Community Debate Stats Results: Frieza vs Palpatine (Dragon Ball vs Star War Disney/Legends)

[u/DatKidZ364]

[u/SoakedSun24]

For those who’re like “But Frieza’s stronger and faster! Bro could just nuke the planet! Palpatine needed the death star to do that, this is a total stomp!”

Yes, Frieza takes raw power and if Palpatine wasn’t linked up to the dark side, he probably would just lose. However raw stats have never been debate enders. Frieza may outmuscle literally everyone in Palpatines army, but he doesn’t have any resistance to his soul being attacked directly, his life force being stolen oe his neck just outright being snapped. With everything Palpatine has, it’s legitimately an easier time for him as with his better mind tampering he’d be able to deduce what Frieza can and would try, and capitalize off that alone. If Palpatine really was just a feeble old man there would be NO debate, but he does have tricks up his sleeve that should prove how and why Friezas raw stats don’t matter in the long run

[u/Nin_Saber → u/SoakedSun24]

his neck just outright being snapped

For Palpatine to snap Frieza's neck, you'd have to argue what Palpatine can telekinetically move is stronger than Frieza's own physical strength. Even a Rancor with a reinforced throat resisted being choked by Vader himself.

Also, Frieza should have some resistance to soul destruction via taking destruction energy which attacks the body and soul.

[u/BCCBATTLES → u/Nin_Saber]

I DO agree with this, cause you could just argue Frieza's too strong with his own telekinesis to be neck snapped, what Palpatine COULD do is potentially drain Frieza to a point where he is capable to do so, but he'd likely go for his easier options.

[u/SoakedSun24 → u/Nin_Saber]

The hakai thing is silly because it’s still a type of ki energy, which is not what force lightning is. If you can argue force lightning is life energy then you can POTENTIALLY argue it. Potentially being the keyword.

[u/Nin_Saber → u/SoakedSun24]

But it's still a resistance Frieza should have since it's one that's actually displayed. I do agree that the "ki energy negs any hax from someone weaker" in debates is silly but if there's a hax that a dragon ball character is explicitly shown resisting than it should be fair game. I think the main potent ability of Palpatine's that could work is life drain but I feel most of his other options either don't really cut it or only work is Frieza is practically on his death bed already from exhaustion anyway.

[u/BCCBATTLES → u/Nin_Saber]

I can agree with destroying his soul not potentially working, really the options I'd say he'd have a better time with are life draining like you mentioned, information manipulation via just violently ripping it out of his head, and matter manipulation.

[u/Nin_Saber → u/BCCBATTLES]

Do you mean information manipulation as in reading his mind and thoughts?

[u/BCCBATTLES → u/Nin_Saber]

No, but it is still something he can do, I mean LITERALLY ripping information out of his head, potentially leaving him psychologically damaged, such a thing is quite frankly unlike anything we've seen in Dragon Ball, and part of the reason I think Palpatine would really just outhax Frieza, even with lower physical stats.

[u/SoakedSun24 → u/Nin_Saber]

And thats the thing. Frieza is having to not only fight Palpatine, but Vader as well. Not to mention Frieza operates on a ki pool as well, using his energy in a fight while Palpatine is actively pulling it outta him would screw him up really badly. I think a DB character showing resistance to something is fair for a vs argument, thats true, but then you gotta remember that not everything can be compared 1-1. Its like saying Goku can move through skipped time or stopped time because of the hit fight, when this was because of Gokus ki. Remember Guldo? He could also stop time, but nobody was able to push through it because it wasn’t a Ki ability. You see what im getting at?

[u/Nin_Saber → u/SoakedSun24]

Vader is relevant in dealing with the Frieza Force itself but not Frieza. Any attack from Frieza with even the slightest effort into it will kill Vader and he lacks the ability to keep fighting after his body being destroyed that Palpatine has.

I do agree with your point about it not being fully 1-1, but I feel it should be sufficient in this case. Frieza takes destruction energy directly which deletes the soul. I don't think the full extent of Palpatine's Force Lightning is exactly "I delete your soul entirely with one zap" to my knowledge. So I feel Frieza's resistance should be enough to at least resist it for a notable amount of time before being vulnerable to it.

