The two that he put those on are the most petty ones ngl.
Like I scale K. Rool to mario characters, because I think there's a logical line of argumentation for K. Rool to deserve it, but simply asking for that line to be presented beyond "They're in the same Verse so they scale to each other" I think is a good urge.
And the one with cry me a river on was just grandstanding but about being biased. (Everyone is so the admission is nice at least.)
As I said I otherwise agree with a lot of these. ESPECIALLY about how much debate can matter. I'm the first to defend any funny MU because it makes me giggle, but if I'm wanting an episode about something they need to at least be within similar rungs to each others power.
I like donnie and I'll be fine with Donnie Vs Spiderman but the MU kinda feel like...filler? Never striked me as anything special tbh, but maybe I should look into it more.
It makes use of the fact Peter is incredibly intelligent, just like Donnie. It allows both to use gadgets, something Peter didn’t do against Batman. Peters items are genuinely so overlooked because most of the time we’re focused on his raw strength and thats what I like about it. Peters intelligence shines through with this mu specifically
Agreed, I saw some people say Donnie "limits Peter character to just Nerd and that the whole TMNT would be better since they cover all his character" when I couldn't disagree more.
Peter's intelligence is a VERY important part of his character that NO other matchup he has cover it in a interresting way outside of Donnie.
I don’t hate Spidey vs TMNT, far from it, but I like Donnie solo because the turtles all together specifically focus on Peters strength. Donatello matches Peter in terms of power (yes actually, apparently Donnies tech can get to the solar system ranges) and Donnie can potentially match Peter in physicals.. but its also a battle of the mind. Peter gets to actually USE his intelligence. Thats whats so cool about it
Cell is the guy who suffers most because he’s not actually returned since z , they coped on not making cell max the actual cell ( literally bio broly 2) and he brings nothing new in terms of animation potential besides using several different moves from different characters, it’s not helped that majority of his matches get above solar system like bro desperately needs to return someday
Based Kirby take, and also debate being important.
People focus way too much on the lore, "killing gods for a cake" jokes and etc, when Kirby is just a chill guy who wants to sleep, eat and have fun with his friends. Kirby is the one character who gives the least amount of fucks about the lore.
For this take, I’d argue that it just depends on the MU.
If The MU in question has good fight potential and fun ability interactions, I think a bad debate is something that can be forgiven.
But if it’s such a stomp that the clear loser has quite literally no advantages against their opponent, then it’s a problem. Case in point, Mark vs. Gohan.
This is so real, different series are going to have different burdens of proof depending on the world and its mechanics as well as previous feats and the idea of treating everything equally because of "fairness" when they weren't made equally is rough.
I agree that Z Cell would likely win in that fight. It's one of his only popular matchups where he actually has a good shot at winning
No Metriod character is above continental in power, while even early Dragon Ball characters like Roshi could blow up the Moon, with Cell obviously outscaling that.
Not to mention that Cell consists of the DNA of Goku, Piccolo, Vegeta and Frieza (among others), who possess resistances towards many of the Phazon abilities like electrokinesis, explosions, heat manipulation and cyrokinesis.
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u/Annsorigin🟥⬛Ragna the Bloodedge vs Velvet Crowe🟥⬛ enjoyer27d agoedited 27d ago
I agree withi agree with most. Like the Sudge Point (altho the Remaster Releases Next week so like Sudge will happen after it no matter what)
I agree Strongly that it's Fair to use High ends for one Character but not the Other. Like Sometimes One Characters High ends are More Believable then the Others.
K.Rool Obviously Scales to Mario. Otherwise you would have to Argue that Either DK is Trillions of Times Stronger then him (which is Stupid) or That Mario is Trillions of Times Stronger then DK (even Stupuder because DK is Constantly Depicted as Stronger then Mario)
Hard Agree on the Goku Point.
While Debate isn't everything (I do like some stomps) It is still a Big Part. And I started disliking some MUs I loved Due to how Much of a Stomp they are (Uzi VS Blitzø and Kira Vs Adachi)
I don't quite Know if the Community is Really Biased against Ben TBH.
