r/Competitiveoverwatch Apr 05 '18

Discussion Racism vs Racial Insensitivity in Esports

[EDIT 2] adding more explicit commentary because reading comprehension is hard.

The esports community has failed at this distinction and it has caused a lot of drama and consternation.

Racism is believing awful things about some group. [EDIT] Think of this as a measure of Character.

Racial insensitivity is saying something about a group that is offensive. [EDIT] Think of this as characterizing someones actions. You could also call this "racist actions", describing the actions a person took. I chose the phrasing to make a distinction between actions and character, not to pretend that this made the actions not racist.

[EDIT 2] The phrasing doesn't matter here and it's a shame I can't edit the title because people are caught up on this. The important distinction (again) is character judgement vs actions. Neither racist actions no racist character are something the community should tolerate. The distinction only matters in that someone who does not want to be known as racist will be willing to reform their racist or otherwise offensive behaviors when given the opportunity. That's why it's important to remember that, when it comes to Actions and Character:

These are not the same thing.

Both are incredibly important. Impact is more important than intent; it's important to be cognizant of how your actions are interpreted by the world around you. [EDIT 2] This means that being racially sensitive is a terrible thing and merits the punishments that have been getting given out.

That said, it's similarly inappropriate to always assume racism in the presence of racial insensitivity. [EDIT 2] This means that not everyone who says something awful and punishment-worth is doing so out of outright racism. Young, dumb kids say and do dumb shit for reasons above and beyond being a terrible person.

The important behavior we want to teach to players and fans is that sensitivity matters, and we undermine that by accusing everyone who makes a mistake on the sensitivity front of being immediately racist/homophobic/etc.

Racial and other insensitivity is and should continue to be punished by the Overwatch league and its constituent teams. The important result of this should be that lessons are learned, not that players are crucified.

Take a look at EQO's case - he made a mistake. For a lot of us, it's an obvious mistake but clearly not one he thought of. Both he and the Philadelphia Fusion made sincere responses to the mistake. This is a perfect example of how this shit should be handled. We as a community should also treat it as such, and while we should be harsh on players who do make these mistakes, we should also encourage these young people from various backgrounds to learn from such mistakes. Let them be examples to their fans, don't bury them in negativity.

This is really important.

[EDIT 2] For clarity since this has been all over the comments, EQO not only fucked up bigtime through his actions, he made it worse by trying to play coverup. The good response absolutely was at the behest of some authority figure in the Fusion, and that's exactly what we should expect of organizations in the league. We, as a community, should take a trust-but-verify approach - give the Fusion credit for their swift response and give EQO the benefit of the doubt that this was a lapse of judgement, but also keep an eye out that the final statement was sincere.

Take a look at XQC for another example.

In full disclosure, I don't like XQC. I don't like the majority of his fans. I'm probably naturally biased against him.

However, I don't think he's a racist, and I sympathize with the guy who is broken over being saddled with this label by the powers that be.

He made a mistake. Sure, he hasn't really shown that he understands this but at the same time, how the heck could he? He's being told he's racist which isn't something he's capable of identifying with. He doesn't share the beliefs he's being accused of, so how could he get anything from this?

He's not a racist. He made a huge fuckup and has been hounded by the community as if he's evil. He's not evil, he fucked up. He displayed poor judgement, that doesn't make him a bad person - it makes him human.

[EDIT 2] I thought this was clear from context but the important distinction is that he doesn't see him as a racist and continuing to accuse him of that worldview doesn't help anything. His actions WERE racist. You could say he was "acting racist" or "being racist" in reference to his actions if that terminology fits it better. Does he have a racist worldview? Only insofar as he clearly doesn't understand why it's important to be sensitive about how you show up publicly.

XQC isn't the first and EQO won't be the last to make these mistakes. So let's learn a lesson as a community and give these players the window to improve themselves and how they show up in public. Condemn the action, not the person - give them the window to reform. Let them acknowledge the difference between intent vs impact and use these examples to teach the community about why this matters.

Demonizing the people only undermines the opportunity for a lesson to be learned by the players and the community as a whole.

Let's maintain our standards, but enable our players to rise above careless behavior to those standards. Let's not saddle them eternally with the baggage of a mistake made of youth, ignorance, community-driven habit, and/or carelessness. Let's not make accusations of a person's character when they yet have the opportunity to grow from a poor choice.

[EDIT] This has gotten way more traction than I ever thought it would, so I'd like to clarify a few things in simple terms.

