Glad to know someone else agree that Goku solos fiction, Crash onetaps DK, Koro Sensei shows Monokuma what suction cup therapy is, and whatever the heck that third one is fr
Question: how does Sonic take Durability, when Goku takes Strength, especially since, in Dragon Ball, how much you can take depends on how much you can dish out? So if Goku is stronger than Sonic, shouldnât he be more durable as well. And why is Power split between the two since Gokuâs power should scale to his strength as well?
Super Sonic doesnât have complete invulnerability and has been damaged by attacks as strong as him (+ strict time limit), canât say anything about super sonic 2 tho.
Hyper sonic is out of the equation, as it is literally inaccessible
Any time Super is damaged by anything, that anything is either actively using, or is made out of Chaos energy, which is the same stuff that allows Super to exist. Super Sonic has also been hit by beings stronger than him, and he didn't take any damage, such as Metal Overlord and Egg Salamander.
I do not feel Super has any time limit. If we're binding Sonic to gameplay mechanics, though, then Super does, but it would last too long to matter. Sonic can hold any finite number of Rings, he can generate Rings that automatically attract to him with the Cyloop, and in-gameplay, Rings are literally everywhere in the world, meaning he'd never really be without them. Super Sonic, using game mechanics, would last even longer than the time limitless canon version, due to how many Rings Sonic has. ( And if we are talking about Sonic needing Rings for Super, then that gives him access to their mechanics in general, such as surviving any damage with just 1 Ring, and invincibility frames after getting hit. )
Egg salamander was stronger than super sonic??? Since when?? Even assuming Super Sonic is a power multiplier (meaning adventure sonic would make a weaker super sonic compared to now), the salamander had literally no feats to put it above planet level, actually being upscaled by many fans for fighting both Sonic and Shadow and losing badly to both
the time limit isnât rather a time limit, I should have explained more but itâs mostly just energy consuming. Rings are canonically a power source, so even if you donât consider gameplay, the form still takes a huge amount of energy to maintain, and amount sonic canât give for a long time. He could hold his form without any outside energy source for a few seconds in Advance 3(?), and arguably for a much longer time nowadays, but in a match that happens outside his verse he wouldnât be able to find anything to help him out.
It's powered by the Sol Emeralds, and the mech on its own (before gaining that boost) could defeat Blaze. So, the Egg Salamander with the Sol Emeralds's power should be, at least to some degree, stronger than Burning Blaze, and she is equal to Super Sonic.
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I know it isn't the main topic for this, but, for me, personally, I don't feel Mainline SONIC characters grow in power over time.
I agree with you on that. Maybe sonic learns how to use his speed better over time, maybe he gets better at fighting, but I donât think any of them grow in power
In-universe, Super exists through Chaos energy, of which we know the Emeralds have an infinite amount of. So, the form isn't held back by an energy limit. Rings are just money, in-universe, so it isnât limited by a pay wall. Sonic could stay Super for days, during Sonic Advance, so if there is an unknown time limit it's truthfully too long to matter.
There has been a time, in-canon and in-universe, that Sonic dropped out of Super, though. At the end of Sonic Unleashed, Super Sonic defeats Dark Gaia, and as we look closer to Sonic, he's panting. Heaving, almost. He strains his movements, and then suddenly his body gives out. As he snaps into unconscious, he drops out of the Super state.
Sonic had become physically exhausted. Not just worn down, or out of breath, but so entirely literally exhausted, that his body couldn't even maintain consciousness anymore. At that sheer extent of exhaustion (which if anyone ever comes close to or hits, please be careful and seek medical help), Sonic dropped out of Super, and into unconscious.
So, although Super doesn't run on the user's stamina at all, you still have finite stamina in the form, as you do in your base form. When transforming into Super, you are fully rejuvenated, which includes replenishing your stamina, but unless if you have another method for keeping your stamina maxed out, it will continue to drain just like any other alive being, living through the hours of each day.
In regards to this verdict specifically, I feel Sonic has a much larger pool of stamina than Goku, as well as transforming replenishing it, for Sonic. So, I don't feel Goku has any solid way of making Sonic burn through all stamina, before he does so himself.
