING" and other such phrases.
they were always taken aback, it was great. never had anyone I did that to slant-eye me again.
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Apr 05 '18
Unfortunately too many people assume that this stuff doesn't matter, because they're not affected by it.
Can't upvote your comment enough.
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u/NoFuneralGaming Apr 05 '18
Exactly. People that don't face racial discrimination don't understand this at all. Racist or not, the behavior is equally dangerous.
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u/RedShirtKing Apr 05 '18
This is the most important part of it to me. It's easy for majority groups to say that intent is all that matters in these cases, but that reading ignores the day-to-day experiences of the minorities that have endured racism and the normalization of racially insensitive behavior. As a white dude in the US, I never had to face most of the issues that affect the people I care about.
You only have to listen to a few stories like yours to understand there's a real issue here, and being an ally means stepping up and calling this behavior out rather than trying to dismiss it because someone "didn't mean it that way." I'm glad voices like yours are being heard in this thread.
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u/scarydrew Start 1902 Current 2526 — Apr 05 '18
Agreed, the inconvenience of the offender being called a racist is really not fucking important. The people who suffer from the racially insensitive comments are what's important.
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u/IAmCyanimal Apr 05 '18
While I agree the victim has more sympathy from me, I have to disagree with you're statement that it's not important.
Calling someone a racist isn't a small deal. Now it's certainly the offender's fault for even putting themselves in the position to be called racist, and I agree it's not the responsibility of the victim to decipher the true meaning. That being said I don't think that gives one the power to simply throw around the word racist at people without actual evidence (for lack of a better term).
If I'm gonna accuse someone of stealing from me I better have more to go on then I last saw them in the room with the item. In a way it is and always has been the onus of the accuser to backup their claim.
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u/dmun Apr 05 '18
Forcing the victim to have to sort out the perpetrator's intentions on the spot is frankly, stupid. As far as I'm concerned, you do something that could be interpreted as racist, it's on you to prove you aren't racist. It's not on me to decipher that for them.
Here fucking here. Folks are out here bending over backwards to protect someone from a word a fucking label because that person used a fucking word or label. And asking the people who have deal with this stuff in their daily lives to pick up the tab.
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u/eggbutts Apr 05 '18
exactly this. why are yall so hell-bent on making sure people know eqo is Not Racist? He can prove it himself by changing his behavior and not getting in trouble again. btw none of you have even met eqo for more than 2 minutes, so you're all talking out of your ass when you claim you know he's "just an ignorant kid"
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u/steIIar Apr 06 '18
my thoughts exactly. how do you guys know he isn't a racist? because he's good at overwatch?
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u/merrissey 8=============D ameng wuz here — Apr 05 '18
/thread. Expertly stated. The gaming community is young, underdeveloped, and unprofessional. No, this is not the time to start pointing out semantics as to what is "kind of racist" vs "totally fucking racist". This is the time to punish people who fall under the wide spectrum of racial insensitivity to set an example and try to make professional gaming, and gaming as a whole, appear more put together. Any medium that goes mainstream experiences this eventually, and we shouldn't stall this progression by trying to protect people who are being slightly less racist than other people.
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u/ckaili Apr 05 '18
The irony is that the label of "racist" precluding any nuance in understanding the accused individual and his/her intentions is exactly what racism/racial insensitivity perpetrates on racial minorities. It's as if some people feel entirely entitled to demand individual consideration, not realizing that many others simply learn that they must do without it.
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u/flyinhyphy BORN 2 DPS — Apr 05 '18
racists and wanting to be (mis)interpreted as insensitive with no introspection whatsoever, name a more iconic duo.
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u/The_Dynasty_Warrior Aug 19 '18
Same here bro. All my asian friends went through that. Guys get called chinks regardless which Asian countries they're from all the time
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u/nashfrostedtips + Defiant/Team Canada — Apr 05 '18
I feel like Eqo's case was worse than xQc's.
xQc had, imo, a degree of plausible deniability with his consistent use of the emote as his welcome to chat, there's no world where Eqo doesn't understand that slanting his eyes is highly inappropriate and comes with a major racial connotation.
If this had been the other way around as far as who did what, xQc would have been fucking crucified.
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Apr 05 '18
I'm an Asian-American who suffered discrimination for it when I was a kid. I remember people making the slanty eyes gesture at me and mocking me, and it still hurts today to think about.
What Eqo did was certainly racially insensitive, and I think his punishment was justified, but I also don't hate him, and I don't think he's racist. I'm willing to let him learn from his mistake and certainly give him a second chance.
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u/nashfrostedtips + Defiant/Team Canada — Apr 05 '18
I'm not saying that he's racist, I just don't buy his claim of ignorance. Philadelphia's actions are why I'd agree on a second chance, his individual actions in the aftermath were poor imo.
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Apr 05 '18
I don't know too much about his background, but if he grew up in other parts of the world, I think it's absolutely plausible that he at least didn't understand the full import of the gesture, and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. If he was an American player, I absolutely would not buy it.
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u/HandsomeHodge Apr 06 '18
there's no world where Eqo doesn't understand that slanting his eyes is highly inappropriate and comes with a major racial connotation.
Remember that EQO is Israeli. Israel has a population of almost 9 million, of which around 100,000 are east asian. It's entirely possible he didn't understand the racial connotation, though I'm not him so I can't say for sure.
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u/ImReallyGrey Apr 05 '18
Just to be clear, EQO and the org made genuine apologies after EQO trying to delete the evidence and made a shitty justification tweet that angled what he did as somehow being a compliment.
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u/mortigan Apr 05 '18
Aw, I salute your futile effort to bring common sense to race discussions in 2018.
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u/clickrush Apr 05 '18
If you read throught the comments it seems most people have balanced/moderate opinions on the matter.
This discussion has become too focussed on the extremes in media, while most people's feelings and opinions are often much more complex.
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u/skordge What Would Bumper Do? — Apr 05 '18
People who care enough to read into posts such as yours, comment on them properly, and in general try to research the situations they are forming their opinions on, unsurprisingly tend to have nuanced and grounded opinions on things. They are not the problem. People who just read "xQc is racist" and just take that at face value or disagree without reading further because of their preconceptions are the problem.
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u/Gangster301 Apr 05 '18
Literally every single time I've voiced this opinion I've been downvoted to hell.
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u/lavandris 2781 PC — Apr 05 '18
But reducing complex issues to a binary makes my externalized self-loathing so much easier to justify!
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u/dannycake Apr 05 '18
This situation very true.
Most of my friends are pretty liberal bit dislike a lot of media focused liberal bs. Likewise when people find out that I'm conservative they're pretty surprised that I actually have a moral compass. The Truth of the matter is most people have a decently nuanced opinion and we go for the throat at the tail 5% ends of the spectrum.
We have lost the ability to even talk in the same platforms and don't even know how to relate to each other in conversations these days. These conversations have gotten so out of control lately that people have gotten so unrelatable with each other when it's the opposite. I think that's the goal and we need to fight back and realize that 90% of everyone around us wants a better place around us for everyone.
