I still disagree with Tails being debatable, it's like Mid to MAYBE Hard W for Luigi, unless we equalize Super Tails to Super Sonic, but Super Tails was only used once and since then it has 0 ways to be scaled to higher end Super Sonic Scaling.
Otherwise everything else on the list makes sense.
as someone who tends to think sonic characters beat their mario opponents (Sonic beats mario and eggman beats bowser for example) and a massive sonic wanker
i realy fucking hate that Sanae gets so high all the time. she's not the sidekick that's Marisa and it ignores the important parts of her character to make it work.
Tails isn't devatable at all, yet is the only debatable one, because Mario vs Sonic matchups aren't acyual matchups, they're platonic thoughs of how sprite animations should go and as such it's always and only extreme diff that's a 60/40 on who wins instead of actually trying to find out who wins. It's a mid W for Luigi at best.
Shaggy should also be in Mid L, since Luigi has 0 ways to bypass his regen, while he also has ways to beat him via sealing. Same for Courage, Luigi can't beat his regen and the Dark Matter Meteor just outhaxes Luigi way too badly, but Luigi outstats by enough do that it should be an Hard L instead.
Nepnep and Koma-san (I think that's his name) should both be in debatable from the bit I know about them.Ā
Bandana Dee and Gamma should also be in at least Debatable but also leaning more towards Hard L with the way they outstat him by quite a bit.
And lastly, what is Pac-Man doing in Hard W when he has like nothing going on for him for this debate and should be in mid W at best? Did I miss a very substantial Pac-Man upgrade or what?
And why is Yuta there? There's no way that this is an actual matchup.
I have no clue what youāre talking about but I agree Luigi wins
Luigi debatably outstats (he at least would win consistency here) and has hax to outmatch shaggyās (mostly). He can be sealed away and I donāt remember if he resists transmutation or not.
The dark matter meteor is dangerous but Luigiās full arsenal can be equally as dangerous (and more convenient to use probably)
Even if Luigi has a stat advantage debatable, Sanae has the innate ability to call her mothers two gods: Kanako and Suwako, which she does a lot in character. I don't see Luigi having much of a chance in a 3v1, especially when at least two (most likely all three) are high tiers in the Touhou verse with many abilities they can just utilize.
However, excluding that ability, I'm not sure. I admittedly don't know a lot about Sanae in terms of character and powerscaling, so I don't really know.
Tails is either a mid W or a hard W.
We barely know anything about Tails's scaling besides him being somewhere within Sonic's tier of power and speed. We can't even quantify Super Tails because he never appeared in modern times, so he has no scaling to Modern Super Sonic. Tails just has weaker scaling than Sonic compared to Luigi's scaling to Mario. Does not help that Tails is less experienced and haxxed than Sonic.
Personally, I don't agree with Tails. For what I buy: He still has solid scaling to Sonic. Even in a scenario of the cast growing in power over time (which I feel many canon stories and events directly contradict the idea of), Tails still has recent scaling to Sonic thanks to things like IDW, Dream Team, Frontiers, and CrossWorlds. And, due to SONIC characters remaining consistent/stagnant in power over time, rather than their power rising, Tails in Super would still scale directly to Sonic in Super (plus, we don't have any indication that the Emeralds give different level boosts to different characters, so the Super state for Tails would be identical in function to Sonic's, and vise-versa).
I also do personally feel both his arsenal and experience are being undersold, here. He's been fighting alongside Sonic, and even having multiple solo-battles, for many years of his life. He's also gone up against a wide variety of enemies, circumstances, and traversed a large variety of stages, as well.
( Technically, Sonic Superstars is also "recent scaling", but I meant to clarify that the titles I mentioned for that are recent in-universe, and not specifically so for us - out of universe. )
First. I appreciate you being respectful, and I'll act the same way.