As the guy who made the list, I was aiming for Monokuma but I opted to make Korosensei tie because Monokuma takes most physical stats and if you wanna consider it a pity point to Koro, sure. I personally believe that machine or not, Korosensei can keep up with characters like Sakura, Genocider Syo etc.
Ngl, i didn't know it was requests to make stat pages, I thought it was just a random "what do you think takes the matchup" post but hey i'll take the free post, thank you! lol
I wage that Goku has better durability/endurance mostly he can manage with forms that eat up his stamina + Super Sonic needed to speedrun enemies before his time ran out
Then again though, in Sonic Advance, Sonic was able to sustain the super form for a while. Super Sonic as a transformation also refreshes Sonicâs energy while Gokuâs transformations actively eat at his. Thatâs really why I believe Sonic wins, you can argue similar stats but Sonic can keep up while Goku will unfortunately start to slow down
That one genuinely just depends on who you ask. Some people here have Goku at Multi+, others have Sonic at barely Uni. Id argue Base Sonic and Base Goku are around equal being generous and giving both the Multi arguments. So yeah, I think base Sonic is viable
Yeah, either way you look at the Super timer it seems that Sonic can be inside of it basically as long as he wants to be. If you think rings are a game mechanic, then he can stay there for as long as he needs since thereâs no stated limit. If rings are canon, then Sonic Speed Simulator lets him hold millions at a time, so it doesnât even matter that thereâs a timer
Only ui and ssj3 really eat at his stamina, heâs able to retain blue just fine, the stamina issue with that form was only a problem in the manga, not the anime
True, but the argument that I was presenting was that Goku will still run out of energy eventually. sonic can too, but the fact that Super Sonic seems to have a way longer time limit then UI, weâve never seen Goku stay in UI for days, especially when heâs fighting which actively strains and breaks his body
Super Sonic isnt infinite durability either. Supers have consistently been knocked out of their forms, and the upper levels of the Sonic universe have damaged Super forms in gameplay (Both Perfect Dark Gaia fights, The End Supreme, Alf Layla Wa Layla)
Itâs invulnerability negation that allows those enemies to do that (btw, Darkspine Sonic doesnât have invulnerability so I donât know why youâre including him in that list), for example, the Egg Salamander could bypass the invulnerability of Super Sonic and Burning Blaze yet the FAR MORE powerful Egg Wizard couldnât. Or take Phantom King, he could bypass Super Sonicâs invulnerability yet the FUCKING TIME EATER couldnât.
Except almost EVERY character that has bypassed a Super formâs invulnerability is tied to the Chaos and or Sol Emeralds in some way, like the Titans and Egg Salamander being powered by them, or Solaris being created by the Emeralds fusing Iblis and Mephiles.
And also, we just have SO MANY instances of being told straight up that Super forms are invulnerable itâs not even funnyđ
Solaris being created by the Emeralds fusing Iblis and Mephiles.
Afaik Solaris does no damage to the Hedgehogs. All he does is toss debris at them, and rusted cars and concrete rocks w/ rebar don't have planetary/universal feats. This is all ignoring that Solaris wasn't created by the Solaris project but rather the other way around. Solaris was real regardless of what happened, and even if it were the case that it was, that wouldn't somehow give Solaris "invulnerability negation" powers never explicitly stated. You're entire mindset on this is just flawed.
Funny how you don't mention Perfect Dark Gaia, given that the 360/PS3 fight has a literal health bar for Super Sonic and the Wii/PS2 fight actually knocks rings from Super Sonic's timer, and he doesn't have any association w/ the Chaos Emeralds whatsoever.
Unfortunately Lightman doesnât have invulnerability negation. It seems like invulnerability negation was an ability unique to the REAL Phantom Ruby, of which Lightman didnât have.
Is bro stupid? Firstly, the lasers that stem from its body. Secondly, the âdebrisâ it throws at you are from the Eyes of Solaris, which are space-time rifts, one variant instantly kills you regardless of how many rings you have, the other HURLS objects at the characters, and while the End of the World stage had cars, signs, rocks, etc. being thrown out of them, in the Solaris boss fight the things being thrown were a lot more akin to the attacks created by Iblis in itâs boss fights, and those are what harm the Super Hogs AS WELL AS Solaris itself when theyâre thrown back at him by Silver.
