Yknow what, for the Paper Mario take…that’s completely fair. As a big defender of Paper Mario vs Yuu, that is the main issue with the matchup in my opinion.
Paper Mario is from a different world, but don't confuse that as the events of the game not being canon. From what I have read on PM canonicity, it is mostly canon to the wider Mario universe since characters, events, and locations which originate from the PM games go on to appear in the mainline games. In canon, these are stories that are told in the form of a story book which also occur in parallel to the Paper World, and any paper-exclusive ability likely had some adjacent-ability in mainline. (This reddit post explains it better than I can https://www.reddit.com/r/Marioverse/comments/10ogc2y/yes_paper_mario_is_canon/)
iirc, the first game, TTYD, and Super ARE Mario. Sticker Star and onwards, we are following a different Mario. Hence why we see Paper Mario in Paper Jam with regular Mario.
The reason composting Cell is done for Cell vs Metal Sonic is because it's a complete one-sided slaughter without it. Like it's done that way to keep some suspense on the outcome
I think that's just not a fun reason to composite either of them. I don't see the issue with just letting Metal Sonic win the matchup, because if you composite them and then Cell wins it just feels like it robs Metal fans of the W (I hold this opinion somewhat to Trunks vs Silver, but I think Heroes vs Archie was an interesting discussion on its own anyway to justify the episode regardless).
For the record I'm specifically talking about people who include stuff like Archie and Heroes for Metal vs Cell btw, I think Toei Cell is perfectly fine for the matchup.
If both are composited and Cell wins I think that's still fair. Sure it's fine if Metal wins canon vs canon but when it's Multiversal and infinite speed vs Solar system and MFTL it's boring and it does a disservice to Cell fans by just feeding him to Metal. Compositing is vital for this match up being anything more than a one sided slaughter and a waste of an episode
Compositing them really doesn't do anything for either but make it debatably fair which you could argue otherwise for both stomping the other still
The animation potential also suffers since composite metal is not going to be using half the stuff he could use in the fight because cell doesn't really have much to
compensate with
If the episode can excel in every other way it's not a waste of an episode considering but sacrificing everything else for the debate makes it less
The fact that Metal can't use every power possible doesn't make the animation less interesting lots of characters are super great for a battle while still having too large an arsenal to really show it all.
Like adding more doesn't make the episode worse it just means that Metal doesn't just completely out hax and out stat by such a degree that everyone sees the result from a mile away.
Notably by the way all your points are about Metal. You don't address that with just their canon versions Cell is completely cheated out of having an actual chance in let's be real probably the only episode that he would get by being fed to a different character. Canon vs Canon does a bigger disservice to Cell than Composite vs Composite does for Metal
If It's only going to use the components from metal from his original source material then what would be the point of compositing him anyway besides again making the fight debatably closer? Again neither of them get really anything from being composited in this fight besides cell growing bigger neither of them really gain anything from this.Besides making the fight debatably better which I'll get to an a bit
let's talk about the debate because compositing them doesn't make it close sell doesn't get much from heroes he got beat up by vegeta In base his best feat with the dark dragon ball is beating up ss kid Gohan and then when we talk about his other forms he was able to fight with and I guess somewhat keep up with a fusion between trunks and vegeta along with this other guy so you can argue be scales to those high ends and metals even more muddy since his only real meta to match up to cell x is assuming archie superforms don't get any stronger so he could scale to the higher end stuff and again It assumes that the events of heroes went the exact same in archie as it did in the games
Adding more stuff makes the scaling it's more confusing and unless you really assume some stuff for metal is the fight not even fair to begin with it would be the exact same just for the other side of the debate
Because cell at least gets to use his full Arsenal and has good dialogue potential i could be argued stronger than most of metals transformations comparing that comp what takes away connections, takes away from the animation and arguably doesn't do anything to fix the debate problem but just flip it it's clearly bad
Thats more reasonable, but Archie Metal does get scaling to characters from Archie making his stats equal to those of Xeno Cell, and haxwise he turned into Overlord even in Archie, which he can only do after copying the abilities of a bunch of characters, including Sonic and Shadows, so he does have access to Archies chaos force powers too.
