r/Competitiveoverwatch Apr 05 '18

Discussion Racism vs Racial Insensitivity in Esports

[EDIT 2] adding more explicit commentary because reading comprehension is hard.

The esports community has failed at this distinction and it has caused a lot of drama and consternation.

Racism is believing awful things about some group. [EDIT] Think of this as a measure of Character.

Racial insensitivity is saying something about a group that is offensive. [EDIT] Think of this as characterizing someones actions. You could also call this "racist actions", describing the actions a person took. I chose the phrasing to make a distinction between actions and character, not to pretend that this made the actions not racist.

[EDIT 2] The phrasing doesn't matter here and it's a shame I can't edit the title because people are caught up on this. The important distinction (again) is character judgement vs actions. Neither racist actions no racist character are something the community should tolerate. The distinction only matters in that someone who does not want to be known as racist will be willing to reform their racist or otherwise offensive behaviors when given the opportunity. That's why it's important to remember that, when it comes to Actions and Character:

These are not the same thing.

Both are incredibly important. Impact is more important than intent; it's important to be cognizant of how your actions are interpreted by the world around you. [EDIT 2] This means that being racially sensitive is a terrible thing and merits the punishments that have been getting given out.

That said, it's similarly inappropriate to always assume racism in the presence of racial insensitivity. [EDIT 2] This means that not everyone who says something awful and punishment-worth is doing so out of outright racism. Young, dumb kids say and do dumb shit for reasons above and beyond being a terrible person.

The important behavior we want to teach to players and fans is that sensitivity matters, and we undermine that by accusing everyone who makes a mistake on the sensitivity front of being immediately racist/homophobic/etc.

Racial and other insensitivity is and should continue to be punished by the Overwatch league and its constituent teams. The important result of this should be that lessons are learned, not that players are crucified.

Take a look at EQO's case - he made a mistake. For a lot of us, it's an obvious mistake but clearly not one he thought of. Both he and the Philadelphia Fusion made sincere responses to the mistake. This is a perfect example of how this shit should be handled. We as a community should also treat it as such, and while we should be harsh on players who do make these mistakes, we should also encourage these young people from various backgrounds to learn from such mistakes. Let them be examples to their fans, don't bury them in negativity.

This is really important.

[EDIT 2] For clarity since this has been all over the comments, EQO not only fucked up bigtime through his actions, he made it worse by trying to play coverup. The good response absolutely was at the behest of some authority figure in the Fusion, and that's exactly what we should expect of organizations in the league. We, as a community, should take a trust-but-verify approach - give the Fusion credit for their swift response and give EQO the benefit of the doubt that this was a lapse of judgement, but also keep an eye out that the final statement was sincere.

Take a look at XQC for another example.

In full disclosure, I don't like XQC. I don't like the majority of his fans. I'm probably naturally biased against him.

However, I don't think he's a racist, and I sympathize with the guy who is broken over being saddled with this label by the powers that be.

He made a mistake. Sure, he hasn't really shown that he understands this but at the same time, how the heck could he? He's being told he's racist which isn't something he's capable of identifying with. He doesn't share the beliefs he's being accused of, so how could he get anything from this?

He's not a racist. He made a huge fuckup and has been hounded by the community as if he's evil. He's not evil, he fucked up. He displayed poor judgement, that doesn't make him a bad person - it makes him human.

[EDIT 2] I thought this was clear from context but the important distinction is that he doesn't see him as a racist and continuing to accuse him of that worldview doesn't help anything. His actions WERE racist. You could say he was "acting racist" or "being racist" in reference to his actions if that terminology fits it better. Does he have a racist worldview? Only insofar as he clearly doesn't understand why it's important to be sensitive about how you show up publicly.

XQC isn't the first and EQO won't be the last to make these mistakes. So let's learn a lesson as a community and give these players the window to improve themselves and how they show up in public. Condemn the action, not the person - give them the window to reform. Let them acknowledge the difference between intent vs impact and use these examples to teach the community about why this matters.

Demonizing the people only undermines the opportunity for a lesson to be learned by the players and the community as a whole.

Let's maintain our standards, but enable our players to rise above careless behavior to those standards. Let's not saddle them eternally with the baggage of a mistake made of youth, ignorance, community-driven habit, and/or carelessness. Let's not make accusations of a person's character when they yet have the opportunity to grow from a poor choice.

