r/Competitiveoverwatch Apr 05 '18

Discussion Racism vs Racial Insensitivity in Esports

[EDIT 2] adding more explicit commentary because reading comprehension is hard.

The esports community has failed at this distinction and it has caused a lot of drama and consternation.

Racism is believing awful things about some group. [EDIT] Think of this as a measure of Character.

Racial insensitivity is saying something about a group that is offensive. [EDIT] Think of this as characterizing someones actions. You could also call this "racist actions", describing the actions a person took. I chose the phrasing to make a distinction between actions and character, not to pretend that this made the actions not racist.

[EDIT 2] The phrasing doesn't matter here and it's a shame I can't edit the title because people are caught up on this. The important distinction (again) is character judgement vs actions. Neither racist actions no racist character are something the community should tolerate. The distinction only matters in that someone who does not want to be known as racist will be willing to reform their racist or otherwise offensive behaviors when given the opportunity. That's why it's important to remember that, when it comes to Actions and Character:

These are not the same thing.

Both are incredibly important. Impact is more important than intent; it's important to be cognizant of how your actions are interpreted by the world around you. [EDIT 2] This means that being racially sensitive is a terrible thing and merits the punishments that have been getting given out.

That said, it's similarly inappropriate to always assume racism in the presence of racial insensitivity. [EDIT 2] This means that not everyone who says something awful and punishment-worth is doing so out of outright racism. Young, dumb kids say and do dumb shit for reasons above and beyond being a terrible person.

The important behavior we want to teach to players and fans is that sensitivity matters, and we undermine that by accusing everyone who makes a mistake on the sensitivity front of being immediately racist/homophobic/etc.

Racial and other insensitivity is and should continue to be punished by the Overwatch league and its constituent teams. The important result of this should be that lessons are learned, not that players are crucified.

Take a look at EQO's case - he made a mistake. For a lot of us, it's an obvious mistake but clearly not one he thought of. Both he and the Philadelphia Fusion made sincere responses to the mistake. This is a perfect example of how this shit should be handled. We as a community should also treat it as such, and while we should be harsh on players who do make these mistakes, we should also encourage these young people from various backgrounds to learn from such mistakes. Let them be examples to their fans, don't bury them in negativity.

This is really important.

[EDIT 2] For clarity since this has been all over the comments, EQO not only fucked up bigtime through his actions, he made it worse by trying to play coverup. The good response absolutely was at the behest of some authority figure in the Fusion, and that's exactly what we should expect of organizations in the league. We, as a community, should take a trust-but-verify approach - give the Fusion credit for their swift response and give EQO the benefit of the doubt that this was a lapse of judgement, but also keep an eye out that the final statement was sincere.

Take a look at XQC for another example.

In full disclosure, I don't like XQC. I don't like the majority of his fans. I'm probably naturally biased against him.

However, I don't think he's a racist, and I sympathize with the guy who is broken over being saddled with this label by the powers that be.

He made a mistake. Sure, he hasn't really shown that he understands this but at the same time, how the heck could he? He's being told he's racist which isn't something he's capable of identifying with. He doesn't share the beliefs he's being accused of, so how could he get anything from this?

He's not a racist. He made a huge fuckup and has been hounded by the community as if he's evil. He's not evil, he fucked up. He displayed poor judgement, that doesn't make him a bad person - it makes him human.

[EDIT 2] I thought this was clear from context but the important distinction is that he doesn't see him as a racist and continuing to accuse him of that worldview doesn't help anything. His actions WERE racist. You could say he was "acting racist" or "being racist" in reference to his actions if that terminology fits it better. Does he have a racist worldview? Only insofar as he clearly doesn't understand why it's important to be sensitive about how you show up publicly.

XQC isn't the first and EQO won't be the last to make these mistakes. So let's learn a lesson as a community and give these players the window to improve themselves and how they show up in public. Condemn the action, not the person - give them the window to reform. Let them acknowledge the difference between intent vs impact and use these examples to teach the community about why this matters.

Demonizing the people only undermines the opportunity for a lesson to be learned by the players and the community as a whole.

Let's maintain our standards, but enable our players to rise above careless behavior to those standards. Let's not saddle them eternally with the baggage of a mistake made of youth, ignorance, community-driven habit, and/or carelessness. Let's not make accusations of a person's character when they yet have the opportunity to grow from a poor choice.

[EDIT] This has gotten way more traction than I ever thought it would, so I'd like to clarify a few things in simple terms.

  1. The punishments were good and appropriate. I think the first reaction to negative behavior would be to stop it and punish. Only after should we look at how to rehabilitate bad behavior.

