Yeah if I accept one side I have to accept the other, though if it’s so n so scales to so n so who scales to so n so who scales to so n so then I’m only willing to go so far
Scaling base Fox to be able to survive one of the strongest weapons because of a training situation. Or claiming Fox could destroy the Chaos Emeralds without providing evidence if he could even do so in the first place.
Like, it's completely reasonable for him to focus more on actual in-universe feats, but there's a certain point where you need to start looking at lore to back up your claims.
I don't think there's ever been anything in the Sonic series that has actually physically damaged the Chaos Emeralds. The Master Emerald got broken (though the two who did it were Chaos and Knuckles, characters with special connection to it so strength may not even be the sole factor), but I don't think the Chaos Emeralds have ever sustained any physical damage.
Counterpoint: It's cool and also made Sonic VS Fox more interesting because it became Sonic using his versatility instead of nuking it with Super Sonic.
Let me make something clear: It wasn't just that the Chaos Emeralds were destroyed that's the problem.
The problem arises when Smash Bracket bends over backwards to try and justify this act in whatever way possible, speaking of technicalities and not even actually providing evidence that they COULD be broken in the first place.
For reference, I had to talk to an actual sonic fan to see if that was possible, but Smash Bracket just states it's possible without showing any evidence whatsoever, and only clarified his source after people complained about it.
Then, he never proved that FOX could do it. That little interaction wasn't just for animation purposes: It was Smash Bracket trying to show off a BS wincon for Fox.
Another thing you might notice is how differently the losses were treated in their episodes. In the original, Fox has a surprisingly graphic kill on Sonic, blowing his head to pieces. But when Sonic won, he just left him unconscious.
In Wolf vs Inciniroar, Wolf was scaled to a weapon that could destroy meteors or something similar. Not that he had it, but that he could take hits from it because he could do so in one of the Star Fox games side modes that are training simulations
Right??? I even brought this up to him in a livestream, and he defended himself saying something along the lines of "Training Simulations are meant to be as realistic as possible."
To this day, I'm convinced that he's biased towards Starfox. To me, it's the most reasonable explanation for how much leeway he gives characters of that series when it comes to what they can do and how their stuff works against other characters
Star Fox 64 also had a multiplayer mode where characters could tank Arwing and Landmaster attacks, and that's not getting how in Assault itself in singleplayer and multiplayer you are able to tank attack from Arwings variants, several other misc spaceships, and Wolfens.
Also the whole "multiplayer is simulation" is headcanon, it's never even once stated anywhere it's the case and the rumour spread from the fact the 3DS version of the training level for 64 LOOKS like some maps in Assault.
Little Mac is the strongest Smash Bros character, because he's the only one who has a feat against a real-life person.
Everyone else has feats either against fully fictional places, or fictional representations of real-life places (like it being set on an "Earth" identical to ours). As such, there's no way to prove those feats are actually impressive. Kirby seems strong, but you've heard the argument of "oh he's actually just 8 inches tall" right? What if every single other character is in the same boat?
Little Mac, meanwhile, canonically defeated Mike Tyson. Not a fictional representation of him either, they had to get the legal license to put him in the game (and replaced him with "Mr. Dream" in rereleases when it expired), so it's fully endorsed by Mike Tyson. Point me to another Smash Bros character who has feats against real people.
Mr dream retconning Mike Tyson out of existence means that Mr dream mantled Tyson and replaced and surpassed him, making him even stronger than Tyson himself. And Big Mac still beats him
People yapped too hard against Star Fox when under normal scaling they'd easily be Planet Level for a MFER straight up absorving spirits that held an entire planet together, SB downgraded Star Fox just as hard as Sonic (and come on, you guys really expected a show that prioritizes on-screen feats to give a series that never in fact destroyed an universe on-screen to be universal or above? Even the MFTL stuff is highly dependent on stuff like riding on top of rockets/taking the background as the character literally trasversing galaxies for some reason, and you are surprised it didn't fly)
Honestly, it's how I handle most things. If you don't demonstrate the ability to destroy a planet or at least scale to someone who can (through sheer brute force), I'm not going to buy that you're a planet-buster (or above). Lore scaling has to be backed up by something, otherwise it's just hyperbole.