  1. The punishments were good and appropriate. I think the first reaction to negative behavior would be to stop it and punish. Only after should we look at how to rehabilitate bad behavior.

  2. The distinction I'm trying to draw here is the difference between Actions and Character. I think a redeemable Character can perform reprehensible actions. In the case someone does something reprehensible, we shouldn't shut the door on them redeeming themselves if they choose to accept responsibility and reform. That's really all I'm trying to say.

1.1k Upvotes

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993

u/mortigan Apr 05 '18

Aw, I salute your futile effort to bring common sense to race discussions in 2018.

162

u/clickrush Apr 05 '18

If you read throught the comments it seems most people have balanced/moderate opinions on the matter.

This discussion has become too focussed on the extremes in media, while most people's feelings and opinions are often much more complex.

33

u/skordge What Would Bumper Do? — Apr 05 '18

People who care enough to read into posts such as yours, comment on them properly, and in general try to research the situations they are forming their opinions on, unsurprisingly tend to have nuanced and grounded opinions on things. They are not the problem. People who just read "xQc is racist" and just take that at face value or disagree without reading further because of their preconceptions are the problem.

28

u/Gangster301 Apr 05 '18

Literally every single time I've voiced this opinion I've been downvoted to hell.

27

u/lavandris 2781 PC — Apr 05 '18

But reducing complex issues to a binary makes my externalized self-loathing so much easier to justify!

5

u/dannycake Apr 05 '18

This situation very true.

Most of my friends are pretty liberal bit dislike a lot of media focused liberal bs. Likewise when people find out that I'm conservative they're pretty surprised that I actually have a moral compass. The Truth of the matter is most people have a decently nuanced opinion and we go for the throat at the tail 5% ends of the spectrum.

We have lost the ability to even talk in the same platforms and don't even know how to relate to each other in conversations these days. These conversations have gotten so out of control lately that people have gotten so unrelatable with each other when it's the opposite. I think that's the goal and we need to fight back and realize that 90% of everyone around us wants a better place around us for everyone.

1

u/clickrush Apr 05 '18

We have lost the ability to even talk in the same platforms and don't even know how to relate to each other in conversations these days.

I think that is because people give too much weight on social media and political comedy instead of interacting with eachother. Thus creating bubbles of opinion that aren't based on the complexitiy of the issues but on a dumbed down us vs. them mentaility. I always find it interesting to have discussions with people who have contrary opinions because most of the time I can learn something and sharpen my worldview. I don't think this has anything to do with being liberal or conservative or w/e. It's just common sense and decency.

2

u/dannycake Apr 05 '18

Agreed. The trouble is, you have to talk to real life people. Often when you do, people are surprisingly rather reasonable.

1

u/Vladimir_Pooptin Apr 05 '18

"OVERWATCH PRO BANNED FOR RACIST EMOTE" Gets more clicks

-1

u/Tyhgujgt Apr 05 '18

not sorting by controversial in thread about racism

Filthy casuls

68

u/CyborgJunkie Apr 05 '18 edited Apr 05 '18

The worst thing about this debate is people assuming everyone have the same fundamental history to judge these matters. If everyone should be aware of all racially insensitive gestures/actions all across the globe, then you should also know they aren't as universal as you might think.

Edit: Interesting view on how Chinese see blackface: https://youtu.be/YsJWGTmJU94

27

u/skordge What Would Bumper Do? — Apr 05 '18

This is exactly right. There is no way you can be aware of every way you can be racist or insensitive in every culture of the world. Hell, it is frankly quite naive and even itself insensitive for some Americans to think that their cultural norms to automatically apply to every culture.

And to keep ranting on the subject, I find it quite hypocritical of the West to be so sensitive about racism issues on black people, Latinos and Asians, while being really insensitive towards e.g. any Slavic culture and Eastern Europe in general. I'm Russian, and I do get a bit annoyed about the vast majority of Western media depictions of my culture to be so stereotypical we even have a special word in Russian to describe this phenomenon. We are constantly depicted as crooks and drunkards in mainstream Western media, because we somehow are acceptable targets for xenophobia. Full disclosure: I don't mind too much personally, it's honestly so grotesque it's perceived as satire. Hell, when e.g. TviQ goes full cheeki-breeki Slavic tracksuit squat hard-bass cyka blyat rush B - it's obviously all in good fun, because it's all jokes and memes. But WTF with the double standards on this, dudes?

3

u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

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1

u/skordge What Would Bumper Do? — Apr 05 '18

I'm not an expert either, but I think you're right. That's probably the reason you can find blackface in Asia or tanning salon ads with black people in Russia - just not a very common ethnic group over here.

