I specifically said I wasn't arguing for the other three, because while the arguments for them being so are generally bad, I don't know enough about say, sonic to say otherwise.
But yeah, mario and especially joker are definitely not cosmic. Every bad assumption that they are comes down to simple misunderstandings and ignoring most of their plots.
What about them. They aren't especially strong in those other than launching capabilities, which in worlds like this is always way higher than actual ability to damage things.
Joker: SMT cosmology since it's the same as in Persona
Cosmology doesn't mean anything without an actual description of how it makes characters stronger. And no one who is a long term smt fan is confused about the fact that the characters aren't meant to be especially strong in combat. It's a post apocalyptic series about scrounging for guns in the trash, it's really not what some people imagine it being.
Fighting someone who can tear apart reality doesn't de facto imply any given scale. It's a pretty normal fantasy trope, especially in gaming, for a final opponent to have some form of wide scope ability that their battle stats do not scale to, and hence you don't need to be on the level of the wide scope ability to beat them. In fact, most abilities beyond a certain level in fiction are like this. If people try interpreting everything like its dragonball where everything is battle stars it's not going to make sense..
Well, Kirby defeated Magalor, who collapsed 15 to 16 universes, while Bayonetta took down Singularity Chaos and Singularity Balance simultaneously, beings who threatened the multiverse with their power
That goes back to the initial issue. Neither of those clarify their battle stats without context because that's generally not how universal destruction works.
Look at the chronicles of Narnia from before gaming even existed. Peter can survive against jadis in a direct fight who destroyed a universe. And he is... human level. Because the universe destroying magic wasn't what was being used for the fight.
He's lying about Sonic and Mario being the same too. Nether of them are cosmic and Sonic has significantly higher stats than Mario. Mario doesn't even have the best stats in his own verse.
Both of those are gish gallops of pretty bad arguments. Counting fighting culex (has literally no feats lol), the power stars in 64 (nothing implies they were used for anything except making the worlds) is a bunch of attempts to extrapolate stats from indirect stuff used. Now sure, there are situations where some of them have magic that cns affect worlds, but none of them are particularly strong in a direct fight.
...Oh wait, he walks around slowly and breaths fire. He doesn't even use any magic, and there's no indication he is any different from base. Funny how it works when you look at the game instead of making stuff up.
Well, no, he and his whole team lost that fight then were saved by outside help. Sinful shell isn't an ability that he can just do whenever, it's because the entire world was cheering for him in that moment.
That aside, the entity he fought wasn't actually physically all that strong. They literally say twice before the fight that it's durability likely only scales to size lol. The fact that it can bridge the universes is intrinsic to the role of administrator, it's not a strength level.
Okay? KRATOS is literally low complex Multiversal now cuz of lore from the books, Dante is universal (also Bayonetta isn't multiversal she's universal), and then theirs others. Like im not saying they'd win but your wanking the smash crew
Go by the lore and books bud, their a more accurate depiction of Kratos and that's what death battle used, Don't get snarky with over pedantic shit, by your logic Sonic gets hit by a robotic bug therefore metal bug level sonic, see the dumb shittery of that?
He said he didnât know what it meant. More than likely that he didnât understand the question and what it meant since it wasnât really explained well by the other person
Sonic dogwalks over Kratos as he literally fought and defeated many eldritch and god-like beings like Solaris, Time Eater, Dark Gaia, The End, to name a few. Plus, he has immeasurable speed, faster than anyone Kratos has ever fought, even with lore scaling.
Dante is also nothing but small potatoes for Sonic, with the only thing Dante has going for him being his large arsenal, and that's about it.
I didn't even mention sonic also Archie sonic is op as fuck but game sonic (which is the one smash uses) generally caps out at Universal to multiversal, also Kratos ALSO gets mftl scaling speed btw so he isn't exactly slow
Also all the guys you mentioned are universal and a bit higher and their not eldritch i don't think you know what that term actually means
Game Sonic is more powerful than you think. Especially considering that Sonic's cosmology far exceeds that of God of War and has consistently fought and defeated beings who were going to destroy all of it in its entirety
Only if you go by the gotw games, if you include the books it scales to complex multiversal, also also i never said Sonic isn't strong but the game universe scales much lower than the comics
Hermes was moving at the speed of light and Kratos caught him. Devs said that if we were playing as Kratosâ lore speed then the games would be unplayable because they move that fast with that much force in the fights
The Sonic thats used in smash is from the games where he's universal at best, game sonic has literally no multiversal feats (comic Sonic DOES keep in mind, Kirby is multiversal (like Kratos whos low complex Multiversal from lore and books also death battle itself used said sources), Joker is outer so he does win out (that's not even debatable)
Yeah Dante from devil may cry featuring Dante from Devil May Cry is universal and higher honestly. But El Donte the Dante from DmC Devil may cry who play station all stars uses is at best city level with absolutely nothing getting him higher. As for Mario is stuff like galaxy paper Mario from what I heard
I think you're downplaying how powerful SMT gods are.