My issue with archie metal scaling that it's based off of a lot of assumptions
We not only have no idea if Archie gave the same statement metal being nearly invulnerable to the super team's attacks but it also assumes that the superforms didn't just get stronger over the years considering if all the good stuff that he would get from archie happened years after heroes
And yes, you would have their abilities.We don't know how he used them though which is why it leads to a lot of assumptions
This is always one of the worst takes regarding this match up. Like really? No one cared about this match up before then? And you act like Death Battle would actually have it play out like that if they actually do the episode.
I didn’t say that, yes the matchup existed, but it mostly faded over time, then bowser vs eggman made it popular again, even more than before, because of how cool metal looked in it, and yes part of the appeal for a lot of people is mostly just metal steamrolling cell, since bowser vs eggman was made there are plenty of animations of metal absolutely obliterating cell with him barely having room to fight back, and the one time cell won that matchup on something (fan battle) people talked about it here and unironically 90% of the comments were about how bad the research was and completely ignored the actual quality and effort put into the episode simply because cell won
I mean, people also had a problem with how Metal was written as in he just talks like a robot even saying "error error" as he dies which isn't Metal. So it's not really the research itself, it was how Metal was represented as a whole that rubbed people the wrong way. The poor research and misinfo was just also sadly part of it. And you know that's kinda how it goes when people heavily disagree with something. No one really talked about the actual fight in Omnidock when that dropped, everything was about the results. That's kinda how it goes when there's a controversial result like that. And like. Again. You act like Death Battle themselves would just have Cell get his shit rocked for the whole animation. Hell, they'd probably just have him be winning the whole time until Metal just kills him, they kind of have a bad habit with that.
Yes but my point is the vast majority of the comments were ignoring the effort and other positive qualities the episode had, not all of them, hell I even saw someone mention no one was talking about the quality and someone outright said it was hard to focus on the quality when the research is so blatantly bad, which just feels incredibly disrespectful to the creator, also my complaint is less with how death battle might handle it and more my overall experience with how the matchup has been handled by others, and it looks like despite what everyone says, at least a very good portion of the appeal of this matchup for people is metal beating cell
Just saying “cool fight” is kinda reductive, there are plenty of cool moments throughout the fight that you can mention and talk about (the intro, the different styles like the manga style, cell using moves he never got to use in the main series) there ARE things you can talk about but almost no one was willing to purely because of the verdict
If all the good moments are just "well there's this moment in the fight" then it is just cool fight. And like... that's stuff people want in Cell Metal anyways tbf.
Dimensional tiering is a bit tricky. It’s hard to tell whether the person is referring to “dimensions above dimensions” or spatial dimensions specifically.
18
u/will4whStill haha I’m surprised, you don’t recognize your old home26d ago
Doesn't help that dimensions can be completely different things or work completely differently depending on what franchise it is as well. Like in one it could just be a different universe but then you have stuff like dimensions in DC.
12
u/FezzihMy matchup isn't popular enough for its own flair26d ago
I'm talking less from a debate standpoint and moreso just how weird it is. I get that Goku loses even with it and they wanted to have some equivalent to Superman being a canon composite, but I don't think those are reasons enough when it's still explicitly a non-canon version of Goku. I know it wasn't intended this way but it comes across more as a pity inclusion for Goku rather than something that was actually considered from the start. I think if they wanted to include it, it should've just been a black box or two in the conclusion.
I also think the transition into it in the analysis is super jarring. Plus, the only thing they say about it is what feats Goku gets from it, nothing about the story of the game or how each of the feats they brought up came about. I'd say it's the only part of Goku vs Superman 3 I dislike.
Comp Metal vs Comp Cell is less about not letting Metal Sonic win, and more about not having Cell get brutally slaughtered in a one-sided battle that makes Omni-Man vs Homelander look fair by comparison, especially since this could be his only appearance on the show. Cell is one of the quintessential Dragon Ball Villains, and a lot of people really like him, so to see him get fed to Metal Sonic doesn’t sound like a lot of fun to them.