  2. The distinction I'm trying to draw here is the difference between Actions and Character. I think a redeemable Character can perform reprehensible actions. In the case someone does something reprehensible, we shouldn't shut the door on them redeeming themselves if they choose to accept responsibility and reform. That's really all I'm trying to say.

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18 edited May 19 '20

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

I got “Ching Chong, small dicked chink” yelled at me at least once a week from 3rd grade to 8th grade. I went to school in the inner city, so not the greatest place. I was a minority among minorities.

But those were kids who grew up not knowing better.

When you’re on the stage or in stream and more or less indirectly representing a multibillion company’s image, you need to think very carefully, which is extremely difficult. But it’s just something you have to do.

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

you need to think very carefully, which is extremely difficult.

I think this is overstatement. They only need to think very carefully if they're brimming with racist thoughts and feelings.

We're not asking OWL players to critically think about and discuss racism culture, which would difficult, we're just asking them to not say and do racist things. If that's a high ask of an OWL player, that's a problem.

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

Casual racism is everywhere. It takes careful thinking to stop it.

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u/mig-san Apr 05 '18

Same with casual homophobia, people use terms like 'that's gay' not refering to sexuality, but just in a negative manner as if it were the equivalent of 'that's bad'

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u/Voidward Apr 05 '18

I think it's best people just stop talking altogether. Eventually every piece of human interaction will be labelled offensive by someone, so why take the chance? Twitch emotes get you banned, touching your face wrong gets you banned, the wrong word gets you banned, why take the chance?

Turn off your mic, turn off your webcam, and just sit in a room silently playing video games so that no one can be violently assaulted through their screen over the internet.

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u/merrissey 8=============D ameng wuz here — Apr 05 '18

This line of thinking is so hilarious. "I can't wrap my brain around why people are offended by certain things and refuse to even attempt to broaden my perspective, so I'm just gonna act like everyone is so outrageously over reactionary that we're living in a dystopian pro censorship society!"

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u/Voidward Apr 05 '18

People can be as offended as they want. I can understand people being as offended by anything they want. You have the right to be as triggered by anything you choose. Some people are deathly afraid of balloons, and they have a right to be.

You don't have a right to compel the speech of others. This is something you don't understand. Feelings don't trump liberty and law. There's only one country in the world that has freedom of speech in it's laws and people like you are absolutely fine with stripping it over hurt feelings. I find that absolutely disgusting.

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

We don't live in a dystopian pro censorship society, but people like you are certainly doing your best to push it in that direction. I can't grasp how you can watch 1984 and say "yeah that has no similarities to my advocacy that certain speech be punishable by fine or law. People probably should be literally punished for wrongthink, but that has no relation to this dystopian future the author was attempting to warn me of."

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

“I think people should be more aware of how common casual racism/homophobia is, and how it impacts minorities.”

“Wow this is how 1984 begins. Welcome to our dystopian reality everyone, might as well see my mouth shut.” -Voidward

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u/Voidward Apr 05 '18

People should be more aware. Certainly.

Do tell, how does fining someone 3 times come into being aware? How does making it essentially illegal to say things within their job qualify as awareness to you?

You are extremely dense if you think censorship and awareness are the same thing. He is literally being censored, because if he keeps doing this, he will be ejected from OWL, gauranteed. That is censorship no matter how you try to twist this.

You are in denial. You are pro censorship and you're trying to play this off as something else, my Orwellian friend.

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

Calling punishments within a job “illegal”

K

I’m convinced you’re just a troll by this and other comments, it’s kinda sad really.

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u/Voidward Apr 05 '18

I figured you'd find an excuse to exit the argument when you had no more ways of defending your position. Later I guess?

He literally cannot do something or else he will lose his job and a lot of money. Yes, it's within the company's right to do so, and it's still censorship that this subreddit is wholly advocating for. That isn't spreading awareness, that's denying speech. I'm sorry you have no way of defending this.

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

That's not censorship. Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences, especially because our speech is (mostly) protected from the government, not private entities. Beyond that, it's not like Blizzard is would ban EQO from streaming Overwatch. He's an employee. Employment has rules, and private businesses have a lot of power and leeway in how they run things. If you have an issue with it, then take it up with the concept of private property.

It's not censorship. Unless, of course, you believe employers should not be allowed to fire employees for speech.

And I'm sure you support Colin Kaepernick too, consider he's barred from the NFL de facto by owners for his speech.

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u/Voidward Apr 06 '18

You're taking this in another angle from the guy I replied to above. I'm not against private businesses doing what they want in terms of their employees.