[EDIT] This has gotten way more traction than I ever thought it would, so I'd like to clarify a few things in simple terms.

  1. The punishments were good and appropriate. I think the first reaction to negative behavior would be to stop it and punish. Only after should we look at how to rehabilitate bad behavior.

  2. The distinction I'm trying to draw here is the difference between Actions and Character. I think a redeemable Character can perform reprehensible actions. In the case someone does something reprehensible, we shouldn't shut the door on them redeeming themselves if they choose to accept responsibility and reform. That's really all I'm trying to say.

1.1k Upvotes

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85

u/ImReallyGrey Apr 05 '18

Just to be clear, EQO and the org made genuine apologies after EQO trying to delete the evidence and made a shitty justification tweet that angled what he did as somehow being a compliment.

-5

u/Brystvorter Secret Fuel Fan — Apr 05 '18

I think EQO genuinely thought he was complimenting the Koreans by saying that he wished he was like them, this whole thing came from some massive ignorance on the part of EQO but now he definitely gets that it was bad, even though he didnt at first (he thought people were misinterpreting his 'compliment' at first but now he knows how bad it was)

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u/[deleted] Apr 06 '18 edited Jan 28 '21

[deleted]

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u/TychosNose flankyatta — Apr 06 '18

Well, he's not native to California, is he?

1

u/Brystvorter Secret Fuel Fan — Apr 06 '18

So? EQO has lived in Colombia and Israel and likely never interacted closely with people of Asian descent before OWL. You think he would've done this knowing that it's offensive? I don't buy that he has Asian teammates that he lives with, he would have to be an idiot or ignorant to use the slant eyes. I think it is more plausible that he was ignorant.

-15

u/ituralde_ Apr 05 '18

Put yourself in his shoes. If he doesn't appreciate how big of a deal this is - and it's clear both he and even a lot of the people in this thread did not - then of course he's going to go on the defensive.

If he's honestly reformed, we can judge him by his future behavior. Let's not crucify him as a racist until we have reason to believe his most recent statement was not in earnest and the lesson was not taken to heart.

If he's actually racist and not just making a massive fuckup (he's incredibly young and from a different background than you or I), it will become clear very quickly.

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u/ImReallyGrey Apr 05 '18

I'm not saying to crucify him or indicting him as a person, I'm saying that your description of his apology wasn't exactly true. He didn't immediately feel sorry for what he did, he tried to cover it up and justify it. My thoughts on the situation aside, that is what happened.

-5

u/ituralde_ Apr 05 '18

I am deliberately trying to be generous again because he's a really young kid and I've never walked a year in his shoes. I was raised in an environment where sensitivity and decency was an enforced expectation from a young age, but I know nothing about him and the environment he was in before he was suddenly thrust into international visibility.

My read is he got defensive, tried to rationalize, and only later probably had someone from the Philly org sit his ass down and teach him the gravity of his actions.

What I want from everyone is to take him at face value - the face value of that letter he put out. Yeah, it's absolutely a crafted statement, but that's totally fine if he goes on to live by the words he put into it. I want him to be judged by how well he lives by his most recent statement and his determination to be more sensitive in the future and share his lesson.

In other words, his previous actions were not OK. His immediate responses were not OK. However, he's changed course in his actions, so we should give him the chance to reform on that front. That doesn't excuse his prior action - that's why he should still be punished - but we should carry forward an expectation both that he must reform but also that he's capable of it.

That's really what I'm trying to communicate by all this. I'm not a brilliant writer, so I apologize if what I'm trying to say isn't very clear.

10

u/involving Apr 05 '18

I don’t think the person replying to you is disagreeing with what you’re saying. We can all be generous in our interpretation, like you’ve been doing and encouraging everyone to do. But the person above you was trying to state what actually happened (not as a matter of interpretation), presumably because they felt it was glossed over in your post.

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u/ituralde_ Apr 05 '18

Yeah, that (glossing over that bit) seems to be something that other people observed and wasn't my intention - I was trying to focus the attention on the end net result on how things were eventually handled. In my mind, the initial reaction by EQO was part of his initial fuckup.

-12

u/Voidward Apr 05 '18

If someone called me Asian-like I would perceive it as a compliment. I remember someone asked sinatraa how good he is thinks he is, and he said he thought he was as good as the Koreans. Was that an insult in disguise? Asian = bad right?