He still has solid scaling to Sonic, and due to SONIC characters remaining consistent/stagnant in power over time, rather than rising or something
But that's not really true. We have multiple statements, feats, and scaling that prove the Sonic characters have repeatedly gotten stronger between Sonic the Hedgehog and Sonic Frontiers. Yeah, Classic Sonic's presence makes the scaling bizarre and wonky, but we can't just ignore everything else because two games decided to make him relative to Modern Sonic. especially when both have some contradictions within them
Tails in Super would still scale directly to Sonic in Super (plus, we don't have any indication that the Emeralds give different level boosts to different characters, so the Super state for Tails would be identical in function to Sonic's, and vise-versa).
We kind of do, though. There's been a few times when two characters utilized the emeralds, but one was clearly above the other. Or one couldn't sustain their form as effectively as another.
That aside. We know that Super States grows alongside Base States, as Super Sonic clearly gets stronger as Base Sonic becomes more powerful. So, we'd have no reason to say Super Tails is 1:1 with Super Sonic. Especially when Tails is consistently depicted as noticeably weaker and slower than Sonic, and he's less experienced using the emeralds power.
I also do personally feel both his arsenal and experience are being undersold, here. He's been fighting alongside Sonic, and even having multiple solo-battles, for many years of his life. He's also gone up against a wide variety of enemies, circumstances, and traversed a large variety of stages, as well.
His experience is nothing to scoff at. But I'm not really sure what his arsenal entails. We can't just assume he can do everything Super Sonic can because there's no evidence for that. Tails has a sizable arsenal, especially with items like wisps, boxes, etc. But he is noticeably less haxxed than Sonic when it comes to nothing but their base forms / Super States by virtue of him just not being playable in every game. in fact, not playable at all in like a decade outside of spinoffs, which Frontiers and beyond may finally fix.
Luigi has direct scaling to Mario. Tails is consistently portrayed as weaker than Sonic even if he's capable of keeping up to an extent speed-wise. Although I do think Sonic's stats are higher than Mario's, so maybe Tails's being lower doesn't actually matter
Edit: missed out on a few things. Even in Frontiers, Tails is portrayed as weaker than Sonic despite the uh... clear gameplay mistake Sonic Team made, lmao, and I can't recall anything in IDW that treats Sonic and Tails as relative, but I could easily be missing something. Crossworld... does it even count? They're just racing in vehicles, there's no reason to scale their physical stats to each other.
I do feel there's evidence for them growing in power over time. For me, personally, though, I feel the evidence indicating they've remained consistent in power is a lot more plentiful, and stronger, overall. It is just one example, but, Sonic and his younger self both perform identically when they try to go against Time Eater in their base forms, even reacting to the same attack on the same exact frame, when examining the second-to-last cutscene. Sincerely so, no pressure whatsoever to check this out, but, I have written a post about my thoughts on power-creep in Mainline SONIC, if you would ever want to look into it. It is perfectly okay if you'd rather not, of course, but it does contain all of my primary points in favor of stagnant power, and my main points in counter to growing power, so to speak.
<>
I do recall SA2 indicating that Shadow was having problems with the Super state. But, they never go into why, and, with Shadow being an artificial being with innate Chaos energy, I'm personally hesitant to assign the same example to Tails, so to speak. ( No later SONIC game either depicts Shadow as struggling at all with Super, or mentions it whatsoever, which is weird, to get off topic briefly. ) But, besides this, I can't think of a time multiple people have gone Super, with one being better than the other. Tails's Super form in Heroes looks lazy and lame, but unfortunately, "lazy and lame" is consistent with SEGA's decisions with anyone Not Sonic, I feel. Even in Sonic 3, rather than Knuckles, Tails, and Amy getting new sprites for Super like Sonic did, they just pulse a color, with no other visual changes. But, even if it looks lame, it is still identically Super, in name and function. And, I do recall Emerl and Metal Sonic being amped by the 7 Emeralds at different points, but, those weren't meant to be them transforming at all, to my understanding, and were just individual boosts from the Emeralds.
Of course, you could be referring to other examples and I'm misunderstanding, so I'm sorry if so.
<>
I won't go too into detail of Tails's arsenal, due to (truthfully) not wanting to write something too long. But, I'll mention a handful of cool things, I feel.