My issue is with this dude spinning this as though it's about promoting awareness. I have no issue with someone going out and saying "that's not cool." or "this shit brings back bad memories, please don't in the future". Most people don't want to be assholes.

Taking money away from someone doesn't promote awareness. It's a punishment and a deterrent. This dude can legit be fired if this happens again. It's absolutely about controlling his speech, even if there was absolutely no malice behind his actions.

Beyond that, it's not like Blizzard is would ban EQO from streaming Overwatch

I don't actually agree. They could absolutely ban someone from the game and claim they broke TOS, and twitch could ban them for the same reasons. Discrimination clause is fairly common in TOS, and if they choose to interpret this or similar action in this way or had enough people campaign for this, it absolutely could happen.

There's a man in Scotland right now who was convicted for posting a joke on youtube, that he clearly stated was a joke in the video, targeting no one directly, that a judge ruled was disparaging against Jews when he was in fact ridiculing nazis. Shit like this is deeply depressing to me.

I strongly disagree with the idea that wrongthing could cost you your job because someone somewhere could have their feelings hurt because they choose to misinterpret or ignore intent.

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u/[deleted] Apr 06 '18

I'm taking it in another angle because I don't agree with your framing of the issue. I'm not super interested in what the other guy said. I'm just so tired of hearing "X is censorship" whenever someone is punished for being racist. It's not censorship because these are private associations. Our society is structured to allow private entities to do more or less what they want based on what's best for their business - even if it's morally wrong. It's fundamental to our society. Now, I'm not saying this is right or wrong. I'm unabashedly a leftist, so I'm not actually in favor of this. But it's not censorship when a boss fires a worker for trying to form a union. It's wrong. But it's not censorship.

When it comes to an issue like what EQO did, he has to understand that he doesn't choose how his words are interpreted. You don't. I don't. No one does. Any communication - including body language or gestures, like the one EQO did - rely on cultural contexts. And we live in a culture - in a world - where Western propaganda meant to dehumanize East Asians has exaggerated their eyes, making them into a joke. It's spread, and it's still used to insult Asians today. Even if there's no malice behind it (and we can't know, though I'm sure he wasn't trying to be racist), he ultimately referenced this history.

Something similar happened in my personal life. I was joking with a black acquaintance in college, and I did a "YEAH BOIII" in a Lil' John voice. He looked at me, visibly pissed, and with a still, angry voice and said "Don't call me boy again." I wasn't trying to insult or offend him. It was completely incidental. But I made a joke that had me (a white guy) calling him (a black guy) boy, which is racist. Do I consider myself a racist? No. I loathe racism. But my intent didn't matter. Because intent doesn't matter. If I intend to high five you, and I slap you in the face, does it take away the pain? No. You might understand, but it doesn't undo the slap. And really, how can you know that wasn't what I wanted to do all along? So what I'm saying is, your intent doesn't matter. People usually don't choose to misinterpret or ignore intent without some serious agenda. I don't think anyone's specifically targeting EQO because if Taimou or Jake or Logix did this, there would be the same outrage. And yeah, some people will bullshit and willfully misinterpret stuff, but more often than not they're honest. And it takes a cult leader for a whole group of people to willfully misinterpret words. That's not what's going on here. I don't think anyone's out to get EQO. If I thought this was being done to punish him specifically because the owners doesn't like them criticizing them, but they can't punish him for it, so they need an excuse, then I'd agree. But it's not. I just wish Blizzard would be more consistent.

So does he deserve to be punished? I'd say yeah, he does. This has more to do with feelings. I'm personally unaffected. But Blizzard is trying to run a business, and they want OWL to be a welcoming space. Gaming has issues with inclusivity, so showing that anything racist (or broadly considered racist) will not be tolerated is critical to do this. Otherwise, people can look at OWL, look at its players doing questionable shit, look at the people inevitably pushing the line, and say "Wow, this is problematic." Or Blizzard can punish players. It's not about controlling EQO's speech as much as it is ensuring OWL is welcoming towards all. You can't do that if people are being toxic.

Besides, if we take consequences to equal controlling then you're saying speech shouldn't have consequences. And if you do, then that's you. But I just don't agree with that because words matter. They change minds, create feelings, spur action. They're not meaningless by definition. Actions demand consequences.

Yes, Blizzard could ban EQO. I should have said they're not going to ban him from streaming, much like they haven't banned XQC from streaming. Sure, they're broad, but how often do platforms like Twitter or Facebook or large social media sites - including Reddit - ban users for hate speech? Not often.