I also Disagree With Batman Vs Spiderman Rematch. We had so many Spider People Vs Batfam MUs. That miles was literally the First Time a Spider Person fought someone From Outside DC. So yeah Absolutly Not Make Spider-Man Vs Batman 2 please. (Not like the MU is That Good anyway)
The Mario Cast just has weird scaling. By definition we’d also have to scale a random Goomba and Koopa to Mario because in the rpgs they can take a few hits from Mario. What about King Fredrick from Tropical Freeze? Or the Tiki Masks from Returns? There’s gotta be some line drawn somewhere but I personally am fine with scaling the main cast as high as everyone else does.
Well Scaling Normal Enemies to Mario is Dumb. Sure in Gameplay They Take Hits From Mario. But in Canon he Defeats Them Effortlessly without even Trying.
K. Rool being DKs Nemesis is Definetly Scaling to him.
But Mario just has the Complicated Case a Lot of Cartoony Franchises have. That everyone is Kinda Even with everyone Else.
I just Think K. Rool scaling to the High tier shit is More then Fair and I see no readon why he Shouldn't.
I see what you’re saying and I can agree in some sense, especially about the nemesis bit, but it wouldn’t entirely be fair arguing for one while not for the other, especially since if im not mistaken basic enemies have survived a throttling with Mario before. But again you won’t see me try and argue your run of the mill Koopa is outerversal with irrelevant speed lol
The thing with Mario is that its just not as consistent as id like and I 100% get that, but like i would only scale K Rool to Multi if you’re soft comping him because he and Mario haven’t properly interacted. You have to get him that scale by arguing he scales off of DK, who scales to Mario, and if someone needs that literal line of scaling I dunno if they should get it in all honesty. Its why I don’t opt to use chainscaling. If they can preform that feat themselves, sure. If they can scale to someone who can do that that should be somewhat valid too. But when you’re scaling someone to someone else to someone else the line starts blurring, you get me?
I just don't see why he Shouldn't. Like I said not Doing it would Imply that either Mario is TRILLIONS of Times Stronger then DK. Or that DK is Trillions of Times Stronger then K.Rool. and Neither is Accurate. They are all 3 Portrayed as Being in the same League.
Like I don't Like Chainscaling either. But sometimes In Bigger series Like That it's Unavoidable and in K. Rools Case just really Fucking Blatent.
I can see the argument, I know it seems viable but then it becomes the Thor = Rhino < Spider-Man argument. Mario is Thor, DK is Rhink and King K Rool is Spider-Man. I just don’t think its viable. Mario is weird to scale as a verse though so again I don’t blame you for doing so, I just blatantly disagree
Look there's a good bit I do agree with here but you'd get better results if the image was less aggressive and worded differently
Although biggest hard to swallow pill is the debate part since yeah unless it's a very specific situation like Omniman vs Homelander where everyone knows it will be funny as hell. It's fun to watch a good fight where you are uncertain of the winner post analysis but pre battle if you don't know one or both of the sides, let's you think how it will go. But if you see a fight like Miles vs Deku for a recent one, you already know one side is getting their ass beat because it's 2 very popular characters with one having outright objectively better stuff to them that's too much to handle. Can an undebatable fight still be fun to watch? Absolutely, we have had that be seen many times on the show. But even if it's a fun watch, the fun of debating the MU fades away, which is a heavy part of the entire point of who would win discussions and of DeathBattle as a series
I’m one of them and I stand on the hill. I don’t like chain scaling that way because itd be like saying Krillin genuinely scales to high complex multi and irrelevant speed because he clashed with Goku
Context is important, every time DK and Mario clash they’re shown to be comparable (if DK isn’t superior). Goku was testing Krillin and trying to boost his confidence
But that's how chain scaling works.2 characters are depicted to be equal to each other in some way therefore, they scale to one another and other characters that scale to that character K rool being able to scale the Donkey Kong who's a rival to Mario Would mean he's in the same rama power is mario
When the line starts from one character, I think thats fine. The character preformed the feat so they should scale to it right? And when you scale someone to someone else whos preformed that feat, I think thats also valid. But then it starts becoming unreliable when you have to scale one character off of another off of another. It’s the whole Spiderman > Rhino = Thor argument
Except tou can debunk with the rhinos stuff.Pretty easily just by pointing out how inconsistent it is for spiderman or the rhino to scale to thor also the fact that all that scaling is pretty outdated
When it comes to this situation donkey kong is a consistent rival king k rool is a consistent rival to DK it makes a pretty consistent scaling chain between all three as long as the scaling is fine and consistent existent there's no real problem with using
Actually, believe it or not Thor has boxed Rhino around 5 - 6 times and he lost. Does this mean Spider-Man = Thor? Hell no. Im just saying its weirdly more consistent than youd think.