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u/CyborgJunkie Apr 05 '18 edited Apr 05 '18
The worst thing about this debate is people assuming everyone have the same fundamental history to judge these matters. If everyone should be aware of all racially insensitive gestures/actions all across the globe, then you should also know they aren't as universal as you might think.
Edit: Interesting view on how Chinese see blackface: https://youtu.be/YsJWGTmJU94
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u/skordge What Would Bumper Do? — Apr 05 '18
This is exactly right. There is no way you can be aware of every way you can be racist or insensitive in every culture of the world. Hell, it is frankly quite naive and even itself insensitive for some Americans to think that their cultural norms to automatically apply to every culture.
And to keep ranting on the subject, I find it quite hypocritical of the West to be so sensitive about racism issues on black people, Latinos and Asians, while being really insensitive towards e.g. any Slavic culture and Eastern Europe in general. I'm Russian, and I do get a bit annoyed about the vast majority of Western media depictions of my culture to be so stereotypical we even have a special word in Russian to describe this phenomenon. We are constantly depicted as crooks and drunkards in mainstream Western media, because we somehow are acceptable targets for xenophobia. Full disclosure: I don't mind too much personally, it's honestly so grotesque it's perceived as satire. Hell, when e.g. TviQ goes full cheeki-breeki Slavic tracksuit squat hard-bass cyka blyat rush B - it's obviously all in good fun, because it's all jokes and memes. But WTF with the double standards on this, dudes?
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u/ElementOfConfusion Apr 06 '18
I'm Irish, and I personally hate how Americans seem to assume their identity politics, culture and racism are relevant and standard everywhere. Most of it doesn't even apply in Europe, let alone the rest of the world.
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Apr 07 '18
^ This can't even be stressed enough.
Fanart can easily lead to a shitstorm over "whitewashing" whereas "blackwashing" would be perfectly acceptable and even empowering. Why the double standards? I'm assuming there is a lot more history behind whitewashing in the US but why do people assume the American standards apply to every person on the internet?
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u/Etherlite Apr 05 '18
How else do you expect a mostly Chinese population to portray Africans? It's more about how you use the prop and the ideas you're presenting that might make something racist or in ill taste.
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u/kainhighwind Apr 05 '18
YES. Let's focus on the real issue here–people being called racists.
I'm sure we'll get around putting our energy and effort into fighting actual racism in gaming and eSports sometime soon! 🙄
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Apr 05 '18
It's definitively step into the right direction (compared to what most of the people here write about those fine cases), but it's still far from being common sense.
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u/pm_me_ur_wrasse Apr 05 '18
Yeah, I'm not willing to let people be absolved of responsibility for their behaviors.
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u/ituralde_ Apr 05 '18
That's not what I'm trying to say. I've gotten that comment a lot, so I've gathered I didn't communicate this well in the OP so I apologise for that.
People who engage it this stuff absolutely should be punished for crossing the line.
They also should be given the path to redemption should they choose to earnestly pursue it.
We don't gain anything by eternal condemnation of someone earnestly trying to learn a valuable lesson.
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u/topunishandenslav3 Apr 05 '18
Fact remains that this attitude of "it's funny to trololol and say racially insensitive stuff" needs to end. I understand they are young and mistakes happen, but really it's an infuriating trend I see among twitch culture. It goes along with it's funny to tell streamers they are ugly, fat, autistic, they should kill themselves, etc. I'm happy there's a zero tolerance policy from Blizzard in regards to this. Maybe I'm just getting old.
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Apr 05 '18
Racism is believing awful things about some group.
imagine this definition being written in a dictionary lol. Would be a dictionary for kids
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u/Pattonesque Apr 05 '18
honestly something is posted every day on this sub that reminds me how incredibly young some of the fanbase is
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u/MaagicMushies KKona Clap Brother — Apr 05 '18
It's overly simplified, but still correct.
You aren't racist until you put one race under another and thoroughly believe that said race is inferior. Acknowledging that a black guy is a black guy is annoying and insensitive, but not racist.
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u/The_NZA 3139 PS4 — Apr 05 '18
No acknowledging a Black guy's race is not insensitivity. One of the major tenants of race based discussions from the people on the forefront of racial critique is that identifying Whiteness as a force and a power is essential for the deconstruction of racism. WIthout the ability to say "White" or "Black", you can't combat racism effectively.
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u/MaagicMushies KKona Clap Brother — Apr 05 '18
I should have said pointing out instead of acknowledging. Something like the TriHard thing with Malik is pretty insensitive because it's kinda like saying "this guys is black and you're black so you two are pretty much the same xD"
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u/dmun Apr 05 '18
I'll make it even easier: being a racist is lacking aspects of basic respect, due to someone's race.
And that can manifest in many ways.
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u/carterx3 Apr 05 '18
Acknowledging a black person as a black person is annoying... Is it annoying that acknowledging a blue sky is blue? Or acknowledging a wood table is made of wood? I don't get your point.... unless you mean being a black person is inherently bad.... 🤔🤔🤔
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u/MaagicMushies KKona Clap Brother — Apr 05 '18
Also: to answer your rhetorical questions, Yes. Pointing out that the sky is blue is annoying because everyone can see that the sky is blue. Telling someone that the sky is blue is blue is just wasting their time with pointless facts that they need to do. It's unnecessary
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u/bevedog Apr 05 '18
Jay Smooth's How to Tell Someone They Sound Racist addresses this in a way that I find useful and resonant, and that I have thought a lot about over the last ten years.
He distinguishes between the "That thing you said was racist" conversation vs. the "I think you ARE a racist" conversation.
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u/ituralde_ Apr 05 '18
I'll have to check that out later. Thanks for sharing. That line between "action" vs "personal judgement" are what I was trying to communicate.
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u/The-Formula Apr 05 '18
Racial insensitivity is still racism. It shouldn't be ignored. The problem is some people think only KKK type racism is harmful.
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Apr 05 '18 edited Mar 28 '19
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u/Signore Apr 05 '18
Whether it be from ignorance or not, insensitivity is racist. This post (OP) bothers me because tolerance of behavior such as this has an additive effect. If there was no backlash it normalizes it.
Saying they won't learn from it is stupid. A group as a whole misses an opportunity to learn by brushing it off. Right now that group is the competitive overwatch subreddit.
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u/niboosmik Apr 05 '18
as a POC, I think ignoring "racial insensitivity" is worse than racism. I prefer outright bigots to softspoken nerds spamming "trihard 7"
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u/Orym Apr 05 '18
I really like this, but I don't think it accounts for a lot of the cultural gaps that are apparent in OWL due to the diverse player base. I grew up between Israel and California, so I understand Eqo's racial insensitivity, especially because that type of joke might've been considered funny in Israel, which is a considerably Western society. However, NA, and especially California, is a much more politically correct and racially sensitive culture than say Israel, and I think it's a good thing to have a high bar, but not when many players are aware it might exist, or atleast not the form it manifests itself in.