Plus, EQO still has the opportunity to learn, grow, and get better. This isn't defining him. He made a mistake. It sucks. I hope he learns and grows from it.

And yeah, the British government under Theresa May really sucks for privacy and speech rights. But that's the Brits. Plus, it's not censorship like Orwell envisioned it because he's very focused on criticizing politicians. He loathed Stalin who used censorship to destroy his enemies and keep them fragmented. It's dangerous. But even what the British Government did isn't quite Orwellian (at least with speech, how our privacy is invaded and how we're surveilled is). It's dumb and horrible, but it's not what Orwell was envisioning. I agree; it's depressing. But that's why I support Corbyn.

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u/funkypoi Diya Fan — Apr 05 '18

There's only one country in the world that has freedom of speech in it's laws

??? only one?

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u/UglyDucklett Apr 06 '18 edited Apr 06 '18

See, the problem with this argument is that it's uh... Totally Wrong.

Free speech is a limitation placed on government, not on businesses or the people. You can't be jailed for making slanty eyes, and you have the right to vocally disagree with your government without being punished for it.

If blizzard wants to ban anyone who says the word "pepperoni" they are 100% allowed to do so. The community is run by a corporation, not the government, and abide by different laws.

And if we as an overwhelming majority decide that we don't want people who say or do disgusting shit in our physical or virtual communities, we are well within our rights to try and make it happen or to punish them in ways deemed acceptable by the laws governing those communities.

Our ability to have these protests and conversations is what is really protected by the first amendment, not some streamer's ability to say what they want on twitch or reddit.

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u/Voidward Apr 06 '18

And if we as an overwhelming majority decide

So, as long as my bubble agrees with me then I'm right. Because live revolves around reddit upvotes.

Good to know you can't be jailed for slant eyes, you can just lose your job, be branded a racist and be unhireable in the future. Thank God, it's so much worse getting free food in a box than getting no food under a bridge.

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u/UglyDucklett Apr 07 '18

wisdom in numbers

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u/Voidward Apr 07 '18

So might makes right. Ok, so Hitler did nothing wrong because he had more tanks, guns, and soldiers? Along with the German people reaching consensus that Jews were bad and they needed some more living space. I mean they had numbers, hence wisdom?

Thanks for your input, I'll take it into consideration that morality is what you can convince enough people to be correct.

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u/UglyDucklett Apr 07 '18

no, because the entire world teamed up to punch hitler's face in. hitler is the person who was branded a racist and was decimated for it, and serves as proof that there are people who should be shunned for their actions. if he had won, god forbid, the history books might be singing his praises today.

and yes, morality is decided by the majority. you can have a problem with that all you like and wish it weren't true, but personally i take it as a good thing that we can change the world through speeches and protests convincing people to see things from new points of view.

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u/Voidward Apr 06 '18

You're conflating free speech, the concept, with the 1st amendment. I didn't bring up the first amendment. You're trying to hand wave this away as though it isn't censorship. It is. Censorship is antithetical to free speech.

I've got a bunch of people doing this thing where they're smugly linking me the wikipedia article on free speech, without reading it, and assumping it's going to be an article explaining the 1st amendment. They're not the same thing. I'm not falling back on US law, I'm discussing concepts, while people arguing with me think they've got this gotcha moment when they can feel smart while utterly failing to actually grasp what I'm saying.

I'm not even arguing for people's rights to make slanty eyes. I have an issue with punishments being doled out on the whims of a mob. Any group who can pressure the government or a corporation or advertisers that something they don't like is bad or racitst or insensitive in some way can ruin another person permanently, regardless of that person's intent. That is CANCER.

Yes, there's no laws preventing a person from doing something, but if they lose their job and no one will hire them, what's the difference? Is being a hobo so much better than going to jail? I am extremely uneasy with the fact that any organised group can essentially decide that based on their feelings someone can lose the right to earn a living.

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u/UglyDucklett Apr 07 '18

yes, if you are that major of a societal fuck-up, you will be ostracized from society.

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u/Voidward Apr 07 '18 edited Apr 07 '18

So you advocate for mob rule and if the mob decides you've engaged in wrongthink, regardless of reality, then you deserve to not be able to feed yourself or your family.

Interesting position, not one I share. Thanks for your opinion.

Edit: Good to know Salem witch trials were also the pinnacle of justice. I used to think that was an abomination, but hey as long as the crowd all agree that it's a witch and they no longer deserve to live.