And I think thats where the problem comes in. If K Rool shows up in a Mario game proper I will put down the pitchfork and accept that he scales to Mario. But K Rool hasn’t been around for literal years, I don’t think its 100% aight to just scale him that high now because DK beat him up. The chain is weird because it shoots a character who hasn’t been relevant in years by literal infinity because he got wiped off the floor by Mario. I think another example would be using Daisy launching Bowser away with a slap and arguing she now scales above him
consistency isn't the only problem like I said before they are really really debunkable.Let's name one time rhino actually beat thor was when thor's back was turned and stabbed him with a very certain horn. That wouldn't scale him anywhere and in recent years i'm pretty sure most of the time it goes exactly like that or it's is extremely outdated
It's not just because DK beat him up.It's because he is a rival to dk he is quite literally the antithesis to d.K they should be similar in power because of that fact, it's not just because you got beat up by him.Like for example daisy daisy hasn't done anything by herself to justify her scaling the bowser and king K rool recently pulled off some stuff with his new power ups to put him in that conversation of scaling directly to mario
Oh well of course, but like theres a few things that have happened where you can somewhat scale Rhino to Thor, whether theyre not super consistent is something else but the argument is still present. I wouldn’t scale King K to Mario off of DK because I wouldn’t scale Spidey to Thor off of Hulk or Rhino.
Maybe im missing something, but what exactly does get K Rool to Marios level off of DK alone? Is it the King of Rot stuff? Didn’t K Rool specifically need to wish for that form as well? Bananza itself is a prequel to all the Mario stuff anyhow which just cements my argument of Mario scaling being dumb. Even then, I can 100% buy Daisy upscaling Bowser before K Rool = DK > Mario because Daisy gives me a reason to actually buy that scale
It's the most of the time.It's like really bad like even in the scan not only is there no indication that silver surfers getting hurt by these punches but he even says he has no wish to fight rhino at all unless you use very outdated stuff.It's impossible to scale rhino to those high tires
DK has fought mario bowser and if more of the Mario cast it's more than reasonable to argue he's on power with them king K rool is a direct rival to donkey kong throughout his entire history i think you can see where the scaling chain comes from granted you could used the prequel argument which is fine but i don't really buy donkey kong getting that much stronger in a span above few years especially since mario adult bowser lost to a much younger yoshi that is relative with now
Ima be real with you I only used that scan because I thought it was funny. Again though I just don’t entirely agree, especially because I just cannot see King K Rool properly scaling to Mario. But I do wanna reiterate if you do use this scaling line I think its fine. I just don’t buy it as much as others do
The difference is the context: Krillin faced a young Goku who lacked more than half of the crazy shit that current Goku has. K. Rool has faced someone who has in turn repeatedly faced Mario, always showing similar levels.
In DBS Krillin clashed with a SSB Goku, people have been using that to claim Krillin is Complex Multi even though there are multiple multiple holes in the argument
He didn’t “scare” Krillin, he was using it to test Krillins power. Regardless its a stupid scene people use to say Krillin scales to high outer with irrelevant speeds even though thats not the case canonically
That's not what he was doing either. He was using it to see how Krillin would handle a battle against someone he sees as overwhelmingly more powerful than he was. Using that scene is a terrible way of arguing against chain scaling because using that scene actively requires ignoring the context of the scene. It's less chain scaling bad and more media illiteracy bad.
He was using it to see how Krillin would handle a battle against someone he sees as overwhelmingly more powerful than he was.
Yeah, thats literally testing him isnt it? He was seeing how Krillin would handle someone above his paygrade. Aka testing him.
Using that scene is a terrible way of arguing against chain scaling because using that scene actively requires ignoring the context of the scene.