It’s a similar sentiment to how people felt about Master Chief vs DoomSlayer. Even without Lore, DoomSlayer slaughters Master Chief with no issue, and to see a beloved character they like be pit against someone he has no chance of winning against, it puts a sour taste in their mouth. Especially because Master Chief isn’t likely to return to Death Battle.
Now, of course, this doesn’t mean that if Metal Sonic vs Cell does happen without composting, that Cell will never return to the show again, but with a MU spread like his, it can feel that way to a lot of fans.
So basically, people cant just except the fact that a character may get brutally stomped, no matter how thematic their matchup is? You really need to get your priorities straightened out when you think that.
I mean, yeah. Cell means a lot to them, and to see him get absolutely clobbered in what could be his only appearance on the show isn’t appealing to them. And that’s their prerogative.
Also, Metal isn’t really that much more thematic for Cell than any of his other MUs. Zero, Ultron, Sephiroth: really, just pick about any artificially created character who turned against their creators, and you’ve got the perfectly thematic Cell MU, and those are a lot fairer.
While I disagree with a couple, I agree with most, specially the K. Rool one, im actually working on a post on why K. Rool scaling to Mario characters by default is just common sense while Hook scaling to Mickey or Sora just isnt the same.
Yeah my opinion is that while K. Rool doesn't interact with Mario in canon much, he consistently interacts with Donkey Kong, who himself consistently is a part of the Mario main cast. Meanwhile, no one in the Peter Pan series actually interacts with Mickey or anyone else that much, they just happen to meet a couple of times.
Scaling him to Sora is especially weird cause he kinda does fuck all in Kingdom Hearts. It almost feels intentional that you only ever fight him as guys who have next to no experience at the moment. Even Zeus moving those stars around was after Hook’s last chronological moment of relevance.
Hell, Maleficent is hardly a factor these days, but at least she has a 3D model in KH3.
But, I know I’m preaching to the choir. The way I see it, giving Hook weird stuff like the Jake show is like, allowed, but also a perfectly valid reason not to be interested in the matchup.
I think Jake and the Neverland Pirates is perfectly fine, as it is entirely within the world of Peter Pan already. Same with stuff like the Tinkerbell movies or Peter Pan video games. Where people lose me is when they start to include stuff that is outside the world of Peter Pan, like House of Mouse or the Mickey Mouse comics.
that is outside the world of Peter Pan, like House of Mouse or the Mickey Mouse comics.
Eh idk. It's not Disney has a super strict Canon or whatever. Plus stuff like house of mouse reference a lot of the movies a bunch so it's not like super taboo.
The problem with spidy vs Batman is that Batman relies mostly on stealth, prep, and surprise. You can’t use prep in these battles and even if you could spider-man knows how to use prep very well and stealth and surprise is void due to the spider sense. Not to mention spider man just only needs one hit to kill Batman
Based Paper Mario takes (even if they’re lukewarm)
I don’t see people doing this much now, but everywhere I looked people tried to separate Mario from Paper Mario and the Mario & Luigi games. Saying: “ThEy ArEn’T CaNoN!” Like, they are all the 25 year old red plumber, they aren’t the Archie Sonic or Manga Kirby equivalent of Mario, they ARE Mario.
I think arguing about the canon of Mario is hilarious because by starting the argument in the first place we've already put more thought into it than Miyamoto and Nintendo have. Mario is treated like a cartoon character whose world can have contradictions in it and that's fine, because the world itself changes to better fit the story and gameplay.
That isn't to say that everything ever is on the table for Mario, but the Paper Mario games makes clear references to other series, and vice versa, and Nintendo clearly considers the character in these games as Mario, so I don't really get what the fuss is about. I get that Paper Jam exists, but like, different versions of Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck have met each other and they're still considered the same, why not Mario?