And I'm never gonna touch anything involving outerversal or whatever, that shit's unquantifiable in my mindspace. I'm fine with universe-busting entities brawling (I love Dragon Ball, one of my favorite characters in the series is Beerus), but once you start getting into dimensional scaling and what-have-you I just cannot be bothered to try to interpret. At that stage, I'm just gonna go "I like this character more" and then eject myself from debate.
Honestly, it's how I handle most things. If you don't demonstrate the ability to destroy a planet or at least scale to someone who can (through sheer brute force), I'm not going to buy that you're a planet-buster (or above). Lore scaling has to be backed up by something, otherwise it's just hyperbole.
For the former, that’s ESPECIALLY true for Undertale top tiers NOT NAMED CHARA. While Chara destroyed the timeline (and likely more) via a slash, Omega Flowey did it via hax after regaining Save and Load and Asriel was going to do it after beating you, with the Hyper Goner being COMPLETELY WORTHLESS.
Physically, no. Via hax, yes. Just to be specific. Although infinite or immeasurable speed with Hyper Goner is a HUGE NO, as it was more likely for Asriel to assume that the HG would be the killing blow, and then he’d reset afterwards.
To be fair I think the argument for them atleast in my mind has always been more so that omega flowey and asriel should be equal to or above a singular soul with a lot of lv
Frisk, with they determination at its maximum, was not able to cause a single damage to Asriel, I don't know how someone could not use this to scale Asriel to be Multiversal physically.
Stats also don’t really matter, since they are provided by the narrator who’s an unreliable source of information.
And there’s no reason to assume they game would use miss to show your doing no damage when the it could just… display your attacks doing zero damage And this also runs into conflict with the other character who uses the miss text, Sans, who explicitly is dodging your attacks.
Asriel says "It's time to purge this timeline once and for all!" *uses Hyper Goner* He then talks about how, Frisk/we are special for surviving that attack, and then transforms into his final form
Hyper Goner eats the timeline
Asriel transforms in response to us surviving
its not that absurd and or difficult to put together
the little grass area we're in after the fight ends is technically not the real area we're in, we see that when, after Asriel leaves us, Frisk wakes up from a dream showing that they were passed out on the floor, meaning we weren't actually in the real physical underground, or at least, not the proper one, more like some bizarre connected dream plane place over top of it
The entire point of the boss was for Asriel to defeat you, THEN RESET the timeline, which would technically purge it. Besides, if it DID destroy the timeline, WHY is the background still there the moment the attack finished? It should’ve been an empty, black background, which would’ve shown how it deleted everything. So it was more likely that Asriel thought it would kill you, and when it didn’t, it would make sense for Asriel to think you were special to survive the attack they thought would be the winning/killing blow.
Also, as for the dream thing, I think it’s more of the fact that the other monsters thought it was a dream due to them being absorbed and stuff when it actually happened, although I COULD be wrong.
then why is the scene:
Frisk being woken up by the group within the room before the barrier, implying they were dreaming their convo with Asriel? Shouldn't they be at the grass area we find, and use to exit the underground?
Imma be real, given the circumstance it’s just as likely that Chara killed Frisk and took their soul. The black void we see is literally just us being disconnected from a vessel.
As usually when objects/locations are described/stated as be infinite they usually refer to 3-D space and don't count higher dimensional spaces.
Infinite 3-D < 4-D (thought first it must be proven that this space its at least the size of the observavle universe, as smaller pocket dimensions are usually not counted as Universal+ structure).