Again, yeah thats what im arguing as well. Scaling K Rool to Mario off DK isnt a solid, fully concrete idea with no arguments against it, kinda like the SSB argument that people still use and bring up to argue Krillin scales to Goku
I fully agree with you bro, if he ain‘t appeared in games where Mario gets (supposedly) cosmic feats, he ain‘t scaling to them, ya can‘t scale diffeerent Mario games to each other because of inconsistencies
Exactly. Mario scaling is so dumb and im someone who genuinely believes you can get Mario to Multi. I mentioned this literal seconds ago but like.. does this mean Lord Fredrick (the final boss of DKCTF) is multi+ because he can tank multiple punches from Donkey Kong? The Tiki masks too? What about Fawful? Does Fawful have multi+ durability?
I mean, I don‘t even agree with multiversal Mario anymore either, but yeah, either ya don‘t scale K. Rool to him, or literally everyone in the verse is as strong as Mario. Take it or leave it.
I mean, I don‘t pick and choose, I just don‘t chainscale throughout different games, I only give the scaling to characters in that game if it‘s where these feats are from. That‘s what I do for literally everything, diffferent comic runs, different video game characters, genuinely everyone is under that rule of mine.
He scales because Donkey Kong is one of the few Mario characters consistently portrayed as a physical equal to Bowser throughout every game they’re in.
I think that’s silly. You can absolutely scale Mario characters to one another if there’s precedent, regardless if one character has committed a cosmic feat or not. There is heavy, heavy precedent for K. Rool either being an equal to or downscaling Bowser. The only problem is that Donkey Kong as a series is much more grounded due to having lesser entires. K. Rool doesn’t really get the chance to do things like get launched around the galaxy at light speeds, or dodge objects that are powerful enough to shake the sun. But that doesn’t mean he shouldn’t narratively be capable of doing as such. Furthermore, you absolutely can scale different Mario games to each other, because it’s the same exact characters every time.
I think that argument is weird because powerscaling takes characters at their full potential unless stated otherwise, and there are dozens of cosmic Mario feats, enough to be consistent.
I mean, I don‘t think there are any of these feats like you mentioned, and neither DK or K. Rool as as strong as Bowser, who even still gets knocked out by castles dropping on him in nearly every game.
Also, nah, inconsistencies between games, like Bowser being weaker or stronger makes it meaningless to try scaling them to each other.
You could use this "inconsistency" argument for literally every video game character ever. It's long been established that DB takes characters at their best, and Mario's best is complex multiversal with the Pure Hearts, as I've gone over many times in the past.
Anyways, yeah? I use inconsistency for Sonic too, but at least the multiversal opps Super Sonic fights have been scarily consistent, just that the ones he fought as Base Sonic are usually not past solar system level.
I just think it's fundamentally impossible to expect "consistency" from a franchise that's been around so long, that ensures that as characters continue to exist they will only get weaker.
The reason DB takes characters at their strongest isn't just because it's cooler, it's because "consistency" is so up for interpretation that it'd be impossible to really do anything, what is "consistent" is subjective ( then again Powerscaling as a whole is subjective )
I would argue Mario Galaxy existing at all sets the precedent for Universe ending shenanigans in the Mario verse.
When is DK really portrayed as Bowsers direct equal though? Things like being the same weight in Mario Kart or being the good version of a Bowser space in Mario Party aren’t really good indicators.
This is just one example. Not only is Bowser physically knocked back, but he—despite being arrogant and, well, Bowser—views DK as enough of a threat to immediately leave quietly. DK’s bio in MP2 also says he thinks he can beat Bowser in a fight. They’re also equals in noncanon material such as Skylanders, showing this is a consistent narrative that all of their writers push.
I mean, I personally scale him to Mario (to a lesser degree but still) but I don’t think it’s outrageous if someone doesn’t. Despite being in the same universe, DK is largely disconnected from Mario outside of spinoff appearances and K.Rool himself had been absent for a long time. Plus, the events of Bananza seem oddly uncertain if it takes place before or after much of Mario games.
The crew actually didn't realize that Spongebob vs SF Aquaman was a stomp at first, or that Spongebob stomped Aquaman so hard. They legitimately thought SF Aquaman had something to give him a chance and/or victory.