Death Battle has thrived for the last 14 years without making a second Harry Potter episode, I wouldn't call it a punishment to say you aren't doing something you already weren't doing
Of course, im not saying they aren't. But we have plenty of good HP match ups that should be done. I don't want Rowling to get shit, but Death Battle shouldn't hold off on a match-up because the author is a cunt. I love a lot of Voldemorts match up, im still a huge fan of Dumbledore vs. Gandalf. Plus, we don't know when she'll die, and knowing our luck or her luck up to you to pick, Death Battle will somehow disappear before she kicks the bucket. Of course, it's just an opinion, what ever makes the community happy, I think Death Battle will go for. At least when it comes to that woman.
I still enjoy the books and still have my original philosophers' stone book back from when I was a kid. They are still good, the art shouldn't burn. The artist may, but I still love the first three books and movies.
While I do understand where you are coming from. I don't fully agree with it. Sure, Fuck J.K. Rowling and the shit she has done, but should that really eliminate any reasons for Harry Potter or any of its characters returning to DB? By Similar logic, should franchises created by controversial people not be allowed into Death Battle? If that's the case, then Series such as Ruroni Kenshin (due to being convicted of CP material) and Minecraft (due to Notch and his behavior) could even be allowed? I know I might sound insane, but it's a genuine question about whether a franchise creator's action should affect a whole fanbase altogether. Sometimes it's fine to separate the creator from their creation. Like everyone who has been making Harry Potter media in the last decade (Hogwarts Legacy, The HBO Series, etc.)
* Not that I think a 2nd Harry Potter episode should happen, but I don't think it shouldn't be allowed. Match-ups like Dumbledore vs Gandalf are still popular and could still happen (Despite both franchises being dormant for a decade), and the actions of J.K. shouldn't hinder the crew from maybe doing the episode in the future.
PAPER MARIO IS THE SAME PERSON AS GAME MARIO. THANK YOU CORNDOG MAN I LOVE YOU.
Then again... As the world's biggest Cell vs Metal Sonic hater... Hmmm.
Nah Mario glaze comes above all, also as unfortunate as it is, unless JK Rowling is older then I think, I don't think the show is still gonna be going for as long as she lives tbh, I think we have to just bite the bullet and realize she's not benefiting from a small web show ( though she is an absolute POS )
It's so borrriiiinnnnng, it's a similar issue I have to Goku vs Sonic, "oh wouldn't it be cool if Metal copied a bunch of Dragon Ball moves", buddy, if you want to see two characters with super forms use Dragon ball moves on each other, I might have found the perfect show for you.
I don't think DB and genuine HP fans should be punished for her bullshit, as much as it hurts to support her in any minute way, she's got all the money she could ever want, a webshow including one of her characters won't do anything to her overall earnings so I say let the characters in.
Though it is worth pointing out i completely understand why people may be uncomfortable with it so if they did confirm HP isn't coming back for that reason, I wouldn't be mad.
Basic transphobe stuff and being an asshole. I've seen artist get less flak and having their work demonized when they've done and said significantly worse shit (Kanye, Dahvie Vanity, hell even Ezra fucking Miller).
I really disagree with that Cell vs Metal take tbh, I don't mind if my preferred loses, but one-sided matchups are just not fun and don't really give as much to discuss (see the waiting periods for Chiefslayer and Kylemon)
Only disagree with Paper Mario, agree with pretty much everything else.
(Side Note: I know its fine using Legends of Awesomeness for Po and I'll take any buffs I can get but DAMN do I hate how the show kinda flanderises most of the cast) [It did have some concepts I think are absolute bangers tho]
That’s the give and take with Kung Fu Panda unfortunately, if you want OP feats and abilities the trade off is lower quality source material. At least imo, power to you if you enjoy that stuff
I have a really hot take but devil Artemis cell deserves to appear on the show vs smg4 before any version of cannon or non cannon version of cell.Devil Artemis has done so much for death battle that he deserves it and it’s a version of cell that has a HUGE power set like stands powerups and guns.