ā¢ So, Tails has access to an Ark of the Cosmos. This is an accessory worn by the user, and having one grants you free control over gravity. You can use it in a widespread range, fly with it, move and crush other people and objects with it, and flip individual gravity as well. Additionally, if equipped with an AotC, you can resist the effects of any external gravity manipulation.
ā¢ Tails has access to the 7 Chaos Emeralds. They have multiple manual abilities that are useful, such as time manipulation, teleportation, self-cloning, and allowing one to see and interact with the invisible and intangible. But, the Emeralds also have some passive effects. By just touching an Emerald, you can fully heal yourself, and replenish + increase your maximum stamina and HP, as seen in Tails Adventure. As seen in Otherworld Comedy, a singular Chaos Emerald was capable of protecting Tails's mind from the universe-crossing reality manipulation, that was rewriting memories. And, a single Chaos Emerald could also entirely protect Zavok from being infected and transmuted by the evolved Metal Virus.
ā¢ Tails has the Debuff Parry skill, as well. Anytime he parries an attack, the attacker's Attack Potency is decreased for a time.
ā¢ Tails was a part of the event to save Maginaryworld from collapse. In this time, he got hold of many different Forcejewels, some of which I think can have neat usage in a combat scenario. Firstly, he has Low Moonstone, which permanently lowers the max HP and Attack Potency of all enemies. Shield Quartz prevents everyone (except the user) from using Forcejewels for 4 turns. This could very possibly work on other magical gem type items, as well. Curse Opal lays a hex onto a target, preventing them from moving for a time (Tails can resist this hex, as well).
ā¢ It isn't solely "hax", but, I do want to bring up Slicer. This is an item from CrossWorlds, and it is specifically used to (very accurately) home in on a target, and bisect them. I feel having an item specifically made to cut in half whatever you are targeting is not only useful, but also a funny jump in tone from "Curse Opal".
I do also feel Tails has good resistances, but, yes. To keep this section brief.
I do feel there's evidence for them growing in power over time.
I read a good bit of it. Some points were valid, while others I felt weren't. Going down the list.
Dismissing Perfect Chaos and Metal Overlord as outliers feels a bit much. That's two separate occasions of a base form defeating a super-tier foe. That's not all, either. Egg Dragoon appears as well, which is big. Because in Unleashed, an earlier model forced Sonic into turning Super as Base Sonic was completely powerless. Later on, Werehog Sonic, who is canonically stronger (but slower), proceeds to battle an upgraded version... which gave him a tough time and even worried him.
Sonic in Generations proceeds to fight an even more upgraded version in his base form, something he couldn't do against a lesser version, which outright shows a progression in his power.
Biolizard also is extremely difficult to scale. The version Shadow fought is blatantly superior to the one from SA2. It's straight-up doing shit that Shadow never even saw. Hell, sticking to the Shadow Gens. Mephiles also appears. In 06, he was vaguely superior to Shadow, but in Generations, he's basically a joke. Shadow wins fairly easily even when Mephiles tries jumping him.
You also can't use Biolizard in both encounters. Shadow kills Biolizard, so Sonic shouldn't have been able to fight him unless it was a different Biolizard, and in that case, that's further problematic in terms of scaling because the two are clearly not the same demon.
Super Egg Robo is superior to the Egg Emperor from Heroes. It's being fueled by a greater power source, and it's directly stated to be Eggman's most powerful creation at the time. Hell, we have no reason to believe the Egg Emperor is only as strong as the one from Heroes because it literally gets destroyed and explodes in Heroes. Why would Eggman recreate the same robot with the same strength knowing that strength wasn't enough? Eggman in IDW practically states he's not dumb enough to retry the same things. That would also have to ignore multiple mechs stated to be superior to the last, and logically being superior, like the Nega Wisp Armor or the Egg Dragoon, the latter of which has in-universe statements of having been worked on for years and is stated to be Eggman's pinnacle?