I agree with you that this should only mean we need to condemn the player's actions rather than the player's themselves, but I think the League Office and the teams must take a proactive step toward cutting down these sorts of cultural barriers, and in turn, racial in-sensitivities.
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u/skepticones Apr 05 '18 edited Apr 06 '18
A lot of the foreign players grew up in countries where everyone looks the same and has the same cultural background. They aren't prepared for the racial sensitivity in the US and the league needs to recognize that. These kids aren't racist - they just don't understand the expectations of our culture and the scrutiny they will face.
The league needs to step up and hire someone full-time to prepare the players when they sign contracts. Education will prevent 99% of these incidents.
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Apr 05 '18
Right as you may be, you miss the mark in my opinion, it's not about that intend or meaning, it's about a zero-tolerance policy to protect the IP and partners, so the degree of the offence is moot.
Football players get fined all the time for stupid stuff, get scrutinised by the media and hated or loved by the fans.
So even if it does seem to be extraordinarily strict, it is the only way forward if OWL wishes to be taken seriously as an organisation - in the long run, it will serve both players and the league positively, both in becoming a publically accepted sport and also to provide guidelines for aspiring professional players.
OWL is a monster project, not only because of the size and production value of the league but also Blizzards philosophy to make their products available to the masses and not just the core fanbase, they are treading new ground, stomping hard in the floor to be noticed, and accepted - so in the interim of bridging the gap between the internet casuals and hardcore twitchmemers we are bound to have striding opinions of what is okay and what is not.
I find the zero-tolerance policy the only plausible solution, regardless of how ridiculous it may seem at times.
Imagine being on a ethics board tasked with deciding what is offensive and what isn't - sounds like a horror story to me. Atleast this way they can both show the sponsers and the media that they take it seriously, so even if the solution is far from perfect, its far better than the alternative in my opinion.
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u/BrNaTToS Apr 05 '18
Imagine being on a ethics board tasked with deciding what is offensive and what isn't
But now they need to diciding how much offensive everything is, why Taimu and xQc are punish different and Taimu, Tairong, EQO and Profit are punish in the same form (for the league)?
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Apr 05 '18
Fair enough, but at least they only have to decide on that, and not both - but I get your point.
My hope is that they will learn with time, so once they establish precedence they can use s1 fines to determine(too harsh/too soft etc) a more streamlined set of penalties in the future.
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u/king314 Apr 05 '18
I feel like you're arguing a completely different point from the OP. The OP even said racial insensitivity should be punished, and it often has to be punished harshly for exactly the reasons you outlined. My understanding of the OP's post was that the OWL community, aka the people who watch OWL, should be more nuanced in their condemnation. OWL itself obviously can't do this because they basically just have to act at the whims of their viewership.
Now will this post actually accomplish what it seeks to? It's unlikely that it has even a 1% impact. But it's nice to see that some people can intelligently detect the difference between different "wrongs" and react accordingly, even if in aggregate the masses can't observe much nuance.
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u/uberHasu Apr 05 '18
Football players get fined all the time for stupid stuff, get scrutinised by the media and hated or loved by the fans.True, but lets not pretend that this is a fair comparison. If you took football players and mic'ed them up for every game, every practice, every casual pickup game they played, that would be getting closer to what OWL is experiencing. These players are being held to a standard that isn't really present in other sports simply because of the level of exposure they have.
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u/Amadeu5L Apr 05 '18
In terms of punishments they should be handed to people who perform racist acts like EQO did. I'm sure he isn't racist but it does show that Blizzard is proactively against Racism and alike. For us as fans and viewers must keep in mind that most of these players are some what immature but most definitely green in terms of being the face of a premier event. So give them some slack and let them learn their lessons before we reach for the pitchfork. And I'm willing to bet most of us would've accidentally made some sort of racist joke or gesture but will never get reprimanded to the degree these guys will.
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u/wizzerd229 Apr 05 '18
racial insensitivity is a subset of racism, try again
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u/wizzerd229 Apr 05 '18
also racism is not "bigotry against 'some group'" its bigotry against marginalized races. IE, you cant be racist against white people in the USA
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Apr 05 '18
TLDR: Racism and racial insensitivity are two different things
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u/Numyza Apr 05 '18
This is really just redefining something that already exists. It generally goes under the concept of "casual racism". Where certain concepts are ingrained in society or your upbringing and you use them without really understanding the implication they have on other people.
Casual racism is still racism. It still persists certain concepts and ideology even if the people saying these things don't actively believe in superiority over the other group. That's what makes this such a big thing. These people aren't bad individuals per say, but them saying these thing still perpetuates things that are damaging to others.
This topic I find is very dangerous because it's so nuanced. It's very easy to think "i'm not a bad guy because I don't think this way" when one still says or does certain seemingly innocent things that damage others. Acknowledging and changing these habits makes you a good person.
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u/atgrey24 None — Apr 05 '18
I think OP's point is the necessary separation of a racist/racially insensitive acts and racist intentions. Attacking a person's entire identity ("You are a racist") makes them defensive and unlikely to hear the necessary criticism. Highlighting their actions ("this thing you did/said is racist, even if you didn't mean it that way") allows them the distance to recognize and hopefully change those habits.
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u/Numyza Apr 05 '18
I can get on board with that. In simplier terms it may be the concept that good people can do bad things and bad people can do good things. Just because someone did something bad doesn't mean they are a bad person, they just need to learn from that instance and grow.
The issue I have with the discussion is just that I fear it may devolve into one where people defend bad actions as "being different or misunderstood". It's very easy for any group to reason their behavior away. Something all of us have to make sure doesn't happen.
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u/Uiluj Apr 05 '18
I agree that if everyone did this then the world would be a better place, but it leaves a sour taste in my mouth to treat adults like children. We paternalize racially insensitive people because they're not mature enough to understand their actions in the context of a global culture. I highly doubt EQO though it was okay to do the squinty eyes gesture in front of an Asian person, and xQc wouldn't say "go suck a dick, I bet you'd like it" to Muma's face.
They already know what they did was stupid, but the camera made them think there would be no consequences. Jake mentioned this, xQc is a nice guy in person, but he talks shit about Jake when he's alone in front of a computer. It's why people who cyberbully or send death threats via the internet probably wouldn't do that in real life. There's something about the internet that makes people think there aren't real people with real feelings on the other side of the screen.
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u/atgrey24 None — Apr 05 '18
I don't think it's necessarily patronizing to hold someone accountable for an action, but not hold that action over them forever. This is especially true for first offenses. There were repercussions for EQO's actions (between fines and donations the dude is losing 10% of his yearly salary, on top of the other suspensions), and while they were appropriate I think he also gets an opportunity to learn from this.
Repeat offenses result in harsher punishments and less forgiveness, as evidenced by xqc.
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Apr 05 '18 edited Apr 06 '18
Gotta disagree with you big time on this. Racial insensitivity does not always equate to casual racism
Racism is, by definition, assuming superior status of one race over others. Period.