I really can't comprehend how there are so many fragile people out there that can be absolutely destroyed by a person saying the wrong word or someone touching their face wrong or seeing the wrong emoji at the wrong time. I pine for you all. I don't know how any of you can get through the day without having a mental breakdown.

12

u/-Tsun4mi Apr 05 '18

The thing is that this is an incredibly nuanced issue and the fact that you think people are "fragile" and that people "can be absolutely destroyed by a person saying the wrong word" shows that you lack a fundamental understanding of the issue and it's history. It's also quite obvious that you're equally as fragile as you propose all these people are because here you are bitching about it on an anonymous Internet forum. Anyone who has an opinion that differs from you is instantly labelled a "snowflake". You really have no desire to better understand the issue. You just want to feel a certain way about the issue and complain about it because "muh feelings".

-7

u/Voidward Apr 05 '18

That whole paragraph was handwaving in an attempt to dismiss my comment while failing to add anything to the conversation. Better luck next time.

Yes, I am offended that there's a mob out there trying to restrict what others can say and do based on their feelings, and they'll demand punishment of people because their feelings are hurt.

My feelings are severely hurt by your actions. Can someone please step in and fine this man some money and give him an internet timeout? He did something I find mildly uncomfortable, I demand justice. This culture is OK now it seems, so I really need punishment to be doled out in what makes me feel icky now.

5

u/-Tsun4mi Apr 05 '18

Your original comment added nothing to the conversation in the first place. As I said, you lack a fundamental understanding of the issue and it's history. Referring to people of Asian origin or descent as "slant-eyed" and making that gesture is rooted in racism. The term and gesture date back at least 100 years and has historically been used in a racist way. That's not to say that EQO performing that gesture makes him "a racist", but it doesn't change the fact that the action in itself is "racist". Just like a white person saying the N-word while singing along to a rap song doesn't make them "a racist", the word in itself is still historically rooted in racism and is a racist term. You can't just divorce a word or gesture from it's historical meaning because you don't feel like it should be offensive anymore.

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u/ImReallyGrey Apr 05 '18

Ok? Is what I said wrong?

-7

u/Voidward Apr 05 '18

Yes, the somehow being a compliment part. You're implying it was intended as an insult.

Prove to me he has an intent to offend.

9

u/ImReallyGrey Apr 05 '18

Bro I can already tell that anyone who tells you why making fun of a race is an insulting and offensive thing to do will be an sjw fragile snowflake to you. He did a shitty thing that he should know is incredibly offensive. I don't want to explain to anyone why racially targeted mockery is a bad thing that should be discouraged.

-1

u/Voidward Apr 05 '18

For fuck's sake.

I don't want to explain to anyone why racially targeted mockery is a bad thing that should be discouraged.

Prove it. Prove he was targeting Asians with the intent to mock them. If you can prove he did this in an attempt to intentionally disparage a large group of people, I will agree with you that he deserves the punishment.

My claim is he had no such intentions, that you subjectively assert that someone could have mistaken what he was doing as that, and because it is plausible that someone else could have mistaken his actions as that due to a deficit in their own mental faculties, this kid is being punished. Essentially, because someone else cannot grasp context, this kid should lose money.

Please prove me wrong.

7

u/ImReallyGrey Apr 05 '18

The video proof oh him mocking koreans by mimicking a racial feature of theirs isn't enough? C'mon dude what are you even talking about

0

u/Voidward Apr 05 '18

How is imitation mocking? Do you not understand the definition of the word?

mock·ing
adjective
making fun of someone or something in a cruel way; derisive.

Show me the cruelty, contempt or ridicule. If I imitate the way EQO plays am I mocking him?

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery that mediocrity can pay to greatness.

I take it Oscar Wilde is just some retard with no clue then?

5

u/ImReallyGrey Apr 05 '18

lmao are you joking? Do you feel the same way about blackface?

2

u/Voidward Apr 05 '18

I don't think Robert Downey JR was racist because of his role in Tropic Thunder. Perhaps some people found it racially insensitive, while others found it hilarious and inoffensive. He wasn't ridiculing black people with his performance, so I take no issue with it.

It kind of depends on context. Have you heard of context? It's kind of important. Blackface is certainly bad if your intent is to make black people look like otherworldly animals explicitly distinct from whites.

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