-1

u/sukabot Apr 05 '18

cyka

сука is not the same thing as "cyka". Write "suka" instead next time :)

1

u/skordge What Would Bumper Do? — Apr 05 '18

Stop appropriating my culture, бля! =)

3

u/Theosiel Apr 05 '18

I'm not your бля, товарищ.

3

u/skordge What Would Bumper Do? — Apr 05 '18

I'm not your товарищ, приятель.

0

u/Scoobydewdoo Apr 05 '18

Hell, it is frankly quite naive and even itself insensitive for some Americans to think that their cultural norms to automatically apply to every culture

While I sympathize with what you are saying, ignorance is not a crime and is not something that anyone should be offended by. I also find it hilarious that you complain about Russians being stereotyped in Western media while simultaneously stereotyping Americans as ignorant and naive.

4

u/skordge What Would Bumper Do? — Apr 05 '18

If you re-read my message, you might notice I specifically said some Americans.

3

u/ElementOfConfusion Apr 06 '18

I'm Irish, and I personally hate how Americans seem to assume their identity politics, culture and racism are relevant and standard everywhere. Most of it doesn't even apply in Europe, let alone the rest of the world.

3

u/[deleted] Apr 07 '18

^ This can't even be stressed enough.

Fanart can easily lead to a shitstorm over "whitewashing" whereas "blackwashing" would be perfectly acceptable and even empowering. Why the double standards? I'm assuming there is a lot more history behind whitewashing in the US but why do people assume the American standards apply to every person on the internet?

5

u/Etherlite Apr 05 '18

How else do you expect a mostly Chinese population to portray Africans? It's more about how you use the prop and the ideas you're presenting that might make something racist or in ill taste.

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u/scarydrew Start 1902 Current 2526 — Apr 05 '18 edited Apr 05 '18

It's not that hard to not be offensive. That is a weak ass pathetic excuse.

Edit: To the downvoters - LOL like this sub is the bastion of racial awareness.

14

u/klasbo Apr 05 '18

Reducing "offensive" to something that can be globally agreed upon is ignorant at best, and some kind of modern imperialist at worst. Cultural heritage is a complicated thing.

0

u/scarydrew Start 1902 Current 2526 — Apr 05 '18

I never said that. I just meant it's not hard to not make excuses, to apologize when you are offensive, to reflect, to accept that if you were offensive and did apologize and did reflect that might not be good enough, and to not get pissed at the offended party when they don't acquiesce to your apology.

6

u/klasbo Apr 05 '18

Well then I (and probably others) misunderstood your point.

So to add to the point you were trying to make: In my opinion, offense is taken, not given. Sometimes apologizing is the right thing to do, and sometimes people are just easily offended. And sometimes offending people is intentional too!

Not being offensive in that regard is "not hard" - you just have to keep your mouth shut. But we are social creatures, and being social with un-shut mouths in a way that is globally "inoffensive" is coming back to the thing I was disagreeing with in the first place - you can't just ignore or impose some "standard" cultural context when judging "offense". One man's terrorist is an other mans unfuckable lard-arse and all that.

1

u/scarydrew Start 1902 Current 2526 — Apr 05 '18

I completely disagree with your premise that offense is taken. Don't know what else to say about it, agree to disagree at this point.

12

u/lavandris 2781 PC — Apr 05 '18

Right, once you know what counts as offensive. In the linked video there's a woman who changes her mind on the blackface issue as she sits there and thinks about it. Blackface is still an issue in the Netherlands, too. It's easy to say, "they should know better," but if no one is asking the question and it's not part of the collective cultural conscious, then how? Maybe EQO actually should have known that "Asian eyes" is offensive based on his culture and the norms he's been exposed to; he's the only one who can answer that. But he apologized and learned his lesson. This post isn't excusing racial insensitivity outright, just that in some cases it's going to happen as an individual learns about other cultures, and those of us who do know better should recognize that.

1

u/scarydrew Start 1902 Current 2526 — Apr 05 '18

All it takes is reflection, and accepting that reflecting and apologizing if you are offensive might not make someone suddenly forgive you, and that is okay for them to do.