For example Shiva in SMT V was stated to have enough power to destroy the universe.
In Nocturne, Kagasuchi has the power to rewrite reality.
In SMT V again Lucifer beat YHVH, who was currently controlling the entire universe(maybe multiverse?), absorbed his power and got even stronger than him.
These aforementioned gods transcend and manipulate concepts and arenât even the peak of SMTâs power chain, so yes Iâd consider it less than that. Do you mind sending me a page on her? Iâd like to give it a read, because if the verse really did get to SMT levels Iâm sure Iâd hear about it more often.
Okay, for some reason sheâs only claimed at multiversalâŚ
But either way 1v1 she solos Joker because all the friendship in the world doesnât save you from a black hole, that shit takes gravity manipulation which isnât exactly in his toolshed (which even without it is still a big ass shed)
He doesnât exactly need to contend with black holes when heâs at bare minimum billions of times faster than light, and if scaling him higher via SMT he has Immeasurable speed. Seeing as Jokerâs also tanked attacks that eclipsed Nebulas on the low end and tanked attacks from Outer level entities at the high end, a black hole which can range from planetary to galaxy level really should not be any semblance of an issue to him.
âŚokay at this point powerscaling has officially become bullshit
If Joker is really outer, this means that the average human in Persona is also outer, as every single romance option (including ones that arenât his team) can beat the shit out of him
Hell, fucking outerversal ordinary cops
Furthermore, if he has âimmesurable speedâ why the fuck does he drive places in Strikers? He can just run there in 0.00001 seconds anyways!
Honestly the only survivor of Smash vs PSAS would be Kat (Gravity Rush scaling got insane after she casually beat the actual devil and a god of electricity)
This single comment singlehandely reminds me why I love powerscaling so much. Just the mental image of Mario, of all people, Mario, huffing and turning every single enemy of smash bros into ash is funny as shit. Even more so when I know that Mario, with his canon scaling, could just straight up do that. It reminds me of those old looney tunes gags where there's a bunch of tiny people fighting, then a big guy comes and just blows them all away.
I used to think All Stars kinda easily beat Smash Bros. But now? Ion. I feel like Smash Broâs should realistically body most of them. Idk. Maybe All Stars has a chance?..
The only Playstation Allstar characters that can actually do anything are Zeus, Kratos, Sackboy, Dante, Toro, and I think Kat and Emmett Graves. The rest are basically just in the way or fodder due to being humans with powers but nothing too crazyâŚ
Sackboy and Toro are realistically the only characters who can face the top tiers in Smash.
Doubt they would win though even if they were powerful enough due to the odds against them and multitude of powers theyâd be facing.
when rosalina just resets the universe using her millions of lumas, knowing it'll reset and she'll gain everything back [black hole style] and they all die:
except that's what she canonically does in the end of galaxy. the lumas energy [each one is said to become a new galaxy] launch into a blackhole and reset the universe, in which rosalina is able to not only manifest herself WHILE it's recreating around her and talk to mario about how the cycle doesn't repeat.
and as a lady with space powers she could easily create a black hole to do the same thing over again.
Funny cause thatâs not what happened at all the lumas only got into the black hole so that they could be reborn and Rosalina only showed to explain how the cycle works to Mario and she never showed that she can create black holes she only showed to create portals
To be fair, SSBU crew have a lot more experience in fighting games. PlayStation All Stars only had one game on two systems. Even then the characters in SSBU have a lot more experience since on average they have more games apeice.
There is only two series that cross over to both and that is Tekken and Metal Gear.
188
u/Hot_Anywhere_1233 Jetstream Sam vs Kisame enjoyer May 18 '25
Raiden watching as his adoptive Uncle gets torn in half by a stuffed puppet