r/Competitiveoverwatch Apr 05 '18

Discussion Racism vs Racial Insensitivity in Esports

[EDIT 2] adding more explicit commentary because reading comprehension is hard.

The esports community has failed at this distinction and it has caused a lot of drama and consternation.

Racism is believing awful things about some group. [EDIT] Think of this as a measure of Character.

Racial insensitivity is saying something about a group that is offensive. [EDIT] Think of this as characterizing someones actions. You could also call this "racist actions", describing the actions a person took. I chose the phrasing to make a distinction between actions and character, not to pretend that this made the actions not racist.

[EDIT 2] The phrasing doesn't matter here and it's a shame I can't edit the title because people are caught up on this. The important distinction (again) is character judgement vs actions. Neither racist actions no racist character are something the community should tolerate. The distinction only matters in that someone who does not want to be known as racist will be willing to reform their racist or otherwise offensive behaviors when given the opportunity. That's why it's important to remember that, when it comes to Actions and Character:

These are not the same thing.

Both are incredibly important. Impact is more important than intent; it's important to be cognizant of how your actions are interpreted by the world around you. [EDIT 2] This means that being racially sensitive is a terrible thing and merits the punishments that have been getting given out.

That said, it's similarly inappropriate to always assume racism in the presence of racial insensitivity. [EDIT 2] This means that not everyone who says something awful and punishment-worth is doing so out of outright racism. Young, dumb kids say and do dumb shit for reasons above and beyond being a terrible person.

The important behavior we want to teach to players and fans is that sensitivity matters, and we undermine that by accusing everyone who makes a mistake on the sensitivity front of being immediately racist/homophobic/etc.

Racial and other insensitivity is and should continue to be punished by the Overwatch league and its constituent teams. The important result of this should be that lessons are learned, not that players are crucified.

Take a look at EQO's case - he made a mistake. For a lot of us, it's an obvious mistake but clearly not one he thought of. Both he and the Philadelphia Fusion made sincere responses to the mistake. This is a perfect example of how this shit should be handled. We as a community should also treat it as such, and while we should be harsh on players who do make these mistakes, we should also encourage these young people from various backgrounds to learn from such mistakes. Let them be examples to their fans, don't bury them in negativity.

This is really important.

[EDIT 2] For clarity since this has been all over the comments, EQO not only fucked up bigtime through his actions, he made it worse by trying to play coverup. The good response absolutely was at the behest of some authority figure in the Fusion, and that's exactly what we should expect of organizations in the league. We, as a community, should take a trust-but-verify approach - give the Fusion credit for their swift response and give EQO the benefit of the doubt that this was a lapse of judgement, but also keep an eye out that the final statement was sincere.

Take a look at XQC for another example.

In full disclosure, I don't like XQC. I don't like the majority of his fans. I'm probably naturally biased against him.

However, I don't think he's a racist, and I sympathize with the guy who is broken over being saddled with this label by the powers that be.

He made a mistake. Sure, he hasn't really shown that he understands this but at the same time, how the heck could he? He's being told he's racist which isn't something he's capable of identifying with. He doesn't share the beliefs he's being accused of, so how could he get anything from this?

He's not a racist. He made a huge fuckup and has been hounded by the community as if he's evil. He's not evil, he fucked up. He displayed poor judgement, that doesn't make him a bad person - it makes him human.

[EDIT 2] I thought this was clear from context but the important distinction is that he doesn't see him as a racist and continuing to accuse him of that worldview doesn't help anything. His actions WERE racist. You could say he was "acting racist" or "being racist" in reference to his actions if that terminology fits it better. Does he have a racist worldview? Only insofar as he clearly doesn't understand why it's important to be sensitive about how you show up publicly.

XQC isn't the first and EQO won't be the last to make these mistakes. So let's learn a lesson as a community and give these players the window to improve themselves and how they show up in public. Condemn the action, not the person - give them the window to reform. Let them acknowledge the difference between intent vs impact and use these examples to teach the community about why this matters.

Demonizing the people only undermines the opportunity for a lesson to be learned by the players and the community as a whole.

Let's maintain our standards, but enable our players to rise above careless behavior to those standards. Let's not saddle them eternally with the baggage of a mistake made of youth, ignorance, community-driven habit, and/or carelessness. Let's not make accusations of a person's character when they yet have the opportunity to grow from a poor choice.

[EDIT] This has gotten way more traction than I ever thought it would, so I'd like to clarify a few things in simple terms.

  1. The punishments were good and appropriate. I think the first reaction to negative behavior would be to stop it and punish. Only after should we look at how to rehabilitate bad behavior.

  2. The distinction I'm trying to draw here is the difference between Actions and Character. I think a redeemable Character can perform reprehensible actions. In the case someone does something reprehensible, we shouldn't shut the door on them redeeming themselves if they choose to accept responsibility and reform. That's really all I'm trying to say.

