r/Competitiveoverwatch Apr 05 '18

Discussion Racism vs Racial Insensitivity in Esports

[EDIT 2] adding more explicit commentary because reading comprehension is hard.

The esports community has failed at this distinction and it has caused a lot of drama and consternation.

Racism is believing awful things about some group. [EDIT] Think of this as a measure of Character.

Racial insensitivity is saying something about a group that is offensive. [EDIT] Think of this as characterizing someones actions. You could also call this "racist actions", describing the actions a person took. I chose the phrasing to make a distinction between actions and character, not to pretend that this made the actions not racist.

[EDIT 2] The phrasing doesn't matter here and it's a shame I can't edit the title because people are caught up on this. The important distinction (again) is character judgement vs actions. Neither racist actions no racist character are something the community should tolerate. The distinction only matters in that someone who does not want to be known as racist will be willing to reform their racist or otherwise offensive behaviors when given the opportunity. That's why it's important to remember that, when it comes to Actions and Character:

These are not the same thing.

Both are incredibly important. Impact is more important than intent; it's important to be cognizant of how your actions are interpreted by the world around you. [EDIT 2] This means that being racially sensitive is a terrible thing and merits the punishments that have been getting given out.

That said, it's similarly inappropriate to always assume racism in the presence of racial insensitivity. [EDIT 2] This means that not everyone who says something awful and punishment-worth is doing so out of outright racism. Young, dumb kids say and do dumb shit for reasons above and beyond being a terrible person.

The important behavior we want to teach to players and fans is that sensitivity matters, and we undermine that by accusing everyone who makes a mistake on the sensitivity front of being immediately racist/homophobic/etc.

Racial and other insensitivity is and should continue to be punished by the Overwatch league and its constituent teams. The important result of this should be that lessons are learned, not that players are crucified.

Take a look at EQO's case - he made a mistake. For a lot of us, it's an obvious mistake but clearly not one he thought of. Both he and the Philadelphia Fusion made sincere responses to the mistake. This is a perfect example of how this shit should be handled. We as a community should also treat it as such, and while we should be harsh on players who do make these mistakes, we should also encourage these young people from various backgrounds to learn from such mistakes. Let them be examples to their fans, don't bury them in negativity.

This is really important.

[EDIT 2] For clarity since this has been all over the comments, EQO not only fucked up bigtime through his actions, he made it worse by trying to play coverup. The good response absolutely was at the behest of some authority figure in the Fusion, and that's exactly what we should expect of organizations in the league. We, as a community, should take a trust-but-verify approach - give the Fusion credit for their swift response and give EQO the benefit of the doubt that this was a lapse of judgement, but also keep an eye out that the final statement was sincere.

Take a look at XQC for another example.

In full disclosure, I don't like XQC. I don't like the majority of his fans. I'm probably naturally biased against him.

However, I don't think he's a racist, and I sympathize with the guy who is broken over being saddled with this label by the powers that be.

He made a mistake. Sure, he hasn't really shown that he understands this but at the same time, how the heck could he? He's being told he's racist which isn't something he's capable of identifying with. He doesn't share the beliefs he's being accused of, so how could he get anything from this?

He's not a racist. He made a huge fuckup and has been hounded by the community as if he's evil. He's not evil, he fucked up. He displayed poor judgement, that doesn't make him a bad person - it makes him human.

[EDIT 2] I thought this was clear from context but the important distinction is that he doesn't see him as a racist and continuing to accuse him of that worldview doesn't help anything. His actions WERE racist. You could say he was "acting racist" or "being racist" in reference to his actions if that terminology fits it better. Does he have a racist worldview? Only insofar as he clearly doesn't understand why it's important to be sensitive about how you show up publicly.

XQC isn't the first and EQO won't be the last to make these mistakes. So let's learn a lesson as a community and give these players the window to improve themselves and how they show up in public. Condemn the action, not the person - give them the window to reform. Let them acknowledge the difference between intent vs impact and use these examples to teach the community about why this matters.

Demonizing the people only undermines the opportunity for a lesson to be learned by the players and the community as a whole.

Let's maintain our standards, but enable our players to rise above careless behavior to those standards. Let's not saddle them eternally with the baggage of a mistake made of youth, ignorance, community-driven habit, and/or carelessness. Let's not make accusations of a person's character when they yet have the opportunity to grow from a poor choice.

[EDIT] This has gotten way more traction than I ever thought it would, so I'd like to clarify a few things in simple terms.

  1. The punishments were good and appropriate. I think the first reaction to negative behavior would be to stop it and punish. Only after should we look at how to rehabilitate bad behavior.

  2. The distinction I'm trying to draw here is the difference between Actions and Character. I think a redeemable Character can perform reprehensible actions. In the case someone does something reprehensible, we shouldn't shut the door on them redeeming themselves if they choose to accept responsibility and reform. That's really all I'm trying to say.

1.1k Upvotes

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26

u/yungr33zy Apr 05 '18

I kind of half agree. Racism used to mean discrimination based on race, which none of these players is guilty of. Making jokes about a race is no different from making jokes about a person being fat - yeah it’s mean but it’s not racism.

