That didn't stop obito and madara from getting ten tails though, and cosmic garou's power up is permanent, reason he lost it is because saitama has a special ability that let's him punch god's influence
The difference is that Obito can Simon the Ten Tales by himself without some god granting him it so it makes sense for him to be able to have it at his beck and call unlike the cosmic form which was given to Garou from god and he doesn’t keep it
No idea, but even then, the giant mutant arms would be a massive target for Kira to target, and with them being similar, if not Kira being faster in terms of speed, he could potentially win if that were to happen. However, that’s a specific scenario and Shigaraki could just touch the ground and decay everything lol.
The World should also technically have a durability bypass option. Remember that The World and Star Platinum are considered the same stand, and Star Platinum phased its arm through both Jotaro and Joseph’s chest to restart their hearts at the end of the part. If Star Platinum can do it, I don’t see a particular reason as to why DIO/The World couldn’t.
while i did take it into consideration, i don’t think it’s fair to give The World that ability, DIO never shows the ability to phase his stand through things like Jotaro. It seems to be an ability exclusive to Star Platinum (like Star Finger or his binocular ability)
While that’s pretty fair, I don’t believe theres any reason why you couldn’t allow DIO Jotaros abilities, no? The Star Finger and enhanced perception could also be attributed to The World, but I do understand what you mean and it wouldn’t make sense giving it to DIO
Stands phasing through is an ability of every stand, due to them being an eternal power (besides those who inhabit the physical objects, like Wheel Of Fortune, Anubis, and Aqua Necklace).
For example, earlier in part 3, Hol Horse's Emperor is shown phasing through his arm.
Thought that it might need more concentration to pull it off successfully, similar to shrinking and star finger
Diver Down is more about manipulation of the stand inside of the object that it dives in/hitting through it. To me, it's more of an evolution/stronger version of phasing that all of the stands have
I personally think mountain level Dio (or rather the sun calc that gets him there) is very flawed but other than that I agree with most things here except imo Voldemort; though I’ll save that for another time because I think the debate is actually more interesting than people give it credit for and deserves a more thorough post. (Though public perception of HP scaling is kind of a mess at the moment since it’s essentially being handled by people who either A. Wank the verse, or B. Downplay it to oblivion, which honestly might require a post of its own as well)
Overall, very well made!
Edit: Forgot to mention 2 other things; Muzan actually has a large town high ends he scales to via shaking and almost tearing apart the infinity castle (The Muzan vs Sukuna blog elaborates on this, highly recommend it)
The other thing (and admittedly I don’t have the scan with me so feel free to fact check me) but I heard Dio using his other abilities like hypnotizing and freezing are considered out of character since it was apparently after he attains the world, he believes it’s the only thing he will ever need going forward
I disagree with Dio beating Mahito. The World might be able to harm Mahito's soul, but he still 80 times weaker. He definitely wouldn't be able to kill Mahito within a single time stop. All Mahito has to do is touch Dio or the World once.
Mahito has too many ways to get in a position to use idle transfiguration. He can use his clones or transfigured humans to draw Dio's fire or mutate his body in a way where a single hit unavoidable. Dio wouldn't know that single touch would one shot him, he wouldn't avoid it like the plague. All of this is assuming he doesn't immediately use domain expansion after the initial time stop.
It's pretty much the Dio vs Alucard debate if Alucard could see and hurt the World and had a move that allows him to instantaneously win the match.
I mean, given Dio's large FTL+ speed advantage (that scales to combat speed), plus his 9 second time stop, means you could genuinely argue that The World can deliver enough punches in 9 seconds at FTL speeds to get an AP value that would harm Mahito. This is all without mentioning that, with upper values, Dio has the AP edge at Mountain vs Large Town in Mahito's base, so Dio could end the fight in one rush before Mahito can become a real threat
Another thing, I feel like Dio is more likely to avoid Mahito than you'd think. Dio is only so cocky because he's a master at knowing stands and definitely knows that he's above the Crusaders. Against Mahito, he's facing an opponent with a power system he's never seen before with abilities he can't predict, he's 100% gonna play it safe imo.
Cursed spirits and Stands are equalized in this scenario in terms of functionality, but that doesn't mean that Dio is going to see a person with powers he's never seen before and assume it's a stand. You have to remember, Dio studied stands for years now, he pretty much knows all of the forms a stand could take (not that he knows every stand, just what they could encompass), he's going to be able to tell that Mahito is nothing like what he knows.
Dio doesn't throw barrages in stopped time because he knows he's superior to everyone around him aside from Jotaro, an assurance he wouldn't have with Mahito.