[u/SoakedSun24 → u/Nin_Saber]

Vader is relevant in dealing with the Frieza Force itself but not Frieza. Any attack from Frieza with even the slightest effort into it will kill Vader and he lacks the ability to keep fighting after his body being destroyed that Palpatine has.

Alright thats true, but the point still stands I feel. Its another thing Frieza has to deal with anyway.

The hakai thing is still pretty flawed though. DBS is stupid because Frieza was in his golden form when he stopped it, and he probably would not immediately transform against someone who seems to be insanely weaker than him. Remember he only went Black because he needed to take Goku and Vegeta down immediately. The fact that Palpatine can immediately just read Friezas thoughts IMO would help against Frieza immediately powering up, but I do understand what you’re saying and I suppose its a valid argument regardless

[u/SoakedSun24 → u/Nin_Saber]

True, but remember that Palpatine can just read someones mind outright, knowing what Frieza can and will pull before he tries it. Yes, thats an ability he has, and he has multiplie different types of mind control that Frieza hasnt seen, it’s disingenuous to argue “Frieza just outmuscles lol GG EZ”

[u/Nin_Saber → u/SoakedSun24]

I wasn't arguing he'd outmuscle everything Palpatine has. I was just saying that snapping Frieza's neck like he's a normal person for an ez win is not really a practical option.

[u/SoakedSun24 → u/Nin_Saber]

I know, id thought id argue it mostly because of how people seem to be under the influence that Frieza can just outmuscle Palpatine that way which he honestly shouldn’t. My apologies if I came off pretentious. Even then though, Palpatine isnt lacking in raw options, whether its attacking Friezas soul with force lightning, stealing his energy (which would work as Frieza also runs off of a ki pool) or some third thing I’m forgetting.

[u/Jstin8 → u/SoakedSun24]

No, because ALL of this, ALL OF IT, requires Palpatine to be fast enough to even attempt any of this. And even the most conservative calcs for DBS speed will far far outdo Star Wars. So freeza does just speed blitz and kill Palpatine before he can attempt literally anything and he dies horribly

[u/BCCBATTLES → u/Jstin8]

But it does NOT. Because his hax DOESN'T rely on speed, he lives on even after his physical body is destroyed as a nexus of the Dark Side, still being able to use his force abilities. Stuff like Matter and Information manipulation, Dragon Ball characters can resist mind CONTROL and their emotions getting changed, and keep fighting after transmutation, but Palpatine has all DIFFERENT kinds of mind manipulation to even just violently ripping information out of your head, as well as MATTER manipulation. He has such a diverse range of very specific abilities, it's no surprise Frieza doesn't have notable resistance to a lot of them. That includes stuff we KNOW a higher power level doesn't counter, like draining energy.

Seriously, I feel like most of the criticisms here come from a lack of even knowing what Legends Palpatine can ACTUALLY do.

[u/Nin_Saber → u/BCCBATTLES]

How does Papatine's revival through clone bodies work exactly. If his physical body is destroyed, does Palpatine's spirit show itself?

[u/BCCBATTLES → u/Nin_Saber]

Han exist long after his physical body is destroyed as living energy, the issue IS that he still has incorporeality, and by him being able to still use his force abilities, he can hide his presence, as well as having spatial Manipulation (After the death of his physical body, he became a seething nexus of Dark Side energy that could tear apart the fabric of space and devour everything in his vicinity).

[u/Jstin8 → u/BCCBATTLES]

DB characters can and have fought ghosts before, see Kid Buu for the most blatant example. Palpatine just dies before any notable hax comes into play. Even if I entertained such comical notions like information manipulation.

Good lord with a thread like this its becoming easier to understand how folks convinced themselves Miles was gonna beat Deku lmao

[u/BCCBATTLES → u/Jstin8]

I'm not saying that's not a potential argument, hard to say tbh, considering Palpatine is a Dark Side Nexus on top of being a ghost, but Palpatine would STILL have ways of affecting Frieza, I don't see how it's a comical notion at all when Frieza just outright DOESN'T have resistance to a great majority of what Palpatine can do.