Casual racism definitely exists, where someone is brought up believing a certain thing (hate blacks, Jews, Asians, Mexicans, Irish, Indians, Whites etc.), and they don't realize that some of their own beliefs are racist/prejudiced.
But there is an enormous difference between that level of racism and doing something that is insensitive.
A HUGE amount of Asians are shorter than your average person from, say, the Netherlands.
Does that mean a guy from the Netherlands calling someone who is Asian short is making a Racist statement?
Well, that completely depends on WHY you are calling them short. Are you doing so because you believe their Asian genes are inferior because it made them short? Well, then yes that is racism.
But if you're doing it to "poke fun" just by calling them short, then you are not being racist.
If you make fun of them for having almond shaped eyes, are you doing it because you feel their eyes make them strictly inferior as a race? Or are you poking fun?
My wife teaches English to Chinese kids every morning online. She recently told me a story where a kid about 4 years old saw a black guy on one of the slides on the teaching power point. The boy, after likely never seeing a black guy before, pointed at the picture and said "Too dark! Too dark!"
By your logic, this boy is a racist.
Clearly, this boy did not mean "That guy is too dark, and therefore he is inferior." Whether he knew it or not, he DID say something insensitive though.
Please note, I'm not excusing the things EQO did. I'm also not saying people shouldn't be allowed to be offended.
But saying being racially insensitive is the same as casual racism is just simply not true, fair, or realistic.
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u/BlameReborn Apr 05 '18
Regardless what he did was wrong and he deservingly got fined for it. End of story.
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u/HyliaSymphonic Apr 05 '18
Racism is believing awful things about some group.
Racial insensitivity is saying something about a group that is offensive.
Simply put these are made up definitions. And honestly not great ones.
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u/lavarift None — Apr 05 '18
While I agree with you for the most part, I don't think it's helpful to try to categorize the actions themselves into racist or racially insensitive. While xQc didn't use Trihard in a racist way (arguably not even a racially insensitive way), the way others use it is flat out racist. Similarly, while I agree that EQO isn't racist and looking down on Asian people, the slanty-eyed thing is definitely used maliciously/in a racist way. It's completely about intent, and while people could argue that maybe it's some subconscious level of blah blah, I think it's more important that people are willing to learn from their mistakes and become a better person.
And while again, I agree that a middle ground should be found in all of this, at the end of the day, what these two players did was and is wrong. And I've seen a considerable number of people throwing out "special snowflake sjw"-type language. Just because the intent wasn't malicious doesn't mean people haven't suffered bullying or racism directed at them with these actions from other people. Just as the players have gone through different experiences creating context for whatever stupid actions they do, so have the fans who were hurt by them.
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u/ituralde_ Apr 05 '18
It's important because there's a difference between malicious intent and hurtful impact.
And it goes both ways.
Do we win by condemning these kids as racist? No, we win by having them and their fans all learn a collective lesson about how to treat each other. If they clearly intend to deliberately be racist, that's one thing, but malicious intent is not the same as ignorance or carelessness.
I don't mean to make the distinction that insensitivity is somehow OK. Instead, I mean to express that someone who is insensitive without racist intent is someone who is teachable, and it's a wasted opportunity to not teach that person in that moment.
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u/lavarift None — Apr 05 '18
I agree with everything you said, I just think the way to describe it should be slightly different? I don't think there should be a distinction between racism and racial insensitivity. I think the difference should be instead of calling a person racist, we should call their action racist (unless the person is racist, obviously lol). I think creating degrees of racism in actions will only make some seem defensible.
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u/Man_Breath Apr 05 '18
100%
Racial insensitivity and racism are both wrong, but the former can be corrected with a little bit of understanding and added maturity.
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Apr 05 '18
First of all, I don't like xQc but
I legit lost count how many times people MUST include this in their posts. We get it. Come on now.
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u/reddit455 Apr 05 '18
I don't understand why this is even being talked about... adults take their punishment without argument. Blizzard has a brand to protect. True professionals do not make a distinction.
A Houston Astros player who made a seemingly racist gesture mocking a Los Angeles Dodgers pitcher during Game 3 of the World Series Friday night will be suspended for five games next season, Major League Baseball Commissioner Rob Manfred said Saturday.
Upon returning to the dugout after his homerun, Gurriel appeared to mock Dodgers pitcher Yu Darvish, who is Japanese, by pulling on the corner of his eyes.
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u/afouisme Apr 05 '18
adults take their punishment without argument
lol, wtf...
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u/reddit455 Apr 05 '18
show me a REAL professional athlete who has filed a complaint for a suspension or fine for asshole behavior..
they're fined 10's of thousands, suspended for games.. yet they just take it. you don't see CAVs fans clamoring for a rule that defines the soup that may or may not be thrown.
little babies bitch about "not fair"
maybe you'll figure out the definition of "detrimental conduct" while you sit on the bench (and potentially NOT GET paid for performance based incentives)
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u/ChocolateMorsels Apr 05 '18
You're just making stuff up. Professional athletes appeal suspensions or fines all the time for either total reversal of the penalty or a reduction. It usually takes a while to get through the process and is a smaller news story when a final settlement is reached, however.
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u/drugsrgay Apr 05 '18
The OWL also allows appeals too, I think this poster is talking about publicly complaining after the appeal process. If not then they are just completely ignorant.
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u/MakePlaysOW Apr 05 '18
Literally every nfl player appeals fines or suspensions. It’s part of the process that the NFLPA takes regardless of how nefarious the action that’s being punished.
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u/Lord_Giggles Apr 05 '18
Adults don't just take their punishment without argument, what sort of logic is that? If you think you're being labelled or punished unfairly, you should contest it, and most people would expect an adult to do so.
Blizzard is a bit too lose with the ways they describe player behaviour, particularly with the racism or racially disparaging thing, and it leads to longer term consequences when that stuff is then forever associated with those players.
Edit: Though I think his punishment is pretty fair when you consider the extra team stuff.
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u/reddit455 Apr 05 '18
"Adults don't just take their punishment without argument, what sort of logic is that?"
so where is the fight? all of these guys took their suspensions/fines without argument.
where is the bitching from these guys?
where is the outcry from the fans coming to the defense of these players?
where is the Player's Association/Union representation?
there isn't any, because they are adults who realized they fucked up. immature children need every rule spelled out for them.
throws soup- suspended
throws mouth guard - 50k fine
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/oct/23/stephen-curry-fine-ejection-golden-state-warriors-nba
wore socks wrong - 10k fine.