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u/UglyDucklett Apr 07 '18

you're being hyperbolic, try rereading the last paragraph of my first response

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u/orcinovein Apr 06 '18

I think this is a fine case of how many people fail to understand what freedom of speech actually means. Read up. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech

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u/WikiTextBot Apr 06 '18

Freedom of speech

Freedom of speech is a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or a community to articulate their opinions and ideas without fear of retaliation, censorship, or sanction. The term "freedom of expression" is sometimes used synonymously but includes any act of seeking, receiving, and imparting information or ideas, regardless of the medium used.

Freedom of expression is recognized as a human right under article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) and recognized in international human rights law in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR). Article 19 of the UDHR states that "everyone shall have the right to hold opinions without interference" and "everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression; this right shall include freedom to seek, receive and impart information and ideas of all kinds, regardless of frontiers, either orally, in writing or in print, in the form of art, or through any other media of his choice".


[ PM | Exclude me | Exclude from subreddit | FAQ / Information | Source ] Downvote to remove | v0.28

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u/HelperBot_ Apr 06 '18

Non-Mobile link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech


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u/Voidward Apr 06 '18

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech
Ok, let's read the first line...

Freedom of speech is a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or a community to articulate their opinions and ideas without fear of retaliation, censorship, or sanction.

LOL wut?

Fining him money was retaliation. He will be sanctioned if he does it again, and as a byproduct, he will be forced to self-censor.

I'm sorry, did you actually read what you pasted me or did your smugness get in the way? Maybe you thought you were linking me to an article on the 1st amendment. Nowhere did the 1st amendment come into this, but the concept of free speech itself, which apparently you think means something else.

If only we could all be as educated as you.

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u/HelperBot_ Apr 06 '18

Non-Mobile link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech


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u/Voidward Apr 06 '18

"educate yourself shitlord" is a classy response.

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u/merrissey 8=============D ameng wuz here — Apr 06 '18

Feelings don't trump liberty and law. There's only one country in the world that has freedom of speech in it's laws and people like you are absolutely fine with stripping it over hurt feelings.

The best part about how your posts escalated is that I literally tagged you with "BabyRage MUH FREE SPEECH BabyRage" before you actually started crying about free speech. It was just obvious that we were gonna end up there.

For the record, you are fundamentally misunderstanding what "free speech" means. It does not mean saying whatever you want, whenever you want, however you want, among whatever company, etc. with no repercussions.

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u/Voidward Apr 06 '18

Congratulations. I am glad you are so well educated on free speech that you have no respect for it, and preemptively ridiculed he idea. I commend your accomplishments.

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u/merrissey 8=============D ameng wuz here — Apr 06 '18 edited Apr 06 '18

Hey, thanks! Congrats to you for having so little idea of what it is you're championing that I can only be impressed that a person could be so staunch and passionate about something they don't even understand.

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u/Voidward Apr 06 '18 edited Apr 06 '18

Literally Wikipedia:

Freedom of speech is a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or a community to articulate their opinions and ideas without fear of retaliation, censorship, or sanction.

What happened to EQO was retaliation, censorship, and sanction. What Blizzard is trying to do is instil a fear in others of doing the same. It could not tresspass on the concept any more clearly than what happened. You clueless smug leftist iditot. You feel happy you got your talking points in without even grasping what you're saying?

You're conflating free speech with the 1st amendment. This isn't a discussion of concepts, you're literally trotting out talking points in attempt to win an epeen contest. You're disingenuous to levels that I don't even want to interact with anymore.

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u/merrissey 8=============D ameng wuz here — Apr 06 '18

Freedom of speech is a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or a community to articulate their opinions and ideas without fear of retaliation, censorship, or sanction.

Why do I have the strong feeling that you only read that one sentence, and not the rest of the article (or any further documentation about the interpretation of free speech)? Oh, probably because of this tidbit found in literally the next paragraph:

The version of Article 19 in the ICCPR later amends this by stating that the exercise of these rights carries "special duties and responsibilities" and may "therefore be subject to certain restrictions" when necessary "[f]or respect of the rights or reputation of others" or "[f]or the protection of national security or of public order (order public), or of public health or morals".

This amendment was entered into force in 1976. Your definition of "freedom of speech" as a principle which protects all opinions and actions has literally been out of date for over 40 years.

Later:

Freedom of speech and expression, therefore, may not be recognized as being absolute, and common limitations to freedom of speech relate to libel, slander, obscenity, pornography, sedition, incitement, fighting words, classified information, copyright violation, trade secrets, food labeling, non-disclosure agreements, the right to privacy, the right to be forgotten, public security, and perjury.