I disagree with some but agree with lots of others. The one I’m mixed on is dimensional tiering. I find a lot of the time people are really on all sides of the spectrum. More so that they either don’t buy a lot of arguments inherently or they go the opposite route and tend to accept anything as higher dimensional even if it has little supporting evidence and leads to a lot of instances of stacking higher infinities in ways that really don’t work.
I used this, but also this one doesn't have a transparent background so I had to cut out the white myself. I'm sure someone else has one with a transparent background though
I agree with the Harry Potter point. I disagree with first the Paper Mario point, and I agree with the compositing point. I understand the appeal of trying to make a verdict closer, in one's opinion, but, I feel it never really works out. Verdicts are subjective, and using Roxas VS Axl as an example, it feels spiteful towards Roxas to give Axl non-canon material with the specific intent of him having a better chance at beating Roxas. It feels like a "Free Space" buff that only one character is being allowed because of what someone feels is closer, so to speak.
You also have cases of people using Archie versions of SONIC characters to make a verdict "closer", whom are literally different people from an entirely different world. It feels disregarding of the character themself to say "well just replace them with the stronger one", when "stronger" is effectively just headcanon/unofficial powerscaling, in this context.
Regardless of whether the HP take is fair or not idk how it would return to the show when there aren't any interesting matchups as far as I'm concerned
I strongly disagree with the raven vs Phoenix take.
Most of ravens strongest variants that would in theory be stronger than the Phoenix force are non standard.
Damn, this is the one that comes closest to me agreeing with all the takes. The only one I don’t is Raven vs. Phoenix, but that’s a pretty spicy take tbh
It’s not that I think dimensional tiering is complicated, I just think the argument doesn’t make sense in the fact that it presupposes things like infinite more mass and energy on higher dimensions. There is no concrete evidence to suggest that to be the case plus games and other media use the concept of higher dimensions usually differently and in many cases kinda just treat them as another universe that is more dangerous.
Eeehhh, disagree with Goku not getting his Heroes stuff for Goku vs Superman 2023.
Because let’s be real here, nobody was going to buy Canon Goku changing much, if anything, regarding what few advantages he has over Superman. Even the arguments for Canon Dragon Ball having infinite-immeasurable speed without some mentioning of Non-Canon and Heroes/Xenoverse related stuff would be seen as glazing/wanking to some even though it isn’t, so using CC Goku to give him a more reasonable fighting chance and matching up to Superman’s low ends made more sense.
What part ( I am nothing rewatiching the entire video )
At most they made mentions like the immeasurable speed thing (which could be achieved using the hit's time stop or the speed beyond instant teleportation), all the heroes stuff was left out.
All the things Goku did in the episode are things that could be done in main Canon.
The analyses encompassed more things from Xenoverse not heroes, like the ability to teleport through time
My issue with Paper Mario being the main series Mario is that Paper Jam shows that they are two different characters. If Nintendo wanted them to be the same character why are they shown as different characters? I can understand that the Paper Mario series is just stories written about real Mario adventures but my issue with it is that there is obviously a lot of embellishment in the story compared to the theoretical adventure. The biggest example is Paper Mario being able to fold himself into different forms, Mario has never done that in any of the others games, only in Paper Mario. If we can't trust everything in the Paper Mario series why consider any of it?
I just don't buy Paper Mario being the same as Mario.
the simon thing is just out right wrong. basicly every gurren lagann fan i encounter is the same. its like a hive mind of people that will get mad at a person for not likeing gurren lagann.
dimesional teiring is actualy easy
well thats because it can be simplifyed to bigger number is stronger. it ignores how they work in actual theoretical physics and math to go with a psudo scince explination that only aplys to a few series. its rarely if ever used for good faith arguments. just to wank what ever character people want as high as posible.
44
u/No-Sugar-8155 Paper Mario Vs Yuu enjoyer 26d ago
Yknow what, for the Paper Mario take…that’s completely fair. As a big defender of Paper Mario vs Yuu, that is the main issue with the matchup in my opinion.