As a Knuckles Fan, yeah Lowkey agree with the Knux Square, There's a few I fuck with for personal reasons or thinking they're good, but other then that, yeah, kinda shitty MU Spread-
Just shame of knuckles don't have much New stuff for returning in death battle but after all, terrafin of Skylanders is still best for knuckles in terms of debate and connections personaly (I will never like piccolo vs knuckles, why this become death battle cast for some reason?)
Saying the community is biased against Ben is certainly one of the takes of all time.
People aren't biased against him, it's usually just people shutting down the "Alien X is omnipotent" debaters (and rightfully so) and people wanting to see a matchup that doesn't boil down to "Does Character A beat Alien X"
What they mean is people on this community don't understand kirby as a character, and it leads them into mischaracterizing him, basing him on misconceptions, or focusing way too much in just one aspect while ignoring everything else.
Tldr: Almost nobody here knows what kirby is about besides the "le kills gods for a cake" jokes
I don’t like people who only see Kirby as: Guy who kills gods over food. He’s so much more than that, anyone who has that type of view on Kirby I’m convinced have never actually played the games before.
The one thing I disagree with is that scaling isn't objective, period. There is no objective scaling of a character, only what you personally buy and what you don't.
The Ben slander has seemed to die down quite a bit but I really wish we could just move on I wanna see my boy on the show again, or even other characters from the series.
Agree with all, SPECIALLY the Ben and K. Rool ones. Even when I provide extensive explanations for why Ben should beat X or Y character in this community, I almost always get downvoted anyways cause people in this sub have a despise for Ben that no other sub can match. As for K. Rool, it just makes no sense whatsoever to pretend the guy doesnt directly show to be stronger than DK, Marios original villain who is also stated to be stronger than him physically.
You know what, I actually agree with all takes listed here, at least to some certain degree. Barring the King Rool one, I see validity in all of them (especially the Knuckles one, I don't know why but his matchups are so dull).
still downvoted because you used that Silver GL picture
I think I agree ngl
Kirby really should fight someone that either works well with either
-his lore (so maybe a character with a lot of dream/friendship related stuff or someone related related to Dark matter etc would work well)
-or visually style wise (simple guy with grand cosmic enemies, lot of over the top near toon force styled animations. bright happy environment)
I've always been a fan of Mario as his opponent (who I believe does well in both aspects
with both
-focusing on dream universes,
-Kirby Milky way wishes & Mario Galaxy (being very similar games all around in nearly every aspect)
-both having similar art styles & goofy nature of their franchises
-both characters with heavy focus on abilities
-one being a star child & one being a star warrior (probably both being considered Star Warriors with Kirby being a child)
Seriously though my problem is that I really don’t buy the super high Omega Multi+ Mario stuff, I think its fine if you scale the cast that high, but it becomes a bigger issue when we’re trying to say that King K scales to that stuff. Itd be like arguing a Koopa shell has multi+ durability because it can survive getting stomped on by Mario and Luigi. There’s gonna be a line drawn somewhere and I think we past it when people are unironically trying to argue that Mario somehow can carry every single item like grand stars and white tanookis. Im fine giving Mario his basic items but again, a line’s gotta be drawn somewhere you get me? I hope this is comprehensible enough because its my unfiltered thoughts lol
Dude, DK is straight up scaling Mario, it's been proven multiple times. K. Rool scaling is just like this, especially with his latest game, which follows a cosmology that doesn't stray from what's been shown in other Mario titles.
I can see that you don't see the characters as being at a particularly high level, I can see that. But making an exception for K. Rool is definitely not a possibility.
I don’t have a problem with DK scaling to Mario at all. If you wanna scale him that way then thats fine there’s evidence to back that up.
What I do have a problem with is being like “K Rool scales to high outer because he inhaled one of Donkey Kongs anal hairs and that same hair has a speck of dust on it from Mario’s boot” which is basically what chainscaling is doing. I understand there’s exceptions to be made but me personally I would not scale K Rool to Mario off of DK because then you gotta do the same for a bunch of other characters which ruins the chain. I guess Fawful is also a multiverse buster too
Agreed. I think chain scaling in Mario is pretty god damn dangerous because Mario's strength is incredibly variable throughout the series. There's no continuity between most games.