I dunno what else youâre yapping on about, Solaris started out as a tiny flame before its rebirth, and we can clearly see the Emeralds assisting in its creationđ
âDoesnât have any association w/ the Chaos Emeralds whatsoever.â Lol, jokes on you man, I actually have the game manual for Unleashedđ
âDr Eggman then, from the safety of his control panel, reversed the polarity of the Chaos Emeralds, releasing the dark energy within. The energy was then fired as a powerful beam towards the world.â Which awoke Dark Gaia.
And âDue to his proximity to the Chaos Emeralds as the dark energy was expelled, Sonic underwent a new transformation.â Remind me, cause according to you my logic is âflawedâ, what did Dark Gaia absorb from Sonic during the climax of the game?đ€
Oh yes! The dark energy expelled from the Emeralds that transformed him into the Werehog! Gosh, the more you know!
Donât mess with us Sonic fans, weâre autistic as fuck and EXTREMELY deadly when you come at the kingđ
That doesn't mean infinite durability, what the super form has is invincibility and all the characters who have faced Super Sonic can negate his invincibility. Because they have negative energy
That's valid. I would point out Super not having a time limit in-canon, to be honest. It'd be like saying Goku has a finite number of Ki bars instead of a mass of Ki energy, because of the gameplay of Dragonball Xenoverse 2, for an example.
I think Goku definitely takes the base AP and ki durability advantage, but speed, powers and forms go to Sonic pretty much, even in base. Super Sonic takes everything imo.
I donât know anything about Danganronpa and Assassination classroom, Iâll skip that one.
Is that Lordgenome vs some Gundam or smth? I donât know who heâs fighting, so I canât say anything here.
Yeah, I agree on this Crash vs DK take, even though the MU isnât that good imo
1) Really no Goku doesn't win in the AP and considering that the cosmology of dragon ball is too inconsistent and there is no fixed scale it depends too much on what you buy but the scales a lot... The point is that really because cosmology is too inconsistent you can't measure a sufficiently fixed AP. And furthermore, much higher and superior scales are not accepted due to that same inconsistency. While Sonic has a more consistent scale which is 5D to 6D even the state is going to be greatly surpasses Goku.
I just view Erazor Djinn and Void as outliers and donât think Perfect Chaos, True Area 53 Final Boss, Dark Gaia, Metal Overlord and Gemerl to be multiversal or even past planetary each. Hell, Frontiers nerfed Super Sonic back to planetary again via the Titans, but I can at least accept the End scaling really high.
So uh, yeah, Base Sonic should be solar system level or so, since thatâs where Infinite and Ultimate Emerl scale to and he beat those in base (even if he needed slight help for the former)
Erazor and Void are not cases Outliers, Dark Gaia, Metal Overlord work based on the energy of the emeralds and not where did you get that "Frontiers Nerfed Super Sonic" and Just because of the Titans that doesn't make sense this just reinforces that the Titans can match Super Sonic.
You're just using the old Sonic scale when he's literally already demonstrated more powerful feats
Thatâs the issue, no one but Erazor Djinn and Void have any multiversal feats for Base Sonic to compare to. Perfect Chaos only had the finite negative Chaos energy. And if you say that Perfect Chaos compares to the full power of the emeralds, thatâs completely incorrect because Sonic CANNOT be more powerful or even close to being as powerful to the emeralds, or he couldnât be boosted by them for more than only double his base power. And no Adventure era final boss except Metal Overlord, Egg Salamander and ironically Ultimate Emerl scale above Final Hazard and the Eclipse Cannon, which caps at planetary.
Dark Gaia explicitly is a planetary threat. Thatâs whatâs intended and thatâs where itâs scaling ends, period.
The Titans being as powerful as Dark Gaia is a nerf for Super Sonic. He has fought multiple cosmology wipers before them, like Egg Salamander, Solaris, Egg Wizard, Lightman and Time Eater.