Dimensionality effectively adds just so much more space to something that it equates to counting every real number
In the real number line there is no next number so you can't even count it. This is the difference between countable and uncountable infinity.
To visualize it imagine 2 lines 1 made up of infinite points equating to countable numbers, 1,2,3,etc and the otherade up of every real number -2.76,π,0.241,etc
While from far away they appear the same. If you zoom n an infinite amount they will look like this
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Though infinitely small the first line has gaps, so it is only the illusion of a line. While the second line no matter how much you zoom in has no gaps.
This is the difference between countable and uncountable infinities. Which is the same as the difference between multiverse, and dimensional scaling.
(PS: dimensionality refers to spacial dimensions like up, left, forward, not dimensions as in places like "alternate dimension". Alternate dimensions are effectively just another name for universes. While spacial dimensions are very different.)
The problem is being multiversal (ie capable of destroying a multiverse) by definition means you can destroy every dimension in those multiverses, so being multidimensional SHOULD be weaker then universal. As dimensions are just aspects of a universe.
The dimensionality is generally the most important part of universe busting. With each added level of dimensionality equating to another infinite leap in power.
So a 3D universe bust is technically multidimensional as 3 is multiple dimensions. However as that's the base line people only really refer to it for 4 and above.
2D universe busting would also technically be multiple dimensional because that's 2 dimensions. But it's generally agreed that destroying a 2D universe is well below human level.
All of this is predicated on more dimensions actually equaling more spam though which isn’t true, extra dimensions is just more axis of movement in the same space, the space is always there a higher dimensionality is just the ability to move in that space.
Outside of universes that specifically mention other dimensions as other planes of existence like DC, dimensional scaling is just bullshit (and even in DC they aren’t treated as dimensions)
So everyone is sitting here going “this guys atleast 8D and nothing actually implies that 8D in that context even means anything.
Also I’d disagree with 2D < human level, this all stems from the above assumption that more dimensions = more power but again, that’s just an extra movement axis, nothing suggests that a 2d universe doesn’t have the same amount of actual space as a 3D one, it’s just an arbitrary assumption we make that it’s just better cuz we say so.
Higher dimensional refers to having a higher amount of dimensions, as in length, width, and depth, the 3 dimensions we and everything else in our universe has. However according to string theory there is more. Time being the fourth and the multiverse being the 5th (although much like how at a 90 degree angle width and length switch places that can be applied to time and the multiverse can be switched for discussion about who would win in a fight, for example destroy a multiverse but only in the present and someone who survived can go back in time and stop the event would only be 4d instead of 5d) and there are others beyond that but it’s complicated and I am not going to explain all of string theory on a Reddit comment.
In the same way you can stack an infinite amount of 2d objects on top of another and it won’t have volume (because volume is a property of 3d objects and 0 x infinity=0) and therefore no mass it can never apply force on a 3d object. So anything of a lower dimension can’t harm a higher dimension being, it would be like punching someone so hard different versions of them form other timelines felt it
Like so.
Because these are fiction characters we can ignore that they physically shouldn’t have power on a higher dimensional scale without being a being with a higher dimensionality so long as they have a feat, statement, or lore to back it up.
Effecting any finitely large quantity of 3D spaces is still less than effecting directly a quantitatively lower amount of 4D spaces, because 4D spaces definitionally have an additional axiom of space to their composition, making them effectively transcendent over 3D space.