In some games, Mario dies if a turtle touches him. In others, Mario can tank being in a blackhole. This does not mean a Koopa is solar system level. This means the Mario in Mario Galaxy is just a lot stronger than the Mario in SMW3.
Those Marios, for the sake of powerscaling, are different fucking guys.
How can we scale K Rool to Mario, if we don't know how strong the Mario in the DK Country continuity was when he fought Donkey Kong. We never even met that guy.
Well... sorta? Banaza might be in the same continuity as Odyssey, but that's a topic of theory, and that's too many steps into speculation for me. And Odyssey Mario isn't outerversal or some shit, so my point still stands.
Seriously though my problem is that I really don’t buy the super high Omega Multi+ Mario stuff, I think its fine if you scale the cast that high, but it becomes a bigger issue when we’re trying to say that King K scales to that stuff.
Well I don't actually scale Mario characters that high (even with the Pure Hearts) I scale Base Characters to Universal to multiple times Universal, if that makes it any better for you.
Ehh I think you should scale them to wall level fr if not you’re a dirty lil wanker
Seriously though it doesn’t matter how you scale them, at least to me. People need to realize that some people aren’t gonna like what we do and thats fine, yknow? Its why I dont scale K Rool to Mario fully. I know people will and I don’t agree, but ill never be like “YOU CANT SCALE YOU CANT SCALE WANKER WANKER POLICE CALLED” because we’re here to have fun, not yell at each other
I don't really think Kirby vs Rimuru is a result of Kirby's flanderization, as the creator of the MU.
"God killers" or whatever is kinda part of it, but I made the matchup way earlier in Rimuru's story when Rimuru being above island level was only due to a novel that like three people cared about or an over-time feat for a non-standard form.
For me it's always just because they've always had really similar powers (can eat enemies to gain their powers and also summon them), and said powers are unique enough that I think a "same powers" matchup is good, Combined with both being cute blob things.
I also really like it for the potential. You can have it be a swordfight, a summon battle, an elemental fight, and more; plus you can get a really good sense of escalation due to Kirby being often depicted as incredibly strong and Rimuru's absolutely batty list of abilities.
I think both sides of the K. Rool point have a point but otherwise yeah I agree. Also, the Kirby point is very accurate. I thought powerscaling fans would avoid falling into the “killing gods for cake” thing but I was wrong.
I do agree with this, I only really have a problem with people saying Mario is as strong as characters that are literally said and shown to be stronger than him (how the fuck do people still think Mario is as strong as Bowser and DK?)
Do you mean physical strength or just power in general? Because Bowser and DK have higher lifting strength of course but Bowser, who is stronger than DK, is consistently beat up by Mario.
Physical strength and AP, Mario can fight and beat them but he relies on more than raw strength alone. A lot of Mario's fights with Bowser and DK are like David VS Goliath so I don't know how Mario is somehow on the exact same level as them in raw strength. Mario is a tuff guy but he's more of a tactical fighter than a straight boxer.
I'm going just with the takes I agree or want to comment, or the ones I disagree:
Sudge take:
I think the mu it's in a good state to be made an ep about. Though I understand the take, I don't really mind if it happend already
616 Spiderman take:
I disagree, mostly because I like Batman and TMNT (that is kinda guilty pleasure, but still I fw the idea lol)
Debate does matter take:
mfeamfeajfnkaefkejafejaf, idk what to say here. I understand the take of the people that say that. HOWEVER, and while I do agree it's important, it isn't really that necessary nor I would be checking a mu if it's debatable or not (HenryTSC is peak and it isn't that debatable)
K Rool objectively scales to Mario:
Welcome to scaling, everyone can have a different view on where a character scales. If people don't want to scale him to Mario then fantastic!!! Though I do scale him
I mean I like Kamen Rider Nigo and Skitter, but I won't deny that Batman is his best (granted Skitter is kind of a guilty pleasure and considering the fact that you value debate I can understand why you wouldn't like it)
I also heavily agree with Batman deserving a 5th return, the only Batman episode I really liked was Iron Man and even then that focused way too much on the Hellbat.