Blizzard and team orgs are completely within their rights to punish their employees for behavior they interpret as offensive, be it use of language, physical gestures, etc. Just like your coworker isn't allowed to pull his eyelids back to make his eyes appear slanted at the company party because he thinks it's funny, Eqo can't get away with it. In both cases, it's because the company doesn't want their employees behaving in that way, and they're allowed to establish and enforce those restrictions on behavior. There's nothing morally or legally reprimandable about this, and you are wasting your breath.

I'd toss out a "keep throwing your misguided tantrums", but I don't need to invite you to do that; you're very obviously the type of person who only listens to the sound of their own voice and happens to enjoy the tune of it quite a lot. As tickled as I am to see how obviously shaken you are by everyone ripping you apart in the comments based on that dank "smug leftist idiot" (looooool), it's honestly pretty sad to think that you may literally never acknowledge a 40 year old amendment of the definition of "free speech" and will drive so many people like me to waste their time trying to fruitlessly explain it to you. C'est la vie.

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u/Auszi Apr 05 '18

Ah but you see, they found a loophole. You can just use mob justice to quell free speech, and still technically have free speech on the books.

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u/Voidward Apr 05 '18

Free speech within my bubble because everyone agrees with me. No speech for anyone else. We're not Orwellian at all, I swear!

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

You're overreacting. It's obvious how offensive what EQO did to many people. You think it's some kind of compliment that he made slant eyes? How out of touch are you?

Are you ok with someone mocking you for being different?

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u/Voidward Apr 07 '18

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but this from today just makes my point:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/8ajbk9/just_got_silenced_11_days_for_being_positive_my/

Silenced by Blizzard because being positive triggered people since their perception of it was that it was sarcasm. Literally anything can be offensive to someone. Intention is irrelevant. Context is irrelevant. My feelings are all that is required to punish someone else.

This is ridiculous. It makes me really sad that everyone here thinks that more censorship is the solution.

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u/Voidward Apr 05 '18

Yes, I am the one that I'd overreacting. Clearly.

Is it obvious that what he did was intended to be offensive to many people? Is it obvious that he was ridiculing Asian people as a group by making slanty eyes? Or is it that people are stripping this of all context and reacting completely irrationally to this?

Yes I am OK with people saying things I don't like. It's called being a well adjusted adult.

Here, I have Ukrainian, Austrian, Russian and Tatar backgrounds. Have at it, do your worst. I love me some potatoes, I one of my grandparents could have been Hitler's best friend, and there's a good chance Stalin wiped out near a quarter of my relatives in the holodomor. Also, a quarter of my ancestry are borderline mongoloids. That's some good material, throw some ethnically charged insults my way I'll rate them on 1-10 scale, and if you actually manage to insult me, I'll give you a 9/11 rating. Good luck.

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

Does intent matter? There’s almost no context in which what he did is considered acceptable. I take it people have not insulted you in the same manner EQO did all your life. What context could make it ok? You say it as if it could be a good thing.

Do I think he’s a bad person? Don’t know, don’t know the guy. He’s also already received his punishment. I don’t care about that. It’s people who think that he did absolutely nothing wrong. Am I personally insulted by what he did? No, but he really shouldn’t be doing that.

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u/Voidward Apr 05 '18

I think your attitude perpetuates the concept that there's something wrong with Asians. You attitude is racist.

If you think that being Asian is so terrible that even imitating it is supposed to be insulting, then you're helping keep the stereotype alive. I don't think there's anything wrong with Asians. If someone called me Asian, there would be no reason to interpret that as an insult. You seem to disagree. Being Asian is so insulting according to you and most people discussing this topic, that no one should ever accuse another person of being Asian. That insult is unbearable.

The context that would make it ok is the context in which people don't assume imitating characteristics of another race is in itself an insult.

There's a real slippery slope here that I don't want to travel down. Clearly it's also racist to imitate Asian accents right? Ok, what about other accents? Deep voice black guy? Seems ok today for most people, but if blackface isn't ok, why is a black guy voice ok? Then were do we go? Why wouldn't a southerner voice be discriminatory stereotyping? New Yorker voice? British voice? At that point, aren't all accents racist? So no one can do accents?

Cultural appropriation is already some retarded shit people one step to the left of your are trying to make a thing, can I not longer wear any clothing or hair styles that I don't have genetic ties to? Do we carry around a little passport with our genetic makeup, or maybe a nice little tattoo clearly indicating what race we are and aren't? This way we can tell what we can and can't do, and wear, and this is all progress towards ending racism?