It's especially bad on reddit from what I've seen. You can show them actual feats and if it doesn't fit their preconceived notion they'll say it shouldn't count
It really depends of WHAT feats you're talking about
For example, people will wank Heisei Godzilla over how his cells can supposedly survived a blackhole, but based on feats his durability isn't anywhere near above planetary
So what simply believe is that the Heisei era blackholes are simply not like IRL blackholes (which is further proven by White Holes existing, which in IRL are just a theory), not to add heisei blackholes works pretty differently in some stuff
Just because you show feats doesn't sometimes mean I will 100% take it as you present it to be, but I can't deny some people can be stubborn asf
Speed (the streamer) can dodge a car as well does that mean he is faster then it? No it doesn't and there's is a limit on how much faster your own speed can go if your movement speed is low
I have feats of him outrunning attacks from 5th dimension empowered sinestro and outswimming a foe who demolished swamp thing and superman if you want those instead
Sure show me feats of his base self without any type of implications out running Superman and wally in a race make sure to add the source as I want to check it's legitimacy
But as I understand it, Outerversal is a Qualitative measurement, rather than a Quantintative measurement. Whereas Universal is one infinity, Multiversal is infinite infinites, and so on, Outerversal measures something that is, by its nature, above the paradigms and conflicts of dimensionality. It doesn't matter how many nested infinites Character A presides over, because Character B exists as an outside observer of those many nested infinites, and can in fact, Log Off.
Oh yeah no that does make sense. I still think throwing around Outerversal for characters like Mario is dumb and I tend to stick to more concrete tiers, but I get what you’re saying.
Also from what I’ve seen, Hyperversal I think is just Outerversal 2 or something? I dunno.
Hyperversal is below Outerversal. It's just another measurement of dimensionality. Low Hyper is 12D, Hyper is 12D+, and High Hyper is InfinityD+ (using both countable and uncountable infinities).
An uncountable infinity is an infinity nested within an infinity. A universe is countably infinite, since it has a smallest possible value for distance/volume, that being a plank length. All real numbers is an uncountably infinite set, since numbers exist in a vacuum independant of reality, and thus could be infinitely small. You could not even begin the journey of counting all real numbers from 0 to 1, because there could be an infinite number of zeroes before the first 0,000...01.
Basically, Hyperversal works the same way MFTL+ does, in which it has a minimum, but no defined maximum. The only higher tiers are defined qualitatively, rather than quantitatively. Anything above 1000c (1000 x the speed of light) is MFTL+. Similarly, anything above 12 Dimensions, 12 nested infinities, is Hyperversal, up to any number of nested infinities, including infinite infinities. Higher categories of speed and AP are qualitative measurements, depending on facets of a given character that exceed numerical value.
Nah, Low Outer effectively means you ontologically (or to a comparable level of fundamental being) transcend any arbitrarily high (including expressions of higher infinites) measure of dimensionality.
Yeah it’s always a huge eyeroll moment when people are like “omg MUltIverSAl scALiNg” and the character only ever shows building to mountain level feats on screen. “B-But they beat this guy who’s multiversal!” and it’s someone else who never actually displays such power and is beaten by conventional means. This is the main reason I can never take lore scaling seriously, people will find literally anything to make everyone universal at minimum, and if everyone’s supposedly on that level then it stops mattering. Once you hit universal the numbers lose all meaning
Yeah don’t get me wrong, at some point you do need to have statements once yo I start getting beyond universal, but yeah so many series can do a lot more to actually show characters are as strong as they claim them to be. Say what you want about dragon ball but they do atleast show you people like Buu ripping open a hole in the fabric of reality by screaming or vegeta completely obliterating the hyperbolic time chamber I can believe these guys CAN destroy a universe.
The problem with those ‘ripping a whole in space and time’ things is that it doesn’t have any basis in physics as far as I know so I usually just put that under a hax ability.
> Does it fit with the lore and world building logic? If yes, the feat should be taken as is.
Does it make sense in lore that Scrimblo McGrimblo, who can toss around boulders, would be able to take down Shronky, who demolished a building? Yes? Okay, Scrimblo is building level.
> Does it not line up with the lore, but makes sense with real world logic? If yes, the feat should be considered unless there is a strong lore argument against it.
Scrimblo struggles to match blows with Gym Bro- They're clearly not equals in strength. But Gym Bro struggles to lift a giant tree where Scrimblo has caused Island-shaking Earthquakes with his bare hands- Scrimblo should be MUCH stronger than Gym Bro, but the lore demands he isn't.