"Blizzard is a bit too lose with the ways they describe player behaviour,"
give me a fucking break. there is no NBA rule that explicitly prohibits the throwing of soup.
these rules are wide open. how the fuck can you assess a technical foul against the CROWD.. they have no "agreement" in place.. other than don't be a wanker.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsportsmanlike_conduct
Unsportsmanlike conduct (also called unsporting behaviour or ungentlemanly conduct or bad sportsmanship or poor sportsmanship) is a foul or offense in many sports that violates the sport's generally accepted rules of sportsmanship and participant conduct.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_foul
In basketball, a technical foul (also colloquially known as a "T" or a "Tech") is any infraction of the rules penalized as a foul which does not involve physical contact during the course of play between opposing players on the court, or is a foul by a non-player. The most common technical foul is for unsportsmanlike conduct. Technical fouls can be assessed against players, bench personnel, the entire team (often called a bench technical), or even the crowd. These fouls, and their penalties, are more serious than a personal foul, but not necessarily as serious as a flagrant foul (an ejectable offense in leagues below the NBA, and potentially so in the NBA).
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u/ChocolateMorsels Apr 05 '18
I responded to you above, but again, this is all so hilariously wrong that I feel the need to reply to this one. You're just making stuff up. The world you're describing isn't the one we live in. For any of you gamers reading that don't follow sports, athletes appeals fines, suspensions, and other penalties all the time. The fans of course get pissed at suspensions (see xqc fans). Every single major sports league has a players union (he seems to imply they don't exist?), and that players union will happily come to the defense of their player. If what you're saying here were true lawyers wouldn't have a job.
You don't know what you're talking about, stop acting like you do.
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u/Lord_Giggles Apr 06 '18
First off, we have absolutely no way of knowing if they fight the punishments because it's all internal. I believe xQc did say he did later on though, but it didn't matter because he has absolutely no power.
And athletes in mainstream leagues get fined more because they make more. A thousand dollar fine to someone worth $60 million dollars isn't exactly a big deal. You're misrepresenting the soup thing too. He threw soup at someone because he was in a shit mood, which absolutely deserves punishment.
And once again, how would we know if those punishments were contested? The players union isn't going to come out and bad mouth the whole league, they'll work internally before the punishment is handed out, or appeal afterwards through official methods.
give me a fucking break. there is no NBA rule that explicitly prohibits the throwing of soup.
I didn't say anything about rules, I said about how they describe player behaviour. I have no issue with them punishing for people acting offensively on stream or twitter, but the wording they use is unnecessarily harsh and likely career damaging.
Like the other guy said, pretty much everything you just said is wrong. Things like unions and lawyers exist pretty much entirely so adults can fight against punishments and being treated poorly. Would you like me to send you some examples of court cases where people didn't just accept their punishment, and instead hired lawyers to try to get out of it, and then continued to appeal afterwards?
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u/Auszi Apr 05 '18
By that logic, the appeals court system is useless for adults and all sentencing by judges should be final.
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u/ituralde_ Apr 05 '18
It's important because the community here is different and the players are much closer to the fanbase. If we shut the door on the idea that it's possible to reform, the player that makes the mistake will get defensive instead of actually accepting the punishment and learning their lesson. You'll get reactions like XQC instead of a proper professional player.
The end goal of all of this is that we stop being dicks to each other. It takes so little effort to be respectful, and it's not helpful to draw a battle line and kick someone to the opposite side of it. Where possible, we should build our punishments and community culture around the expectation of reform rather than punishment for the sake of self-satisfaction.
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u/polloshermanosfan Apr 05 '18
I agree with you completely. Echoing what /u/MacGregor3 said, I think many people don't understand that Blizzard and OWL are a business - at the end of the day, the purpose of businesses is to make money for investors. Regardless of your own personal feelings about the intentions or severity of players' actions, the league has every interest in maintaining a squeaky clean brand to appeal to the most people around the world.
For example, Sado got a massive punishment for running an account boosting business. As an American, I don't really give a shit about boosting (especially because many professionals had no way to make money on OW in 2017, the scene was really struggling and lots of great players had to leave to make money in other games) and think that his punishment should have been a fine or shorter suspension. But Korean fans are furious that boosters are even allowed in the league and hate them - even professionals hate boosters! So in the interest of maintaining image, Blizzard gave Sado a gigantic 30 game suspension to not damage their international appeal.
tl;dr doesn't matter the intention behind a person's action, if it hurts the league's image then it's in their best interest to punish them
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u/PoopTastik Apr 05 '18
I don't think the post was arguing that the punishment is the problem. The label is the issue, punish the players for fucking up, for sure. But don't label someone as a racist when they make a mistake by offending people of a culture they don't fully understand. We have to remember these are kids playing this game. Many players had to sit on the bench because they hadn't turned 18 yet. When i was 17 I was a complete and utter idiot, and if my actions were judged by the world in front of hundreds of thousands of people I would have been crucified.
Punish actions accordingly but don't write a kid off for making a mistake, that will just create a bitter resentful person.
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Apr 05 '18
True pros are still people that can think and apply logic. They should make the distinction.
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u/steIIar Apr 06 '18
why would you say something offensive about a group if you didn't believe it? how are you determining whether someone is a racist ("believing awful things about some group") and racial insensitivity ("saying something about a group that is offensive")? how many racist "jokes" does someone have to make before they're determined to be a racist? and why do you think it's possible to know someone is NOT a racist without knowing them, but dismiss people who think that they are? this honestly makes no sense
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u/zeflyingtoaster Apr 05 '18
You don't have to be stupid to do stupid things and you don't have to be racist to do racist things. It's called fucking up. You can have the very best of intentions and still fuck up. The problem is when two sides want to focus on different halves of that sentence. There's xQc and EQO and their white knights who want/wanted to be judged solely by their intent, and the other equally judgy and sanctimonious side wants to focus solely on the fuckup. We're not going to get anywhere if we keep ignoring the nuance here. Smart people can do stupid things. Non-racists can do racist things. It doesn't define you as a person. But it also doesn't excuse you from the consequences.
Is xQc or EQO racist? No. Did they fuck up and do racist things? Yes. Did they fuck up even more by trying to play the "I didn't mean to harm anyone" card? Also yes. Remember what Nate Nanzer said the first time xQc got suspended. Nobody expects the players to be perfect paragons of virtue. Everyone is expected to act like professionals in a professional environment.
So far only Tairong managed to deal with his fuckup professionally. He immediately apologized and didn't rationalize his action or hide behind his ignorance or protest that he didn't mean to offend.
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u/Sergster1 Apr 05 '18 edited Apr 05 '18
If you're using Tairong's apology in saying he managed to deal with his fuckup professionally keep in mind that he apologized immediately once it was pointed out that he fucked up. xQc did the same thing with the Muma incident. I'm not saying that xQc didn't deserve the punishment but don't act like xQc was unprofessional in his response once it was pointed out to him.
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u/Lipat97 Apr 06 '18
I'm not saying that xQc didn't deserve the punishment but don't act like xQc was unprofessional in his response once it was pointed out to him.
I believe the responses afterwards negated that.
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Apr 05 '18
Are you really going to sit there and not defend yourself when your employer and your fans label you something you're not. All they are doing was claryifing their intent and apologizing. It's not like xQC they are refusing to pay a fine or sue the company lol
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u/zaqen rip — Apr 05 '18
Racial insensitivity is just a subset of racism though. Being racially insensitive is racist in nature but racism isn't necessarily racial insensitivity.