I don't want batman to come back because his track record on the show already sucks. If they're just gonna feed my guy to someone who's just gonna counter all his shit I'd rather he stay gone forever.
You know I actually do agree with a fair bit of these especially the part about the importance of debates
I'm sorry but homelander versus Omni man is 2 points worse than it should be because no one in their f****** mind thought that homelander had a chance
Quick question though how does King k rool scale to Mario and if I hear anything about smash ultimate I'm going to flood your feed with murder drone matchups I swear to God
The only answer would be scaling off of DK who you would have to scale off of Mario though DK hasn’t really ever fought Mario since Dream Team so it’s hard to argue he scales to peak Mario.
Mechanical lizard piece is extremely personally exciting.
I do agree with the Knuckles point, truthfully. I do feel his spread is better than Sonic, Tails, and Amy's, because those tend to just be "hero with friends", "iPad kid" and "girl", basically. I can at least like, Sort Of be into Knuckles VS Piccolo, but, yes, I do feel his matchup spread is very weak, personally. Shadow has a really cool spread with matchups like Cloud, Ryuko and Mewtwo, and Surge has Bass, and then everyone else has "legacy" as their best matchup, sadly.
I agree with the Spider-Man point, as well.
Same for Batman. I would honestly really love for them to do Batman VS Solid Snake as a unique, equal-stats, stealth-focused episode.
how does Ness even have fate manip? all I remember is him having a statement of "carrying the world's fate on his shoulders" which is very not literal. even then Frisk has blatant fate manip of their own nowadays so that would just be equal at best
Eh, the truth was absorbed by him alongside Magicant, and it‘s literally fate itself. If you don‘t buy that, then there‘s no explanation for his death being overwritten into a bad dream in the Cave of the Past (The point of no return where Ness‘ death is irreversible), the literally 0,01% chance of victory against Giygas happening and the player being summoned by Paula.
Hm, that‘s fair, but Giygas having acausality type 2, which resists fate means that Ness‘ fate manip is even stronger, unless Frisk also deals with such foes. Idk if Omega Flowey or GoH Asriel have that kinda acausality tho. If they do, it‘s a stats battle between Ness and Frisk, which I‘m torn on for how to scale Frisk exactly
DETERMINATION works by giving control of the timeline to whoever has more of it, letting them dictate fate and such. Frisk has so much DETERMINATION, they were able to rival seven Human souls worth of it, even having the True Reset, which ignores the acausality of other DETERMINATION users. where does Giygas having type 2 Acausality even come from?
Giygas mainly just… not existing anywhere in time but at one point. He transcends the entire cosmology (which may bring type 4 as well? I don‘t really know the qualifications for that one tbh) and only exists at one point in time, usually even outside of it. He also controls the time axis ig and can use hax across all of time and space.
Where does the acausality for the others come from? And how does it work exactly? As far as I‘m aware, Frisk can be defeated and the SAVE and LOAD just relods back to an earlier point in time, and even so in the GoH Asriel battle, implying that he is also bound by time (which Giygas isn‘t).
I don't think it's said anywhere that Giygas transcends the cosmology or really implied, at best he has like universal feats but that's kinda it. I also don't even think it's shown anywhere that Ness ever used any fate manip against Giygas (assuming he even has it), he kinda just killed him and he died
Frisk and Asriel are both capable of acting and using the SAVE and LOAD systems after the timeline has been destroyed, so they definitely aren't bound by time. Frisk and Flowey are also able to retain memories after the Reloads, which grants Acausality at the very least as they're unaffected by changes to the past
and if it comes down to stats... Frisk just kinda wins hard lol
Ness never killed Giygas??? Did you even play EarthBound? Also, Giygas transcends space-time and all existence, numerous statements back it up, he‘s an incomprehensible living dimension of darkness and already destroyed the universe in the future. He‘d logically transcend Magicant (which Ness absorbed), and via every human having one (As stated by Itoi) there‘d be infinite via infinite universes and timelines. Giygas also was visually implied to be halfway through transcending the game, needing the irl player to pray him away. Transcending the game implies already being beyond it’s cosmology. Also, Ness absorbing Magicant appears to be universal, so that‘s neat!