Also, if we're gonna assume that Dio isn't gonna take a new never-before-seen threat seriously, then he's most likely to spam time stop like he did with Polnareff, which gives Mahito a lot less chances to work with while Dio has more time to realize "oh fuck, this guy is actually tough". And again, OP gave Dio the AP edge in base by a good margin
I don't think Dio would assume Mahito doesn't have or isn't a stand. Stands are constantly evolving and changing it would be ridiculously regressive for Dio to assume something so similar to a stand isn't one.
Assuming they're both dicking around for like the first minute Mahito would have his chances to hurt Dio since the world does have a cooldown. Also Mahito's one with AP advantage, not dio.
One, being connected to Jonathan’s body inherently makes him aware of the soul, hence him using Jonathan’s stand and needing more Joestar blood to actually beat it back for his own strength to return.
Two, The World can attack with impunity. One timestop MIGHT not kill him (arguable, The World DOES do a lot of punches) but DIO can realistically use it as much as he wants like he did against Polnareff. I also think this feat is really worth calling out: DIO on his own is able to match Star Platinum in power and speed without the use of The World after drinking Joseph’s blood, which is best seen in the manga during the Road Roller scene. I think the anime added The World’s elbows in but it’s nowhere to be seen in the manga. In other words, DIO can technically double his attack speed if he wants to.
And to respond to one of the replies… We only see DIO going for single fatal hits when they’re painfully obviously fatal. Otherwise, we actually don’t see how DIO normally uses timestop a lot against people without immunity or defense. He always plays with Polnareff, he didn’t need more than one punch to obviously fatally wound Kakyoin, and then he couldn’t approach Jotaro and Joseph safely without a careful approach in timestop. And we DO see him use a Stand Rush on Jotaro when he knows that his timestop duration has gotten disgustingly long. In a hypothetical scenario where he punches Mahito in timestop, it wouldn’t be hard to see the lack of damage it actually does and just keep hitting. Keep in mind too that Mahito can’t change the shape of his soul during it, so there’s no strange morphing to trick DIO into thinking otherwise.
That's interesting argument, but I don't think that has any bearing on whether or not Mahito could kill him with idle transfiguration. I think you might be able to make an argument that If Mahito touched Dio's body that he would kill Jonathan's stand and body which still isn't good for Dio at all.
The World does have a cooldown so he can't spam it in the traditional sense. If Dio put in the effort hitting Mahito himself it would do zero damage. He can't harm the soul and Dio isn't strong enough to compensate.
True, but Dio is still 80 times weaker than Mahito. I don't think he'd be able to do any real damage just because he can punch a lot. Dio is pretty analytical so he may just stop hitting Mahito and try to decipher any weaknesses instead.
Idle Transfiguration is Mahito’s win con, yeah, but landing it is even more difficult than DIO doing damage considering the massive difference in speed on top of timestop and stands like The World giving its user increased perception on top of their already high perception. He just physically can’t land it within reason similar to how he could never hit Todo. And the argument with Jonathan’s body was just to support his awareness of the soul would mean he could harm Mahito, even without The World.
It’s never been stated there was a cooldown to his timestop and he uses it multiple times in succession without needing to shout out “The World” on several occassions (see Polnareff trying to walk up stairs). And I think it’s worth saying again that DIO, his own body, and The World are relatively close in both striking power and attack speed. He is then given 9 seconds to punch at the speed of light in timestop with both The World and himself to close a relatively small 80x difference in power that he can effectively use as much as he wants, whenever he wants. It wouldn’t be difficult to notice that he is dealing SOME damage and come to the conclusion that he just needs to hit harder and more often.
I also think that this is a point really worth considering: The difference in stamina is massive. Being a vampire, DIO just doesn’t get tired while Mahito is confined to his cursed energy pool. It’s large but it was only able to last him a few hours in Shibuya. Even people without awareness of the soul can technically kill Mahito by forcing him to use up his cursed energy, as rare as that is.
Dio himself isn't aware of the soul in a sense that would allow him to hurt Mahito. Jonathan's body was rejecting him, not his soul. He wouldn't be able to use Jonathan's stand if it was fighting him. Dio himself can't harm stands so he shouldn't be able to harm Mahito.
If Mahito gets caught in a stand barrage outside of stopped time then he'd definitely be able to touch the World once.
Jotaro states that Star Palatium has a cooldown. The World and Star Platnium are the same type of stand, just like how Hermit purple and Jonathan's stand are. If Dio didn't have a cooldown he wouldn't have needed a car to catch up to Joseph and Kakyoin.
80 times gap in power isn't relatively small by any means. Its like a mouse trying to kill a human with it's fists, but scaled up so the difference in power is even greater.