Iblis is... no offense, something that doesn't make sense. He has no barring on scaling outside of 06. We don't know his power growth. We know almost nothing about them. All we know is that it's clearly manageable by the Sonic cast, and that's where the scaling ends. I don't understand using him to try and debunk the notions of the characters growing when that just doesn't work.
There's a few more, but I don't want to make three commentsā
but, Sonic and his younger self both perform identically when they try to go against Time Eater in their base forms, even reacting to the same attack on the same exact frame, when examining the second-to-last cutscene.
Sonic didn't boost once. Aka, him actually speeding up. Hell, we barely see them interact. We know that Modern is superior (at least in base) because Metal Sonic canonically gets upgraded throughout the years to try and best Sonic. Hell, you bring up Forces, but Forces outright states Sonic has grown stronger. Sonic just has AD, he becomes stronger rapidly to catch up with superior foes. Speaking ofā
SA2: Sonic is initially beneath Shadow, then ties Shadow, then finally beats Shadow. Showing a progression.
Sonic Battle: The characters canonically grow stronger (repeatedly, mind you), even excluding the final battle against Emerl.
Sonic Advanced 3: Gemerl is directly stated to be superior to Emerl, yet Sonic can best him despite being relative to Emerl.
Shadow the Hedgehog: Shadow is directly stated and shown to have gotten stronger than in Heroes.
Multiple guides state Sonic has grown stronger or faster since his last adventure.
Sonic Unleashed: Egg Dragoon is stated to be the peak of Eggman's machinery
Sonic Generations: Perfect Chaos and Metal Overlord
Sonic Forces: Sonic is directly stated to have gotten stronger, gets stronger against for the third match against Infinite, and must grow stronger again after for the D.E.R, which is outright stated to be superior to Infinite who Sonic and Avatar struggled to beat.
Sonic Frontiers: Multiple times, Sonic is shown or stated to have gotten more powerful.
And there's dozens more guides and games that outright show or directly state Sonic surpasses his previous self.
Chaos energy,
If anything. Shadow should be the most appropriate to utilize the Super form as he has a better understanding of the emeralds and their power. He just isn't as experienced as Sonic in Super, so he was unable to sustain it.
The others, outside of Silver, only get "Super powered forms," which... that alone already calls into question whether or not they get the same amp. Especially since Super Knuckles is a thing mentioned in the game, yet when he transforms, it's either a "super-like state" or "super-powered" unlike "Super Sonic".
The rest is fair enough. I didn't realize Tails had quite an arsenal.
Komasan regenerating from atomization of the body, mind, and soul, having one of the strongest degrees of immortality by being immune to the concept of death itself and showing evidence of being tied to a conceptual nature means simply surviving most Weapons that Luigi can utilize.
Also having the Hell Hammer from blasters means he can kill Yo-Kai, so surpassing Conceptual existence and various immortalities is a very strong offensive option. As is the Succor Stash from blasters, which consumes the spiritual and conceptual Yo-Kai.
BUT Luigi is still stronger and faster, plus while normal Luigi's Weapons ain't doing the job, the Transmutation SHOULD work, and funnily enough
Komasan is susceptible to the Luigi's PolterGust giving Luigi an easy wincon to pull off.
Stats are generally vague, a lot of dimensional stuff that needs a lot more time to be looked into given everything. Komasan should be at least low-multiversal to stats because Blasters has him very comparable to Dame Demona, who was risking the destruction of at least one past, present, and future. Dimensional stuff would get much higher but like varies and leads to some interpretation in aspects, and there are showings of an existing āreal worldā beyond the initial universe that could get really goofy. Heās pretty fast, bare minimum MFTL+ based on the not too vague Starry Noko galaxy travelling (Which could then be multiplied), though interactions with time give notable immeasurable arguments. Komasan is a pretty high tier in Yo-Kai Watch in general, the blasters (Which Komasan is a leader of) are comparable to several godly beings in the verse, matching Deadtime, Zazel, possibly even Hinozall if you believe he was trying in the fights.