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u/reddit455 Apr 05 '18

I don't understand why this is even being talked about... adults take their punishment without argument. Blizzard has a brand to protect. True professionals do not make a distinction.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/houston-astros-yuli-gurriel-under-fire-for-racist-gesture-toward-dodgers-yu-darvish/

A Houston Astros player who made a seemingly racist gesture mocking a Los Angeles Dodgers pitcher during Game 3 of the World Series Friday night will be suspended for five games next season, Major League Baseball Commissioner Rob Manfred said Saturday.

Upon returning to the dugout after his homerun, Gurriel appeared to mock Dodgers pitcher Yu Darvish, who is Japanese, by pulling on the corner of his eyes.

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u/Lord_Giggles Apr 05 '18

Adults don't just take their punishment without argument, what sort of logic is that? If you think you're being labelled or punished unfairly, you should contest it, and most people would expect an adult to do so.

Blizzard is a bit too lose with the ways they describe player behaviour, particularly with the racism or racially disparaging thing, and it leads to longer term consequences when that stuff is then forever associated with those players.

Edit: Though I think his punishment is pretty fair when you consider the extra team stuff.

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u/reddit455 Apr 05 '18

"Adults don't just take their punishment without argument, what sort of logic is that?"

so where is the fight? all of these guys took their suspensions/fines without argument.

where is the bitching from these guys?

where is the outcry from the fans coming to the defense of these players?

where is the Player's Association/Union representation?

there isn't any, because they are adults who realized they fucked up. immature children need every rule spelled out for them.

throws soup- suspended

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2018/03/02/cavaliers-suspend-j-r-smith-for-detrimental-conduct-just-before-game-against-76ers/?utm_term=.a886dce0c51b

throws mouth guard - 50k fine

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/oct/23/stephen-curry-fine-ejection-golden-state-warriors-nba

wore socks wrong - 10k fine.

https://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/frank-gore-fined-10-500-yes-10-500-210744767--nfl.html

"Blizzard is a bit too lose with the ways they describe player behaviour,"

give me a fucking break. there is no NBA rule that explicitly prohibits the throwing of soup.

these rules are wide open. how the fuck can you assess a technical foul against the CROWD.. they have no "agreement" in place.. other than don't be a wanker.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsportsmanlike_conduct

Unsportsmanlike conduct (also called unsporting behaviour or ungentlemanly conduct or bad sportsmanship or poor sportsmanship) is a foul or offense in many sports that violates the sport's generally accepted rules of sportsmanship and participant conduct.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_foul

In basketball, a technical foul (also colloquially known as a "T" or a "Tech") is any infraction of the rules penalized as a foul which does not involve physical contact during the course of play between opposing players on the court, or is a foul by a non-player. The most common technical foul is for unsportsmanlike conduct. Technical fouls can be assessed against players, bench personnel, the entire team (often called a bench technical), or even the crowd. These fouls, and their penalties, are more serious than a personal foul, but not necessarily as serious as a flagrant foul (an ejectable offense in leagues below the NBA, and potentially so in the NBA).

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u/ChocolateMorsels Apr 05 '18

I responded to you above, but again, this is all so hilariously wrong that I feel the need to reply to this one. You're just making stuff up. The world you're describing isn't the one we live in. For any of you gamers reading that don't follow sports, athletes appeals fines, suspensions, and other penalties all the time. The fans of course get pissed at suspensions (see xqc fans). Every single major sports league has a players union (he seems to imply they don't exist?), and that players union will happily come to the defense of their player. If what you're saying here were true lawyers wouldn't have a job.

You don't know what you're talking about, stop acting like you do.

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u/Lord_Giggles Apr 06 '18

First off, we have absolutely no way of knowing if they fight the punishments because it's all internal. I believe xQc did say he did later on though, but it didn't matter because he has absolutely no power.

And athletes in mainstream leagues get fined more because they make more. A thousand dollar fine to someone worth $60 million dollars isn't exactly a big deal. You're misrepresenting the soup thing too. He threw soup at someone because he was in a shit mood, which absolutely deserves punishment.

And once again, how would we know if those punishments were contested? The players union isn't going to come out and bad mouth the whole league, they'll work internally before the punishment is handed out, or appeal afterwards through official methods.

give me a fucking break. there is no NBA rule that explicitly prohibits the throwing of soup.

I didn't say anything about rules, I said about how they describe player behaviour. I have no issue with them punishing for people acting offensively on stream or twitter, but the wording they use is unnecessarily harsh and likely career damaging.

Like the other guy said, pretty much everything you just said is wrong. Things like unions and lawyers exist pretty much entirely so adults can fight against punishments and being treated poorly. Would you like me to send you some examples of court cases where people didn't just accept their punishment, and instead hired lawyers to try to get out of it, and then continued to appeal afterwards?