Really, if you copy and paste the same thing you said again, you are only showing that you are really rooted in the older scale. Sonic gets stronger over time and much of his scale changes so if you keep going with that that would be your opinion.
Man that is literally the most wrong scale I've ever heard in my entire life.
With the first, literally everything is wrong, these same people can be compared and attacked with son and were also empowered by negative energy from the emerald, which makes the scale functional.
Literally the character works based on the energy that the emeralds give, which is why Dark Gaia is comparable.
That doesn't nerf Super Sonic and literally the Titans are presented as powerful enemies capable of giving Super Sonic a fight so they are literally on par with Super Sonic. You are not really showing how the scale actually works.
Its true tho Goku and sonic should tie in speed and durability goes with goku like strength BUT If it was Archie That would be a Entire different story
They really donât tie in speed, nor does Goku take ANY of these categories for that matter. Please stop underestimating Game Sonic, itâs 2025 ffsđ€Šđ»ââïž
Uh Nobody is underestimating game sonic Everyone inckuding me believes hes Universal Plus with Emeasurable speed its more like you're underestimating goku saying He doesnt take any category
Iâm not underestimating Goku, that boy is Low Multi (6 universes) in AP and MFTL+ to an insane degree thanks to the stacking multipliers his transformations give him. Unfortunately for him though, Sonic constantly fights and beats enemies that make Zeno, the strongest character in the Dragon Ball verse, look like a damn chew-toy in comparison. Itâs not that Goku isnât strong, itâs that Sonic is just THAT MUCH STRONGER.
Going by what they gave Eggman? So Multi+ and immeasurable speed (given in the black boxes) vs 1,503x bigger than our universe + the multipliers then immeasurable speed (bs)? Yeah, going off their logic (which is still flawed mind you), Super Sonic would god stomp Goku regardless of the speed advantage just by nuking him in a single attackđŹ
Thatâd make him Uni+ to Super Sonicâs Multi+, gotta remember that Infinite Universe â Infinite UniverseS! (Not to mention that Sonicâs own universe is also infinite in size)
As much as I ADORE this matchup (itâs quite literally my all time favourite VS battle), it really isnât close unfortunatelyđ«€
Goku should be higher, multiple statements state that otherworld transcends all dimensions and Goku with his weakest version of ssj god threatened to destroy it
Hey, um, Afterlife stuff has not been debunked to my knowledge, but Sonic has 6D arguments. I can't remember the details, though. I just think Sonic outspeeds and massively outhaxes. And if all else fails, I still have Plan M.
Ngl, Sonic takes every single category listed there.
Strength: Doesnât matter if youâre talking lifting strength or AP, Super Sonic massively upscales from Darkspine Sonic catching, pushing, and launching back an attack made up of reality itself (immeasurable LS), vs Gokuâs very clearly finite LS. And Sonicâs cosmology is just bigger and he actually scales to the full scope of it, so AP is his as well.
Speed: Gokuâs immeasurable speed feats are INCREDIBLY shaky and can be debunked incredibly quickly compared to Sonicâs far more solid immeasurable speed feats. But, if you WERE to give Goku immeasurable speed on a silver platter, Sonic has arguments for a higher degree of immeasurable speed thanks to scaling off two temporal axisâ.
Powers: Donât even know how a tie was the conclusion that was come to here, Iâm pretty sure everyone agrees Sonic takes this handilyđ
Forms: Multipliers to stats is cool and all, but Super forms allow Sonic to warp reality, have greater manipulation over space and time, grants him invulnerability, allows him to breathe in space (something Goku canât do at all), etc. I think itâs pretty clear cut Super forms > SSJ forms.
Durability: Yeah, Sonic has overall better durability, being able to take hits from his verses biggest hitters, plus he has rings that allow even his base form to tank hits from the BIGGEST hitter (as of right now) in his verse, and his Super forms grant him invulnerability.
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u/Equivalent_Ant6794 The second coming vs Henry stickmin fan Jul 28 '25
Aw mine didn't make it in, ah whatever good stuff