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u/CodeOfHammuRobbie Apr 05 '18
Pretty much. Racial insensitivity is a direct product of racism and people like to pretend racism is restricted to your stereotypical KKK activity.
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u/Myst-Vearn Apr 05 '18
I some how read this as Racism vs Rascal and thought... another fuel drama? :0
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Apr 05 '18 edited May 18 '18
[deleted]
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u/ituralde_ Apr 05 '18
Yeah this.
When young people fuck up, it's not so much a matter of "not knowing" as it is "not thinking shit through". They act without thinking through consequences at all rather than being cognizant of consequences and choosing to act in spite of them. There's a lot in developmental psychology that points in that direction.
Even aside from that, I like the idea of forgiveness where it's warranted. Punish, but also allow for rehabilitation.
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u/yungr33zy Apr 05 '18
I kind of half agree. Racism used to mean discrimination based on race, which none of these players is guilty of. Making jokes about a race is no different from making jokes about a person being fat - yeah it’s mean but it’s not racism.
As a black person when I see the black emotes whenever monkey is mentioned that grinds me up but it ain’t really RACISM. Racism is when your resume gets thrown in the trash because your name is ethnic. When service is denied to you, you are excluded from a membership, or you are disqualified for a loan because of the color of your skin. Shit like that.
But much in the same way that “literally” has come to mean “figuratively” in the dictionary because of colloquial use, the same thing has happened with the definition of racism. Nothing these players did was really racist, but with the new way the world works today, even insensitivity is a big red no-no.
So I can see why they were punished, but I’m not in the camp that thinks the punishments needed to be this harsh.
Believing horrible things about some group is prejudice, not racism. You can be prejudiced against any group- women, Mexicans, Black people, dog owners if you want.
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u/Silverharp Apr 05 '18
"black emotes whenever monkey is mentioned that grinds me up but it ain’t really RACISM"
??????? How is that not racism?
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u/elrayo Apr 05 '18
as a black guy I disagree lmao.
Your definition of racism is very narrow, and doesnt encompass the more subtle and systematic issues were facing today. If theres a joke comparing blacks to monkeys that’s racist.
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u/Noyousername Apr 05 '18
Thanks for that interesting perspective.
It feels like your argument is that (obviously) being racially insensitive is bad, but it takes a habit or pattern of racial insensitivity to be considered 'racist'.
Like, forgive the basic analogy, but:
- 'Stupid' people, say a lot of dumb things
People who say a lot of dumb things, tend to be 'stupid'.
We all say dumb things from time to time, but that doesn't meant we're necessarily 'stupid' - just that we acted 'stupid' way and should be mindful not to.
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u/yungr33zy Apr 05 '18
Kind of, but you can be racist after just one instance though of hard racism.
If you’re a lender and you throw out a loan request because you read my name is Daquan you’re racist.
If we work together and you see me in the hallways and go “ayyyy wassaaap Daquan “ or some shit that’s not racist, you’re racially insensitive or whatever the term. Even though that blatantly references my race and might make me feel weird.
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Apr 05 '18 edited Feb 01 '19
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u/ituralde_ Apr 05 '18
Absolutely. Punish, and turn them into lessons for those to whom they are role models. If XQC had a mentor who got the message across, how many of his fans could he have in turn taught a life lesson to?
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u/sushicid3 SAYAPLAYER NUMBA WON — Apr 05 '18
Wasn't really bothered by what Eqo did, I had far worse things thrown at me during high school in the US (sometimes even from fellow Asians ) but I'm not gonna carry negative sentiments toward other people because they were kids mostly doing it out of ignorance instead of pure malice; besides I definitely have had let loose a few harmful words at moments of poor judgement, can't take the moral high ground when I ain't no saint myself.
I rather have the community spend effort on educating each other and integrating cultures instead of combing through every little bit of media presence for evidence to start a persecution, the small political-correctness victories you get out of social justice does not grant anybody true solace from actual systematic racism that exists in the real world.
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u/caedicus Apr 05 '18
The bottom line are that the standards are different when you're a public persona. We've all said terrible things in private when joking around with our friends, but when it goes public, it really can cause damage. Whether or not it's part of actual systemic racism doesn't matter, because at the very least, it emboldens people who are part of the systemic racism.
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u/EmilMR ExpertArmchairAnalyst — Apr 05 '18
If XQC was banned from streaming the first time, I think he would still be here. They threw him under the bus very quickly. He needed help, he was reformable.
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u/EchoesPartOne Apr 05 '18
I don't think he was. xQc clearly valued his stream persona over his professional career at all times. In no occasion he would give up his rights to speak freely and entertain his viewers. He will never fit in OWL.
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u/The_NZA 3139 PS4 — Apr 05 '18
Anyone watching his "apology stream" after the Muma incident would know he was absolutely not reformable. Dude called everyone critiquing his homophobic comments a "cuck" interspersed with a passable apology for a fraction of the time.
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u/ituralde_ Apr 05 '18
I think some real mentorship would have made a big difference. Maybe that mentor didn't or doesn't exist inside the Fuel, and that's tragic.
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u/_Me_At_Work_ Apr 05 '18
Wow, 3 people of culture all posting in a row on Reddit. Shields Ever Upward!
I think it was clear that there was lack of initiative taken with xQc. So many pro athletes now have handlers, and on the cusp of esports growing to a much larger fashion than it has in the past the OWL players have been thrust to the forefront. Difference is they can directly communicate with fans very easily through Twitch, Twitter, and other formats. There should have been literal hand holding for xQc (and the rest of the team for that matter) to at least lay a set of ground rules as to "this is what we expect" and acceptable vs not acceptable. I feel like this is something that should be league wide, but xQc is just the prime example of why it's needed.
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u/Random_Useless_Tips Apr 05 '18
No.
A mentor isn’t some immediate character changer like this is a movie. Sometimes, people will run themselves into the ground regardless of what support structures you provide around them.
If a person doesn’t want to change, it doesn’t matter who you put with them to try and help them. And xQc, for all his talent, for all his competitive drive, seems to be way more interested in being a streamer than being a pro.
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u/k2u3 Apr 05 '18
You can’t blame him for supporting his stream. He makes a good owl salary on twitch in just a few short months.
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u/wingsfan24 Apr 05 '18
And that's perfectly fine - but someone who values streaming over competing should obviously not be on a pro team
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u/Parenegade None — Apr 05 '18
No he fucking wasn’t. Other teams looked at xQc and they saw the same problems and chose not to get him. Fuel stupidly thought otherwise. Anyone who watches his stream knows this dude isn’t going to change his whole personality for OWL. He’s just not a professional person he’s a streamer.