> Does the feat neither make sense in the context of the lore or world building and also not make logical sense? Outlier, throw it out.
I can understand no Dimensional Scaling and Lore Scaling, but no Calcs?
Like, if we have two characters who had been able to make a massive crater with a punch, one done it on a rocky floor and the other done it on a metalic floor, how do you determinate which of the two have performed the better feat?
You tell me that i would have to just automatically assume that this two feats roughly the same ignoring that:
Metal like steel are far more durable than regular rock, meaning that even if the destruction its on similar scale, the steel floor would still request far more Joules of energy.
That both craters be big doesn't mean they are the same, especially if can be calculated and prove that one its bigger than the other, at example by using canon height of characters and/or objects to then use pixer scaling.
This factors while for most casuals may be irrilevant, are kinda important to consider if you really want to understand who is stronger than who.
Otherwise then you just go with assumptions based not in any form of logic but just vibe.
depends how serious the feat is treated, for example you can have a dude get thrown and destroying a wall on impact, then on another episode the same character is knock down by a wooden club, the wall feat was not really a serious one, you have to look at what is the intent of the author regarding said character power level.
Lets say this characters is intended by the author to be a regular human, just quite strong, the issue is that many powerscalers will say "look he destroyed a wall and took no damage!" if we calculate that feat dude mcdudeface durability is at least wall level, probably building tier, no regular human can harm him, which if the author gave a shit and read that statement will say thats BS.
I think lore scailing at this point is very overhated, although I believe it myself I can see some of the flaws, but people will get mad because of the interpretation of other people over a piece of media, call it a wank, and proceed to cherry-pick anti-feats for characters they don't like and statements for characters they like.
I know, I recognise the problem, but powerscailing is inconsistent in 90% of all media imo, I understand why people wouldn't buy lore scailing, but a lot of times people get mad because not everyone disagree with it, or a lot of times it's just bias, we should just consider as two separate scailings.
I dunno he fought a guy who deleted an entire seemingly infinite pocket dimension and reduced it to a white void, and won… all of this on screen, the same guy who on screen became a Kaiju statue and started throwing like solar systems and shit at him. I could buy UNI+ for that just from on screen feats alone
I think calcs can be used if they're meant to define how strong a feat is, like shaking a universe or something. It just depends on how weird the feat is.
I have vs debating to thank for getting me into so many series I would have either never touched or never heard of. For example, why am I playing Hyper Light Drifter and Dead Cells, because I want a better idea of who wins Drifter vs Beheaded
I feel like we have to take power scaling differently.
Feats
Scaling.
If someone is said to be on the same level of someone else, if their feats so not reflect this, then it’s a no go. If it’s reasonable sure but it’s usually not.
(Gorro being the same speed of Kabal in machamp vs Goro)
Unless I open a book and the characters punch me in the face then they're not Outerversal. Characters from Live theatrical stories have better claim to outerversal than written/ drawn characters because they exist by even to a limited power, have a physical pressence in real life
That's what proper scaling is imo. Only proper feats and plausable statements from reliable sources that don't contradict the established limits and powersystems.
Me with Star Wars powerscalers. I do not care that Darth Sidius destroyed planets with just Force or smth in some ancient comic. If it wasn’t shown or mentioned in movies or shows, I do not care.
Fun Fact: This is a logical fallacy! The argument from incredulity fallacy, where you argue against evidence by simply not believing it. It doesn't prove your view or disprove the others and dages your argument
Saying "he isn't that strong, that doesn't feel right" is a bad argument
Therfore, this wouldn't be a good thing to use in SERIOUS debating, Verus or otherwise
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u/InterestingRatio8218 Mr. Fantastic vs Mr. Terrific Enjoyer May 10 '25
That is unless the lore scaling and dimensional scaling works in my favour. Then it’s great and fine.