As a black person when I see the black emotes whenever monkey is mentioned that grinds me up but it ain’t really RACISM. Racism is when your resume gets thrown in the trash because your name is ethnic. When service is denied to you, you are excluded from a membership, or you are disqualified for a loan because of the color of your skin. Shit like that.

But much in the same way that “literally” has come to mean “figuratively” in the dictionary because of colloquial use, the same thing has happened with the definition of racism. Nothing these players did was really racist, but with the new way the world works today, even insensitivity is a big red no-no.

So I can see why they were punished, but I’m not in the camp that thinks the punishments needed to be this harsh.

Believing horrible things about some group is prejudice, not racism. You can be prejudiced against any group- women, Mexicans, Black people, dog owners if you want.

40

u/Silverharp Apr 05 '18

"black emotes whenever monkey is mentioned that grinds me up but it ain’t really RACISM"

??????? How is that not racism?

-6

u/yungr33zy Apr 05 '18

Read the rest of my post where I answer that?

12

u/Silverharp Apr 05 '18

I'm not buying that crap. You don't have to be some hood wearing, cross burning guy in order to do/say something racist. What XQC did is racist. When twitch chat spams TriHard in chat whenever a black guy shows up, that's also racist. Call it what it is.

10

u/umecry Apr 05 '18

I genuinely find it hard to believe that people interpret what XQC did as racist. There's proof of him using the emote as just a salute way before that shit with Malik happened, and there's even a clip of Trihex saying that XQC went to him to ask if the emote was racist because he was worried it could be interpreted as that.

2

u/drugsrgay Apr 05 '18

I genuinely find it hard to believe that people interpret what XQC did as racist

Because there's also proof of qxc using the ever popular racist twich memes "yoink, mine now" "gimme gimme" to his chat so they spam TriHard after, yet he claimed he was ignorant about the emote being used in a racist way.

2

u/umecry Apr 05 '18

The fact that he went to Trihex, which is the person who literally is the emote before the whole controversy blew up to confirm with him shows to me personally there was no malicious intent.

-1

u/Auszi Apr 05 '18

xQc literally said he understands the Twitch cultural use of the emote, and that anyone else who does would know he didn't use it in the racist way that TriHard is usually used in.

0

u/drugsrgay Apr 05 '18

I get that he wasn't using it in that way this time but he quite literally has used this exact emote in racist ways both on his stream and in chat before.

xqcow: TriHard 7

xqcow: TriHard 7

xqcow: TriHard 7

xqcow: TriHard 7

xqcow: GANG GANG CHAT TriHard 7

xqcow: ?????????????

xqcow: cmonBruh cmonBruh cmonBruh

xqcow: THE WHAT NOW? cmonBruh

1

u/Auszi Apr 05 '18

I fail to see the racism here. Is he committing digital blackface?

1

u/yungr33zy Apr 05 '18

Like I said the definition of racist changed to what you describe.. but that’s not racism to me, that’s just being a jerk.

If there was a fat person on stage and people put whale emotes or something that’s similar it’s just being a jerk. But racism used to mean actual discrimination. Exclusion or targeting. I guess that’s just the definition I cling to.

What xqc did wasn’t racist at all because he used the emote in its original usage, that was coined by the black man who made the emote. He was at the wrong place at the wrong time.

1

u/IAmCyanimal Apr 05 '18

You want people to call it what you think it is. You don't display the slightest ability to understand your definition might be just that, yours.

I simply have to disagree that the TriHard emote from xQc was racist. Others see it differently, okay. The real issue is someone like you pretending there's no nuance to the topic.

25

u/elrayo Apr 05 '18

as a black guy I disagree lmao.

Your definition of racism is very narrow, and doesnt encompass the more subtle and systematic issues were facing today. If theres a joke comparing blacks to monkeys that’s racist.

-4

u/yungr33zy Apr 05 '18

That’s dodgy cause monkey was a derogatory term for black people during a fucked up time for us but it’s just that. Derogatory.

Systematic issues is what racism is, that’s what I’m getting at. Profiling, exclusion etc is real racism. A person who calls us monkeys is more likely than not prejudiced and would do some racist shit given the chance, but that right there is not racism.

Saying bitch doesn’t make u misogynistic for example, but saying no women can be on my team is misogynistic.

9

u/NinjaRedditorAtWork Apr 05 '18

It's systemic racism though. If someone under the guise of anonymity is making racist remarks you really think they don't actually think that on some personal level? Somewhere down that line of thinking the joke stops and prejudice starts. I don't make racial jokes about people I don't know because while it may be a 'joke' at some point for some people it isn't... and I don't want to reinforce that mentality. Why it is somehow okay to make racially charged remarks and jokes when there aren't any perceived consequences because it's for the lulz but not appropriate in "real life"?