How do you not see how absolutely ridiculous this is. You think clearly separating and segregating all races and behaviours is supposed to end racism? Being extremely sensitive about your race and trying to punish others to even acknowledge it is supposed to bring about equality? You people have LOST THE PLOT.

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

Nah, it's just that people have always made fun of Asians by doing what he did, so he shouldn't do it. Simple as that. You're making shit up.

And I've never cared about accent humor unless it's from someone who is using it as a mockery of the people who speak that way.

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u/Voidward Apr 05 '18

People called me nerd in a disparaging manner when I was young. I was offended as a child by this. I've heard Uber use that term while casting. Do I get to take umbrage with this and demand he be fined? I mean, I know the context he was using it in is positive, but I hear context is utterly irrelevant. Nerd has been a disparaging term for DECADES prior to basically the last 10 years, and some people still use it that way.

I have a Russian background, and I used to have an accent but no longer do. Kids made fun of it when I first immigrated. Should I be taking offence every time one uses that accent? Or says suka blyat jokingly because it's a stereotype?

Seriously, where the fuck do you draw the lines that that certain speech needs to be made, essentially illegal, regardless of context?

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

You could, I'd be pretty pissed if people made fun of how I talked. What is offensive or isn't offensive is arbitrary. But in the specific context of EQO, he did it in a country where everyone sees what he did to be an insult. Should he not be reprimanded?

Also, he's representing multiple large companies that don't want someone to do something like what he did.

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u/reboticon Apr 05 '18

Does intent matter? There’s almost no context in which what he did is considered acceptable

Except the context that he did it in should be borderline* acceptable because it was not mocking it was imitation. Someone said he was playing as well as a Korean, and he did the gesture and said Look at me I'm Korean. He was acknowledging that Koreans are the best in this game.

*by borderline I mean that I really do not think this instance should be offensive BUT I recognize that with the history of the gesture, it will always be offensive simply for existing.

Intent SHOULD matter, though. It certainly does in courts of law, and I don't see how anyone could interpret it as him trying to offend.

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

I guess. I get what he was trying to do, but man, he really should have realized what he was doing.

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u/reboticon Apr 05 '18

I agree, he should have, but I - at least, don't know about you - have a long history in the USA. He doesn't. So what is obvious as night and day to people who have lived in the USA, may not be obvious to people from other countries.

Here is an example I've been using. Thumbs up gesture in Greece means 'Up Yours,' it's the equivalent of our flipping the bird. If a Greek player gets signed and someone says 'great play' to him and gives him a thumbs up, should that player be punished for not knowing that what is a positive gesture in the US is an insult in Greece?

His punishment is lesser, so maybe they did take some of this into consideration. I just think that if a person makes a dumb mistake, clearly with no ill intent, a genuine apology should probably be enough.

I don't know, I feel like lately society has been moving backwards towards an eye for an eye, and that sort of thing eventually leads to the whole world being blind.

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

Nah, I think his punishment is sufficient. I just think it's stupid that people are trying to act like he did nothing wrong.

Hopefully he learns.

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

Did you read OP's post? Casual insensitivity is common. 99% of people arent racist just because their ancestors were. The left likes to say america is a racist place even though it isn't and institutionalized racism is about as common as measles. I am tired of being called a racist just because I am a white guy.

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

Institutional racism is alive and well. I don't know how you can deny its existence.

Nowhere in here is anyone saying you are racist for being white. If you feel that way then maybe think about why you feel that way.

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

Institutional racism alive and well? It is literally illegal. Do you know what institutional means? Listen, no one is personally calling me a rascist but I see people calling others digusting racsist/bigots for stupid shit all the time on this site.

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

We have different definitions of institutional racism.

Institutional does not have to mean encoded in law.

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u/allprologue Geguri Dragons — Apr 05 '18

even if it did have to mean encoded in law, it still is. Just in different words, like 'voter id' or 'stand your ground'

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u/NeV3RMinD Apr 06 '18

It's fucking hilarious how people call voter ID laws racist and then pretend they're not racist. You people are benevolent white supremacists.

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

yeah, but those aren't overtly racist. they exist to take away the rights of black people, but removed from context they look sort of reasonable.

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u/allprologue Geguri Dragons — Apr 05 '18

yep, that's what it looks like in modern society.

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

Man are you straight anti western society?

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u/allprologue Geguri Dragons — Apr 05 '18

Yeah I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that if you're being called a racist it's not because you're white. You got some thinking to do, if you ever decide you want to.