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u/TakaSol Apr 05 '18
ITT": white guys discussing racism as if they have a say in how it should be handled LMAOOO
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u/youranidiot- Apr 06 '18
Preventing people from discussing a certain topic based on their race LMAOOO
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u/TakaSol Apr 06 '18
Not what i said but go off, keep taking shit at face value LMAO
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u/bonkbonkbonkbonk Apr 06 '18
as if they have a say in how it should be handled LMAOOO
I mean it's right fucking there... you're impressively stupid but then again most racists are
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u/TheSharpShark Apr 05 '18
What a stupid arguement. He's like 22. Stop treating him like a 15 year old. Not like he titled a stream "TriHard 7" a few days after he was banned. I have seen a hundred of these posts and not one of them is good.
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u/AdeonWriter Apr 05 '18
Racism is rasicm.
1.) Racism is not always bad. Racist jokes can still be funny, if the comic artist is respectful and tastful, but they are still racist.
2.) Just because you don't actually believe something, does not make what you said not racist.
3.) Cultural insensitivity IS a subtype of racism. Racism is the umbrella term.
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u/bartlet4us Apr 06 '18
The reason these are punished is that it can and will be used by actual racist people and attempt to get away with it.
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u/sev1nk Apr 05 '18
Sounds like you're splitting hairs. Also, why is this sub so enamored by this dude?
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u/ituralde_ Apr 05 '18
I'm trying to do this for a reason.
These are people that have earned and deserve their punishment.
At the same time, we don't win as a community when the result of this punishment is a bunch of bitter fans who don't understand why the punishment needed to happen.
On top of the punishment needs to be a path to improvement. The best outcome is for real fucking lessons to be learned here, and maybe even some of those fans learning those lessons alongside their favorite players.
I want this community to be better. I'm sick of online gaming being a cessipit of racism, sexism, homophobia, and all sorts of other awful forms of disgusting insensitivity. I'm sick of that being the expectation.
I'm sick of watching it being perpetuated by those with the best of intentions, because they can't back off the pitchfork enough to do anything other than permanently demonize some kid for their worst and most public lapse of judgement even in cases where the kid is demonstrably interested in trying to reform.
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Apr 05 '18
I have a question about the xQc incident that doesnt deserve its own thread:
xQc posted TriHard 7 a lot when tuning into the stream, disregarding what was on the screen. Wouldnt it be racist if xQc decided to not post TriHard 7 when a black person was on screen? Shouldnt equality be the goal? Meaning: If you can post TriHard 7 when there is a white dude on scree, you should also be allowed to post TriHard 7 when there is a black person on screen. Otherwise you would create a double standard, treating different races differently. Wouoldnt that be racist?
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_LIT Fear The Tentacled One — Apr 05 '18
Man, I typed and deleted so many snarky, hostile answers to this, but it's honestly a teachable moment.
Equality of outcome is the goal, in the macro sense. Malik (and tons of other black people) currently have TriHard spammed at them when they appear on screen, irrespective of individual intents. It is unpleasant and racist behavior. This is a fact of their lives that white people do not have to deal with. The outcomes are not currently equal.
The goal, then, is to decrease or eliminate this behavior. One way of doing so is yes, ceasing the TriHard 7 spam when black people are on screen. You think posting TriHard 7s is some sort of equal-opportunity memeing, but it is actively contributing to an unequal, unpleasant outcome for black people regardless of intent.
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u/tencircles Apr 05 '18 edited Apr 06 '18
Equality of outcome is the goal
No. That is mind-meltingly stupid, and you seriously need to reexamine your world view if you truly believe that. Malik works his ass off, and deserves all the success he has. There are other casters who don't deserve the same success since they didn't work as hard, and don't have the same charisma and developed persona that he does. This is equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome and I can guarantee you that Malik doesn't want praise OR criticism thrown his way because of his skin color which is exactly what equality of outcome would entail.
Equality of outcome is not only impossible, it's completely undesirable. Every person of color I've spoken with on the subject wants only to be afforded the same opportunities as their majority counterparts. Applied to the current situation, this simply means Malik should be given the opportunity to have his skin color not be the focal point of any broadcast he appears in. Full stop. It doesn't mean we say he's objectively as good as every other caster because his skin color is different. That type of thinking is the problem to begin with.
According praise to — or criticism of — a person because of their skin color are exactly the same behaviors and they are toxic as fuck no matter which side of the coin you're on. You cannot banish racism by actively engaging in it.
EDIT: Since people are so confused by this, here's two wiki articles. read up before you comment.
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u/Zaniel_Aus Apr 05 '18
I think you've over-interpreted his response, using the word "outcome" was probably not the best choice but read between the lines a bit more and you find you're insulting a guy who actually believes the same thing as you.
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Apr 05 '18
Uh, I think you two are having a small disagreement but overall agree.
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Apr 05 '18
If the worst thing that could happen to your career is being called racist or homophobic then your place in the hierarchy is pretty high.
the targeted harassment and snide comments I've seen to disparage queerfolk is homophobic full stop. If you use homophobic/racial slurs and insults to demean other people it means you effectively view people of color and queerfolk as lesser humans. Your rebranding of certain aspects of racism as racial insensitivity is literally a form of reshaping the percieved nature of social hierarchies into one that suits the offender.
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u/ituralde_ Apr 05 '18
For what it's worth, this is esports. These are all people who are pretty far up in the social hierarchy.
Moving on, let me pose to you a thought experiment.
Have you ever called someone a "cocksucker" as an insult? Ever really thought about the implications of that? Maybe you have. Do you really think most people who use it think very hard about it?
Do you really think people who call others "retards" think about the mentally disabled?
All of these are insensitive things to say but they are phrases used all the time by people who don't think twice about the implication.
It's a form of ignorance.
Does it mean we should excuse it? Absolutely not. People should be punished for their bad behavior.
However, there's a big step between that and going on to brand someone's worldview as perceiving another group as subhuman.
Have you ever had a conversation about something like this where someone has actually stopped and thought about their language and agreed to make a change? That's a positive outcome. That's how we root out the more insidious bits of racisim, homophobia, sexism, and the like out from our society.
We do this by opening the door to people to grow past their ignorance. We punish too - we have standards and don't tolerate those standards being violated - but we don't dismiss people who legitimately don't want to come across as racist or anything else. We give them the opportunity and the path to improvement.
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u/mrjuicepump Apr 05 '18
I think xqc is a dumbass and should’ve realized that he WAS considered a professional and should’ve started acting like one. I would assume it’s not something that can be done overnight of course but he never thought about the consequences and look at where he’s at now. Out of the overwatch league (I’m aware that he probably enjoys streaming more but that’s not the point I’m trying to make)
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u/ituralde_ Apr 05 '18
Yeah, he should have realized it. He fucked up, and I don't mean to pretend otherwise.
The nuance I'm trying to highlight is NOT that the behavior is OK because it's a mistake. It's NOT that it's OK not to know better.
It's that sometimes the nature of the mistake, the gravity of the mistake or the impact of the mistake isn't appreciated by mortal young people from various backgrounds.
If we immediately permanently condemn a guy for such a mistake we put them permanently on the defensive and deny them and any of their supporters the opportunity to learn something positive.
In XQC's case I think his subsequent behavior indicates that (for whatever reason, none that speak well for his judgement) this lesson was lost on him and his fans.