I think It'd be really hard for Dio to identify actual damage on Mahito since he'd almost immediately heal from what was dealt to him. Dio would likely prob and try to identify any possible weakness, he may also want to test how strong Mahito is like with what he did with Jotaro.
Dio may take the edge in stamina but I doubt I would get to a point were it be a problem for Mahito. Given how massive his cursed energy pool is and that Black Flash completely refreshes it. I think Mahito running out of energy would have just about as much barring as the sun coming up a killing Dio.
As shown by Yuji, you don’t need direct awareness of the soul. Even as little as your body becoming accustomed to “the border between them” by having two souls inside one vessel is enough to damage Mahito. It likely has nothing to do with accepting or rejecting, only the body naturally becoming accustomed to it like muscle memory.
As for cooldown… Yeah, I concede on that. But it’s a very short one that is almost irrelevant considering their even greater difference in speed. Even a rat can kill a human if given enough time. Especially when that rat gets 9 seconds to bite likely hundreds of times each second and the human has nearly no chance at catching the rat. DIO testing strength would also just result in “what would happen if I punched you more” since his usual tests are specifically to if they have something that can defend against him timestop.
I also think it’s worth pointing out that DIO has a habit of just cutting off his limbs when they’re obviously (his head with Hamon), similar to Todo. If that happens, Mahito outright loses since he loses the sense of surprise with Idol Transfiguration and DIO would play cautiously. Mahito is just too slow to land an effective hit while DIO can land his freely.
Also, we do literally see Mahito run out of energy before the end of the night. Even with two Black Flashes. While Mahito would probably take a different approach against DIO where he uses less energy, he also probably wouldn’t land a Black Flash (and if there is a situation where he can, it’s safer to just go for Idol Trasnfiguration). He wouldn’t know to outlast until morning either unless DIO just says “I am ultimate vampire with stand” and Mahito knows what a vampire is (he probably does, but who knows). And that would be a night filled to the brim with constant timestops that might just kill him anyways.
Ah, thats what you were saying. That's my bad. I don't think it would apply here though. Dio is effectively puppeting Jonathan's corpse and what little life still there (Just like Kenjaku actually). When Dio full merges with it we don't see Jonathan's stand or any sign he's present there at all. Granted we don't really have any way know for sure but I think Dio would comment on it if he was.
I'm not talking about a rat biting, I'm talking about a rat punching. Rodent jaws are strong. I really don't know how else to put how much stronger Mahito is into words. But Mahito would definitely survive the timestop and immediately heal from it. the few seconds of Dio's cooldown is still more than enough time for Mahito to rush in and touch or hit the world assuming he doesn't domain expanison in that moment and win. Keep in mind it's not just Mahito hes dealing with, it's his clones and the thousands of transfigured humans he has on him. Dio has a lot more to consider and focus on to just go I'm gonna punch you more.
That might save him, but it would leave him crippled. He can't just regrow limbs on a whim, and theres absolutely no way Mahito doesn't take the arm and do some gross thing with it. We also don't know how that effects his stand since hes avoided doing it to himself in part 3 and we don't see what it looks like when it does happen to him.
That was Mahito's goal wouldn't be "wait until morning til the sun comes up" It'd be more like "fortify and catch Dio in a bad spot." Or just catch Dio in his domain expansion in the chaos and win immediately.
DIO on his own is able to match Star Platinum in power and speed without the use of The World after drinking Joseph’s blood, which is best seen in the manga during the Road Roller scene. I think the anime added The World’s elbows in but it’s nowhere to be seen in the manga. In other words, DIO can technically double his attack speed if he wants to.
This one’s iffy to me considering Star Platinum quite literally one-shotted The World shortly after, he also caught Jotaro by surprise and used the Road Roller as a buffer (which CAN be argued as an anti-feat for both if you’re a real stickler)
Three, Dio's timestop grows in duration over time at a rate of roughly two seconds every time he uses it as High Dio, with the upper limit hypothesized by Dio himself to be either a minute or an entire hour, so in a prolonged fight the timestop could cross the statgap.
What does that do for him? The second it ends hes dead. Mahito's not gonna wait around to use if it gets to a point where Dio is starting to hurt him, So he wouldn't be able to kill Mahito with that extra two seconds he gained from it last time.
Dio can't break out either. Yuji only broke it because he was attacking from the outside where it was fortified.
Pretty sure that’s not what’s happening in that scene. DIO’s 9 seconds are up and then he gets two more seconds before he’s suddenly frozen in time himself. I’m prety sure it was just Jotaro stopping time directly after DIO was finished with his 9 seconds. Jotaro’s limit of moving in another person’s timestop was 2 seconds, so it working both ways would make sense.