Ability-wise: Heās got a lot of immortalities (High-Godly regeneration thanks to being a concept, resurrection, deathless), likely holds aspects of acausality, core fire abilities, darkness control, soul manip, fear inducement, dimensional travel, possesion (Notably potent and there exist showings of Yo-Kai resisting other possession, but not Komasanās), hammerspace, manipulation of the fourth wall (Think video game stats and manga pages/symbols), and some others that arenāt as useful.
His arsenal as a Blaster gives the Getaway Dummies which cover his biggest weakness (They have shown to save Yo-Kai from being sealed) with hundreds on hand at any time and the ability to create more on the fly, earth manipulation, air manipulation, electricity manipulation, probability manipulation, gravity manipulation, spacial manipulation, barriers, control of history, telekinesis, mind reading, life drain, sealing, conceptual damage and absorption, BFR, and infinite stamina, to name a chunk.
He could have more, Komasan is less looked into than others.
He has too many resistances to name here, the Poltergust does utilize the lack of one to sealing, but I believe most of Luigiās kit is nullified (Donāt quote me on that).
I guess you can argue similar arguments for Luigi with the right material (but I'm assuming both come from downscaling?)
Idk if Yo-Kai Watch Youkai are anywhere as crazy as, like, Touhou Youkai, so idk about that, but I haven't heard anything too ridiculous yet, also Luigi has the Poltergust which should work iirc
Courage (Heās a toon. Unless you apply Paper or Mario-Kun Scaling, then I donāt really see how Luigi's winning that particular fight.)
Toon Force isn't really the end-be-all in vs (which usually treats it as a power system like said in Wile E vs Tom), And while he has really good regen and endurance, Luigi statstomps and has hax that could work on him (Luigi also has toonforce too but it's weaker than Courage's)
disagree about tails being tailx being debatable it's not at all tails had used super tails 1 I think on sonic3 so he isn't really having feats in this form compared to stronger forms like dreamy luigi of white tanooki luigi and we can't really scale super tails to super sonic
As a Sonic fan... N O. These fights never come down to stats. Look at Bowser vs Eggman, this stuff is never a stomp for either side. The debate for BowsEgg lasted two entire waiting periods and then some. Even Speed is a non-factor as both have Immeasurable speed. These two either share hax, or it cancels out in other ways. It all ends with who's the most sustainable Forms, is hardest to kill, or who has some random hax the other doesn't. While Luigi wins, it is Debatable...
And tails doesnāt scale to higher tier characters like sonic compared to Luigi, (thanks to him being sidelined for a long time) at best itās his speed and iq possibly inventions to overwhelm helping him since Luigi is unpredictable via power ups and stronger with slight edge in experience highly doubt it would be as debatable outside of the super forms vs dreamy Luigi (which is always the wincons for any sonic characters) like a get out jail card. At least if you could wank tails to Sonic you can get a bit higher than pac man whoās best is a planet level feat but I think the connections carries the mu
Is it like just FNAF 1 or the entire FNAF verse because I have a hard time believing that an in-character Luigi isnāt going to fold to the hax of canon-comp FNAF.
āTake control of the Poltergustā That could contain King Boo and likely every ghost in the whole Luigiās mansion series I doubt theyāre doing much to it
The most we see of FNAF technonancy is total assimilation / possession of machinery and code via remnant. King Boo doesnāt do that on that level.
Physically touching remnant is extremely bad for Luigi, as well. It opens him up for all sorts of hax that he isnāt really prepared to deal with in character.
i didn't realize this was a who wins thing when i last saw it. my stupidity aside yeah i agree with most of these. sanae is not standing a chance. she is getting low-mid diffed.
31
u/SanchezSaysNO Mario vs Sonic fan Jul 31 '25
I still disagree with Tails being debatable, it's like Mid to MAYBE Hard W for Luigi, unless we equalize Super Tails to Super Sonic, but Super Tails was only used once and since then it has 0 ways to be scaled to higher end Super Sonic Scaling.
Otherwise everything else on the list makes sense.