The Hypergoner didn‘t destroy the timeline, Napstablook was just fine, the barrier was still there after the Hypergoner and the „purging the timeline“ bit was about what Asriel talked about the entire fight long, resetting it to zero and making everyone forget about Frisk. Napstablook‘s entire existence also debunks that belief.
Ness casually beats up magical skyscrape-sized dinosaurs, and in the novel which removes gameplay limitations, one-shot auto-wins against Carbon Dog, the third-last boss in the game (only before Ness‘ Nightmare and Giygas), and that boss drastically upscales those dinos. Only LV 20 Frisk is above that in AP, and it‘s still up to debate on if they‘re just uni+ or multiversal. Ness‘d have the advantage via absorbing Magicant tho.
yeah Giygas is described like an eldrich horror, that doesn't really imply transcendence. neither does being a living dimension. and should Giygas transcend EVERY Magicant? does he really interact with all of them? afaik he rivals Ness after he absorbs his Magicant, which would be weird if he was as strong as EVERY Magicant
the Hyper Goner blatantly did absorb the timeline. Napstablook being fine is because Asriel recreated the timeline after the fight which we straight up see, you're confusing them being unaffected by the absorption as a gag as an actual serious anti-feat. the Barrier being unaffected is also meaningless as that was a spell that had to be specifically broken, and would naturally scale to the same level of power as the Seven Human SOULs. it would also be stupid for Asriel to claim "enough messing around!" only to continue messing around after. killing Frisk and obtaining the True Reset would reset everyone's memories to zero, which was his whole plan. none of this contradicts the timeline being destroyed
Ness beating up dinosaurs means nothing compared to Frisk. Frisk has very blatant low multi feats even without Asriel. Ness doesn't really get past baseline uni MFTL+ even with Magicant as he doesn't really scale to higher stuff like the 4-D shockwaves
Don't habe Twitter so I can't even if I would Want it.
And like I agree with Bowser Loosing Admittedly
I don't know how he scaled Mario (and Sonic) but Frankly I wouldn't be Surprised if his Scaling for Bowser is Reasonable. Given Mario as a Series is MASSIVLY wanked.
I disagree and Think they did Wank Bowser A Bit. (Especially The speed Feat they Used was Awfull) they have Done Worse but The Bowser Scaling was on the Wanky Side. (I Generally Disagree with Most of DBs Scaling tho.)
This ties into Silverfans point about not having to buy high ends for both characters. If he buys Eggman being stronger than it’s his opinion. Just as there are people that scale Bowser higher than him too.
The reasons were, to put it nicely, a complete joke. Your reasons were blatantly being more generous for the scaling of one character than the other (pretty sure that strawman about how you can buy high ends for one character but not the other was about people saying that sort of thing).
Like, the feat you used for Zelda was chainscaling her to an off screen feat (that wasn't even mentioned in any game) done by the goddesses (ignoring the fact that her scaling to them contradicts the entire franchise) because she defeated null, a character who sealed them off screen, in a franchise where weaker characters sealing stronger ones happens all the time. Compared to that, peach scaling to Super Dimentio without the pure hearts might as well be the most blatant thing ever (taking hits from him before the pure hearts even came back, beating Bleck when the pure hearts didn't even affect the characters you're playing has, the fact that the only mention of the hearts "giving them power" was immediately after they got healed with no change in stats)
No one has an issue with buying high ends for one character but not the other, but there is an issue when the feat you accept is significantly more questionable than something you don't. If I said Omni-Man beats Frieza because I buy the sun disk feat and use the old "Frieza destroys planets by destroying their core" excuse I have seen some people use, I would get called biased. Not because I didn't buy high ends for both, but because one was way more questionable than the other.
With most of them being dowmplays of Mario scaling and Peach’s hax.
Not everything you dislike is downplay btw❤️❤️❤️
No, just the BIG one that scale to the hole cosmology, someone like Waluigi doesn't get that scaling ... I think.
Only Super Dimentio and Mario Peach and Bowser with the pure heart specifically if the ruleset gives them scale to it, ain't no way you just said waluigi might scale to it💔
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u/BakerGotBuns Sorry, was that important? 27d ago
"Go cry me a river"
"Wah wah go cry"
Besides the unnecessary way of writing, I agree with your thoughts.