1

u/WikiTextBot Apr 05 '18

Zwarte Piet

Zwarte Piet (pronounced [ˈzʋɑrtə ˈpit]; English: Black Pete or Black Peter, Luxembourgish: Schwaarze Péiter, Indonesian: Pit Hitam) is the companion of Saint Nicholas (Dutch: Sinterklaas, Luxembourgish: Kleeschen, Indonesian: Sinterklas) in the folklore of the Low Countries. The character first appeared in an 1850 book by Amsterdam schoolteacher Jan Schenkman. Traditionally, Zwarte Piet is said to be black because he is a Moor from Spain. Those portraying Zwarte Piet typically put on blackface make-up and colourful Renaissance attire, in addition to curly wigs, red lipstick, and earrings.


[ PM | Exclude me | Exclude from subreddit | FAQ / Information | Source ] Downvote to remove | v0.28

1

u/overpoweredginger Apr 05 '18

ybe EQO actually should have known that "Asian eyes" is offensive based on his culture and the norms he's been exposed to; he's the only one who can answer that.

Remember that this kid is born in Columbia and raised in Israel, so to say that he's an outsider to West Coast US liberal values is probably an understatement. Plus, you know, he's a kid.

8

u/epharian Apr 05 '18

Hmm...

One might think that, but it's amazingly simple to offend if someone wants to be offended or you aren't familiar with another culture.

Also, you swear in a post about how easy it is to avoid offense, but I know quite a few people that would take offense to your language. It's not the same as racism, and I'm not implying it is, but if someone wants a reason to be offended, then nothing you do to avoid it is going to stop them, no matter inoffensive you try to be.

2

u/scarydrew Start 1902 Current 2526 — Apr 05 '18 edited Apr 05 '18

Another cop out. The point is that it is not about never being offensive to someone, it's about not being that difficult to correct the situation by simply being a decent person and not making excuses. If someone is offended by any of my comments, they can let me know, even angrily as would be expected, and I will reflect on that and make an effort to make ammends. But let me be clear, there is a difference between an action and a reaction. If I am offending someone that has demonstrated they are offensive themselves, that is not the same.

it's amazingly simple to offend if someone wants to be offended or you aren't familiar with another culture

This is also a complete strawman argument, this does not actually exist on any meaningful scale. You can find someone who will be offended by anything, sure, but they are an insignificant number.

2

u/shiftz7 Apr 05 '18

I find your use of the term 'strawman argument' extremely offensive.

As someone who identifies as a straw man myself the term is used to symbolize my non-existence by comparing me to an imaginary argument.

I hope you are a "decent person" and won't "make excuses" for your offensive comments. Please "reflect on that and make an effort to make ammends".

Sincerely,

Mr Strawman McStrawface

6

u/scarydrew Start 1902 Current 2526 — Apr 05 '18

Exactly.

-1

u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

[deleted]

7

u/ParamediK EU — Apr 05 '18

Except the facial structures are vastly different.

-11

u/Moesugi Tisumi best gril — Apr 05 '18

Chinese

*majority of Asian/Eastern countries

ftfy

15

u/Ranwulf Apr 05 '18

*majority of Asian/Eastern countries

I've seen you doing that in another post, but please stop. Throwing together dozens of asian countries in the same manner is basically what this post asks people not to do.

-2

u/Moesugi Tisumi best gril — Apr 06 '18

've seen you doing that in another post, but please stop. Throwing together dozens of asian countries in the same manner is basically what this post asks people not to do.

As an Asian myself when it comes to black face, a lot of Asian countries (especially Eastern Asian because of how little experience they had with the West in history) hold the same view like those in Chinese.

It's not even grouping together, it's just fact.

35

u/kainhighwind Apr 05 '18

YES. Let's focus on the real issue here–people being called racists.

I'm sure we'll get around putting our energy and effort into fighting actual racism in gaming and eSports sometime soon! 🙄

3

u/ReddishBlack Apr 06 '18

People don't take disparaging others as racists with enough seriousness

-10

u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

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34

u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

[deleted]

0

u/nath999 Apr 05 '18

Can’t believe you are getting downvoted.

-4

u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

America ruins everything

2

u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

It's definitively step into the right direction (compared to what most of the people here write about those fine cases), but it's still far from being common sense.

1

u/dannycake Apr 05 '18

I said the same thing with eqo and got downvoted multiple times. Said that the eye thing was clearly offensive but not racist. I tried to explain the difference but the downvote button was too pretty. Op has put the point pretty well here and I'm glad it's getting attention though.

Reddit is a fickle monster.

-8

u/DeptOfTruthiness Apr 05 '18

hahaha yeah, they just want to shut up anyone not obeying their idiotic political correctness speech codes. The trigglypuffs have always wanted to make thought a crime, we're seeing that work in progress

-2

u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

We can't have this?! Should I call him a neonazi? /s