This isn't always a battle of good vs evil. The evil surely ARE out there and ARE a problem. But there are a lot of generally decent people who don't intend to be evil who we shouldn't seek to condemn.
My hope is that XQC eventually gets the message that he does have room for reform and can learn from his mistakes AND do a lot of good by teaching his fans the lesson he could learn from this. That's a huge opportunity and worth more than patting ourselves on the back for burning a witch, and forcing someone who could know better on the wrong side of the battle lines.
I hope that clarifies what I'm trying to say.
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u/Archyes Apr 05 '18
funny, somehow Overwatch is the only one where this is very common. Overwatch had more controversy in 2 months than all others combined in years.
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u/zant- Libero-senpai notice me — Apr 05 '18
CSGO has controversies often too, just recently Sadokist was calling people the n-word on his stream and telling people to kill themselves, which is imo worse than what any OW pro did. We just think OWL has the most controversies because it's new and it's "under heat" so it's easy to look at the bad things.
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Apr 05 '18 edited Apr 05 '18
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/StrokeCockToBans Apr 05 '18
Well when comparing to CS valve and tournament organisers generally do not care what you do unless you match fix/cheat.
The community also cares a lot less about minor stuff like xqc putting a TriHard in chat. I would guess that is because a lot more of CS esports fans as a % are European.
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u/ituralde_ Apr 05 '18
It's not the only one where this is common - it's made more news because they were more aggressive about it so early and often. League of Legends absolutely had similar 'controversy' but it took them longer to start going after this behavior from the start of the LCS.
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u/BiggPapi87 Apr 05 '18
Blizzard are in total control here, and its super bad PR for them if they players are making gestures or remarks that can be CONSIDERED racist.
When your that much in the public eye your intentions don't really matter, the media is so hungry for drama that huge stories can be made out of tiny stupid actions.
So while in some way I agree with you, the reality is that Blizzard must protect its brand, it also looks really shitty for E-sports in general if they are loads of racism/sexism stories flying around, even if the truth behind them is more complex than the headline implies.
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u/ituralde_ Apr 05 '18
I don't even care what Blizzard's reaction is on this front. We as the community here happen to have power because of how close the players are to the fans. /r/cow isn't that huge of a community and people notice this stuff.
We won't control the media, we won't control organization level decisions. What we can control is how we as a community respond to this and that's the action I want to call for - let's encourage players to learn from their mistakes and, hopefully, through them, encourage their fans to be decent to each other.
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u/CobaKid Apr 05 '18
Important to note that the reason there are so many racist and racially insensitive comments on the internet is b/c it fosters toxicity in general b/c on anonymity and to try and be edgy and funny and that is one of its forms. Obviously, doesn't make it ok and as a black person I notice when it happens (one of the worst examples on twitch is chat spamming TriHard during the yu gi oh stream whenever there was a monkey on screen) but it still needs to be called out when it happens. irl the same people wouldnt dare act this way for the most part (I've only had one experience with someone using the N word in an intentionally offensive way) so basically XQC made and honest mistake b/c he was unaware of the situation and Eqo was being a racially insensitive idiot but that doesn't mean he hate any minority.
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u/ituralde_ Apr 05 '18
Yeah. The online gaming community in general has allowed this to fester and only recently, with systems to ban on the basis of toxicity, the introduction of esports, and the connections with more forms of social media, have we really begun to turn against that kind of behavior.
I want to make sure that we as a community tackle it in a level-headed way like this and don't simply divide ourselves into different camps the way the rest of the country has.
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u/13Witnesses Apr 05 '18
I don't know much about xQc but his fan base seems to be primarily teenage boys. In fact most of twitch chat and the community is probably middle school - university age (12-22) boys. Arguably the most insensitivity and immature demographic. They will literally act out this way because someone says they are hurt by it or others are saying to stop.
Source: anecdotal life experience as a male.
I think streamers are getting to the point where they are practically celebrity status and they need to realize their actions will have a wide ripple effect, especially with the younger viewers.
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Apr 05 '18
"Racial insensitivity is saying something about a group that is offensive."
What?
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u/ituralde_ Apr 05 '18
I tried to edit to clarify. The distinction I was trying to make was between making character judgements vs judging actions.
If someone has flawed actions, that shit is correctable.
If someone has flawed character, they are a lost cause.
Where possible, we should (after punishing the breach of conduct) seek to correct the actions of these people who are becoming role models for younger people.
I tried to use simple language, but I'm shit at this.
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Apr 05 '18
I would compare the EQO eye thing and saying the N word with an "A" at the end being similar in the fact that kids could be oblivious on the insensitive/harmful impact it might cause. Both asian/black people I know would tell me that is based on context, and EQO wasn't doing it with discriminating intent. Him not knowing is fuckin stupid regardless. Now the question is: whats more important, the actual action or the intent?
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u/ituralde_ Apr 05 '18
Why does there need to be a "More"? Let's just not tread these lines and see how close we can go to the fire. Give the punishment for the action, but also give the guy a path to redemption too. That's all I'm trying to say with this.
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u/call_me_R3MiiX Apr 06 '18
I read this as “racism vs rascal insensitivity”...as you could imagine, I was very confused for the first paragraph and a half
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Apr 06 '18
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u/ituralde_ Apr 06 '18
Largely reactions to the EQO thing as that went on.
He went on stream doing a thing where he pulled his eyes to look slanty when talking to a korean fan.
People naturally got offended by this.
EQO tried to backpedal. People got more upset.
Fusion stepped in, put out a statement and put out a punsihment alongside blizzard. This looked to be starting a shitstorm along the same lines as XQC so I wanted to start a conversation in the hopes of not this being just the same shit that's going on in politics.
Yeah I don't know what I was thinking, either.
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u/DrCasual95 Apr 06 '18
200 years later and we still didnt learn jackshit.
just nuke this planet already
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u/bohplayer Apr 06 '18
Overwatch league actively promoted the only remotely racist act that I have seen from any Overwatch player so far, the recreation of the "Ugandan Knuckles" meme that some team made in voice comms and was shown by OWL as the comms highlight for that match. Regardless of how the meme originated, the only reason why it gained so much popularity is because it mocks Africans. Surely OWL would have realized that if it had any significant Ugandan viewers or investors.
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u/ItsSupercar Apr 05 '18
Here's the problem I see: people imagine a firm line between "racist" vs "not racist", and then draw that line way out at extreme behaviour. We've mythologized racism to the point where we don't recognize its everyday forms. And so because we've narrowed the word's definition in this way, the accusation of racism-- which we believe only applies to the most severe behaviour-- becomes more of a social faux pas than racism itself. "How dare you call this person a racist? He's not even burning any crosses!"
But racism isn't always manifestos and slurs and overt attacks. Racism can be little everyday bullshit too. Racism can be rude treatment and dumb jokes. That shouldn't be taken to mean a joke is on par with a lynching, or even remotely close; it just means that racism is a broad concept encompassing actions large and small, and that on the whole it's still common as dirt.