Ask yourself if you think these people aren't thinking these things when they're deciding to treat you as an equal or not. It's one thing to have racial jokes with your friends who you've known for a while, it's another thing to say some racist shit to people you don't know. Would it be appropriate for someone to say "yeah you don't deserve to be getting the same food I get because you're a minority" followed up by "just kidding lols". How about if they say "you deserve to die because you're a dirty impure minority" followed up by "jk LOLS".

Normalization of this kind of shit is dangerous and at a certain point some people don't get the "joke".

0

u/yungr33zy Apr 05 '18

In the comment u reply to I address this. I said these people probably would do some racist shit if u gave them the chance, but those actions in and of themselves aren’t racist.

In my opinion racism is black and white(no pun). If one person doing it would be racist, any person doing it would be racist regardless of familiarity etc. say me and my white friend joking and I tell him he doesn’t season his chicken and he says you would know about chicken wouldn’t you. Racially charged sure, not racism.

Some random white man on th street says the same thing to me, still not racist, though I’d respond differently because we aren’t familiar. This is the same case with fat people short people etc - you are more willing to hear insensitive shit from your friends.

The examples of jokes you gave don’t really seem like jokes lol I wouldn’t let anyone even a friend say that to me

2

u/NinjaRedditorAtWork Apr 05 '18

Right, there's context with everything. The issue is that right now the argument presented by OP is that twitch chat isn't made up of racist people who demean minorities when they throw aneles or trihards up on screen. They're just being racially insensitive. The question I'm posing is "where is the line"?

A person who is calling you a derogatory term is racism. They're using words to demean you. Regardless if it's intentional to hurt or not. I'm not telling you that you're wrong, you are free to feel your own feelings (just as everyone is) but the argument is that while you may not feel offended by it, historically demeaning words were used to separate people out. By allowing it to be "oh it's just someone making a joke" it normalizes the situation. I agree with you, the chicken thing doesn't make someone inherently racist, but the joke itself is racist.

The examples of jokes you gave don’t really seem like jokes lol I wouldn’t let anyone even a friend say that to me

And yes, I did that intentionally because if you ask around a lot of twitch users/reddit users you'll find that they'll say it's just fine to drop that kind of shit because they're joking. If you've played PUBG and sat in a lobby the sheer amount of n-bombs going off is stupidly high. Shit like that is completely normalized and interpreted as "jokes" by them.

I'm curious about how you feel with people like the situation with pewdiepie during his stream. Do you feel like his comments were racist? Do you feel like it is acceptable?

2

u/orcinovein Apr 06 '18

Systemic racism and casual racism are both racism.

1

u/yungr33zy Apr 06 '18

To me systemic racism is things like the prison industrial complex.. or media propaganda to make blacks seem like we are always the aggressor, or having a stigma attached to a black sounding name or dreadlocks being deemed ‘unprofessional’ and that being used as a basis to keep black people out or beneath a certain level.

Casual racism is sundown towns in the south where you don’t wanna stop for gas or anything else if you’re black. Being “randomly” chosen for a bag search because of ur ethnicity.

Dumb ass jokes are not nearly as serious as what bonafide racism is. It can be indicative of what a person thinks but that joke itself is not racism

2

u/orcinovein Apr 06 '18

Well I hope you eventually shed this personal definition of racism and come to realize how ingrained it is in our society. And that events like this are part of the problem.

1

u/yungr33zy Apr 06 '18

I go through this shit more than you do I promise you .. I know the difference between people making jokes and people treating races a certain way.

1

u/orcinovein Apr 06 '18

And now you know the experiences of someone you’re conversing with on Reddit... your entire argument is absolutely ridiculous.

1

u/Noyousername Apr 05 '18

Thanks for that interesting perspective.

It feels like your argument is that (obviously) being racially insensitive is bad, but it takes a habit or pattern of racial insensitivity to be considered 'racist'.

Like, forgive the basic analogy, but:

  • 'Stupid' people, say a lot of dumb things
  • People who say a lot of dumb things, tend to be 'stupid'.

  • We all say dumb things from time to time, but that doesn't meant we're necessarily 'stupid' - just that we acted 'stupid' way and should be mindful not to.

2

u/yungr33zy Apr 05 '18

Kind of, but you can be racist after just one instance though of hard racism.

If you’re a lender and you throw out a loan request because you read my name is Daquan you’re racist.

If we work together and you see me in the hallways and go “ayyyy wassaaap Daquan “ or some shit that’s not racist, you’re racially insensitive or whatever the term. Even though that blatantly references my race and might make me feel weird.

1

u/orcinovein Apr 06 '18

Yiiiiiikes.

2

u/ituralde_ Apr 05 '18

The distinction I was trying to point out was the gap between 'intent' vs 'action'.

I think the expectation is that racist/homophibic/etc intent isn't acceptable for a community like this. Thus, a player either doesn't have that intent (and will choose decency in the future) or they do (and will be removed from the community when they choose not to reform).

I just don't like the idea of eternally crucifying young people for not having thought twice about how their actions show up. I think people should be given the opportunity to show they are better than the mistakes of their youth. While punishment is absolutely appropriate, the goal of it should be reforming the behavior of the player so they behave as any public figure should.