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

Also you implying that I am a unthinking moron for disagree with you which is so fucking typically for leftists on this site. You refuse to even have serious conversations about these topics like the OP recommended. It is easier just to dismiss any wayward opinion as stupid backward rightwing propaganda.

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u/allprologue Geguri Dragons — Apr 05 '18

and ANOTHER THING!

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

What are you implying?

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u/allprologue Geguri Dragons — Apr 05 '18

i'm laughing at you replying to me twice. don't worry it's not because you're white

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

I replied twice because it seemed inappropriate to edit a comment with a completely new thought. Get over yourself bro...

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18 edited Apr 05 '18

I wasn't being called a rascist but people like me were for utterly petty shit. Of course now you are saying that I am a rascist for even implying that I think this calling "everyone is racist game" is wrong. Thank you, for just prooving my point. All I said was that I am white and these people come out and saying that I am wrong for thinking I am not racist even though they know nothing about me. You guys need to stop this. You are playing the intersectional politics game and it will bite you in the ass.

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

Ok, so we have a couple of problems here.

  1. the institutional racism comment. that's literally just not true. the most obvious example is that black people are given longer sentences for the same crimes, and despite their small proportion to the overall population in the country, make up most of its prisoners for drug-related offenses, and they are more likely to get pulled over despite getting traffic violations at the same rate, to name a few. this isn't institutional, but god help you if you're a black man and decide to carry a rifle in public

  2. only crazy people will see white and assume you are racist immediately. you say you feel attacked and are tired of being called racist, but why? if you're american, people who look like you make up most of the population and control most of the government.

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

I don't feel attacked by the mainstream by any means but you are delusional if you dont see certain elements that do preach about how american and whites are guilty of crimes against the world. I seems we are playing the game of these radical elements when we really ought not to.

As for the stats you sited I am not in a position to refute them, but I would suspect there is more too it than white racism.

For example more blacks getting arrested for drug offenses is almost certainly more to do the high rates of single motherhood in black communities. Also the stigma in the black community against "acting white" certainly doesnt help. The NY times recently reported on how black men get arrested more often even in the highest income brackets yet black women who are from wealthy backgrounds arent arrested more than their white counterparts. Surely that suggest race isn't the issue? Surely racist cops would be more racist to women than men? People like to say racist is the issue and it is institutional problems but I doubt it is the cause of the issue except in fringe cases.

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

I mean, if you want to look at european colonialism fucking over the world, look at

-opium in China

-the congo in Africa

-native Americans

which all have happened relatively recently, in the context of modern sociteties. people are not guilty for the crimes of their ancestors, but white people really have fucked over the people of everywhere they've gone.

Of course, there are more factors, but institutional racism is huge. Why do you think black communities in America in such poor positions when Africans who come to America don't seem to face the same challenges? Slavery ended 150 years ago. MLK died 50 years ago. That was only 2 and less than 1 generations ago. Not enough time.

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

Come on just say it. I am racist because my ancestors were. You imply it.

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

Nope! I don't believe that, otherwise I'd be racist because Chinese people are generally quite racist.

Sorry man, not going to validate your wanting to feel oppressed today.

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

I don't feel oppressed lol. I well aware of the history of the west, I literally minored in history. I just dont think that citing shit that happened when I wasnt even alive is relevant. You guys say there so much institutional racism when the evidence suggest that it was at an all time low before obama (not saying this was something obama caused).

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u/allprologue Geguri Dragons — Apr 05 '18

you're way to defensive and emotional on behalf of white people and that's coming from somewhere weird, that's what people are trying to tell you. even if people were going around calling you racist for no reason, which you have been told multiple times is not the case, literally what is it costing you, in comparison to people who actually suffer from the effects of racism in their daily lives.

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

So if some leftist says I am racist becuase white people used to do fucked up shit, I should just accept that? Isnt that assuming I am going to act a certain way because of my skin color? You see where this is going? It is intersectional politics and it is losing game. You should judge someone by their individual traits, not their history

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u/allprologue Geguri Dragons — Apr 05 '18

it's weird that you don't want to be prematurely judged by people who you are dismissing as "some leftists".

you are spiraling right in front of us. relax, drink some tea, go laugh at a poor person, whatever calms you down

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u/[deleted] Apr 05 '18

Christ bro, when you Spout the prevailing left logic of the day, I am going to call it what it is. That isnt an attack at you. Saying I laugh at poor people is utterly insane. It is impossible to have an actual discussion with people like you. You default to insults at every turn. You people think you way is the only possible path.

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u/allprologue Geguri Dragons — Apr 05 '18

ok this has been fun

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