Since gravity can effect time, and we know the world time stop is affected by gravity thanks to steel ball run, Kenny can probably just get through time stop.
If it's regular DIO ? Probably but with high as fuck difficulty, although to be honest, while I'm convinced that most of these opponent can't beat DIO, I don't know how he can kill some of them either.
Take Voldemort for example, how is DIO going to bypass the whole issue with the Horcruxes ? With those still active, Voldy is pretty much immortal and I'm pretty sure DIO can't target someone's soul.
Can Voldy kill DIO ? Most likely not, too fast, too strong, he can't do it, but given that DIO attacks only with physical damages, can he even kill Voldemort ?
I guess you could argue that DIO can hypnotize Voldemort to make him reveal the secret of his immortality and the location of the Horcruxes but then Voldemort is stated to be an expert at Legilimency, basically mind control magic, meaning he's both proficient at using AND resisting mind control so even then you can argue that Voldemort can just resist hypnosis.
Same reasonning for the likes of Mahito or Sukuna, they're curses ! Can DIO even kill them regardless of wether they can kill him or not ?
Now Heaven Ascencion DIO on the other hand... He basically wipes the floor with that entire matchup but regular DIO is tricky, if it weren't for the various haxes of these characters (curses, horcruxes) that allow them to survive physical attacks, I'd say DIO would dominate, but with them, I'd say DIO unfortunately can't win this gauntlet.
In theory yes but outstating is useless in this case if he literally lacks the tools to kill them. It's not about powers, it's about haxes and options.
Take the Voldemort example, DIO can theoratically kill a full-powered Voldemort at the peak of his power, but he would need to:
Hypnotize Voldy.
Ask him about the source of his immortality.
Ask him about the location of each Horcruxes.
Go on a long-ass sidequest to collect them all.
Destroy them (I'm assuming DIO's raw power alone is enough to destroy them without the need for special tools and artifacts like the sword of Godric or the Basilisk's fang).
And then finally kill Voldy.
All while maintaining control over him which is very unlikely given that, again, Voldy can resist mind control, DIO's flesh buds could I guess work given that their control is biological, not magical so Tom's resistance to mind control likely wouldn't work on a vampiric parasite in his brain.
Either that or you can argue that DIO's raw power alone is enough to destroy Voldemort's physical body which isn't a "death" but would still count as a win.
Similarly for Sukuna and Mahito, DIO could, theoratically, hit them so hard it send their asses to space but would that really count as "winning" against them if they're just frozen in space ?
I get your point but for me it's a coin toss, if you remove their haxes that allow them to be functionnaly immortal then yeah DIO wins this gauntlet no issue, but since we're obviously gonna have to let them keep these haxes, well, it's a bit more complicated already.
Yeah I get what you mean, it's just that to me, haxes and the technical details of a character's abilities are just as important, if not more important, than raw stats, yes raw stats can sometime allow a character to just ignore whatever hax his opponent has, see meme bellow:
But the opposite can also happen, haxes can compensate and ignore a stat disadvantage.
For example, since voldemort is involved in this post, a really unfair matchup I thought about a while ago was Voldemort vs Zeleph from Fairy Tail and even without the raw stat difference, Zeleph's power and dominion over death and even time itself gave him a stronger, more reliable type of immortality than Voldemort, and he could also bypass the horcruxes's protection altogether with Ankseram's Curse of Contradiction.
Sure, Zeleph's stat difference helped him a lot but the real ace in the hole, the real wincon was this curse because he would not be able to kill Voldemort without it, it would be a tie.
Horcruxes don’t mean anything in DB. They just keep him from STAYING dead, but if he dies, then he can’t fight unless someone brings him back, so at that point, DIO wins.
Putting Sukuna anywhere above the mach 3-10 range is just pure wank, and we don't even know what solidly caused the earthquake, its as entirely possible it was a mix of the seals being released and the literal EARTHQUAKE CAUSING CURSES KENJAKU HAS, not just Gojo's raw might, especially since it's supposed to be thematic and not representative of his strength.
Even without EM Waves, Black Flash calcs and the feat of Sukuna launching debris up at Jacob's Ladder both put Sukuna wayyyyy above Mach 10. Sure, not lightspeed, but higher than Mach 10 for sure
Plus even without the Earthquake feat, Gojo has the statement of being able to power a country and Yorozu has their Liquid Perfect Sphere feat
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u/strangetransmissions DIO vs Sukuna fan May 12 '25
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As Tenko Shimura and Tomura Shigaraki I’ve Got One Hope…