[u/Jstin8 → u/BCCBATTLES]

I agree that Freeza isnt gonna resist the hax man that Palpatine is, however that doesnt ultimately matter if Palpatine dies before he can effectively use his superior hax on Freeza.

Take one look at Megatron: his Antimatter would kill freeza no problem, but when freeza is billions of times stronger and faster, shit just doesnt matter

[u/BCCBATTLES → u/Jstin8]

The difference there is Megatron DOESN'T continue fighting after his physical body is destroyed though. I'd agree with you if Palpatine couldn't fight after his physical body is destroyed, but he absolutely CAN.

[u/Helpful-Emotion9256 → u/BCCBATTLES]

But again, frieza can be argued to still hurt him anyway

[u/SoakedSun24 → u/Jstin8]

Souls in DB and SW arent the same. Its the ki argument where people will try to argue that Dragon Ball > fiction because they can physically outmuscle any ability

[u/Moidada77 → u/SoakedSun24]

If you can output enough power to counteract friezas own physical strength.

Telekenesis is basically remote controlling an object or doesn't bypass or shut down the objects ability to resist.

Otherwise even abra could break hulk in two.

[u/SoakedSun24 → u/Moidada77]

Could you dumb this one down a bit and rephrase? Sorry I’m a dumbass

[u/Moidada77 → u/SoakedSun24]

You basically use Telekenesis to basically move an object right?

Now depending on how strong it is you can either move a spoon or lift or boulder or lift a planet.

So if something is heavier or stronger than the pull/push you can generate it won't be effective as the stronger object can resist it by counteracting it with raw strength.

The muscle fibres in frieza can probably resist and counterpull....unless Palpy kinda lobotomise him or takes control of his body completely that frieza can't will or resist against it.

[u/SoakedSun24 → u/Moidada77]

Aah, I see. Thank you!

Even then though, I don’t think the telekinesis thing is a wincon regardless. Frieza doesn’t really have a defense against his energy being ripped out of him as he’s fighting as well, plus the whole force lightning thing being able to attack souls

[u/Moidada77 → u/SoakedSun24]

The soul Pikachuing is more valid yes

[u/valtaoi_007 → u/SoakedSun24]

Hakai erases soul, how does he have no immunity to soul attacks if he was shown on-screen to resist soul erasure

[u/SoakedSun24 → u/valtaoi_007]

Hakai is different. I was waiting for someone to mention the hakai thing.

Hakai is a type of ki ability, its just way more potent than your average ki blast or kamehameha. Frieza managed to hold it off because it was from a weaker god of destruction, + again he was golden. If you watch the Toppo fight theres no doubt homie wouldn’t died to one of his hakais. What im getting at is Frieza doesn’t have full resistance to destruction energy, and force lightning isnt even ki to begin with. If you wanna argue he has some resistances when powered up then thats valid, but to argue hes immune to soul destruction entirely imo is not valid

[u/valtaoi_007 → u/SoakedSun24]

Just because an attack uses ki doesn’t mean the effects can be nullified by someone stronger. Look at ginyu’s body change, Janemba’s reality warping or Buu’s transfigurarion. If a ki attack has an erasure side effect and a character resists it, then he still has some sort of resistance to erasure

[u/SoakedSun24 → u/valtaoi_007]

But the opposite can be argued as well. Look at Guldo, his attack wasn’t ki based and people weren’t pushing through it when Vegeta should have been able to. Theres more example that are slipping me as of currently but the main one I use is the Hit argument. Goku pushed through it by heightening his abilities. Does that mean he can just push through time based abilities now? Or what about Jiren shattering it with a glare, which only happened BECAUSE of his higher energy. If you wanna argue Frieza has some resistances then that’s fine, but that doesn’t mean he can just griddy and throw it off him

[u/valtaoi_007 → u/SoakedSun24]

Yeah but Hit’s abilities were directly stated to be able to be surpassed by being stronger. Only him, we can’t assume the same from everyone else

[u/SoakedSun24 → u/valtaoi_007]

Do you have a scan? If so.. well fuck. Still though I think the case of stats > hax lmao lol even is still pretty stupid and I don’t believe Frieza has full immunity to soul destruction

[u/valtaoi_007 → u/SoakedSun24]