Given that fusion wasnt an option despite how Gogeta should be millions of times stronger than Moro, it seems that making contact is more important. After all, Planet Moro should also be leagues stronger than Vegeta, and Vegeta could still affect him.
As more proof, Moro73 couldnt even damage UI Goku, and literally hurts himself trying to damage him. Yet they still didnt consider fusing into Gogeta to fight Moro73, despite how Moro73 should be even less capable of damaging blue gogeta, due to forced spirit fission. If Gogeta would have been just as if not more indestructable, and the only reason they didnt fuse was FSF, then contact seems to be the only restriction.
For sheer stats, I would say Super. It's powered by the same power source as Super Sonic, and has fought alongside the form in canon. There is also no known evidence that Super nor the Emeralds are more generous to Sonic than anyone else, so to speak. So, Super would give Knuckles the same boost as it does for Sonic.
This. Plus it doesnāt matter if he only did it then, he can still do it now, as evidenced by Frontiers, and he would scale to full power Modern Super forms.
I agree. For me, I don't feel the characters change in power over time, but even if they did, Knuckles does have access to the Chaos Emeralds. So, even if a younger Knuckles, in that scenario, would be weaker, Knuckles just isn't that age, anymore.
I don't feel I agree with 16 beating Omega. Omega has repeatedly shown to keep up with other base level Sonic characters, and is even depicted as stronger than Shadow. To my understanding, those that voted on this believe Base Metal can defeat Cell, so, I'm not sure what is going on with Omega VS 16, truthfully.
The same thing for Gamma VS 16. Gamma was canonically able to hold their own against Sonic, and their reproductions could serve as a threat as well.
Actually, this applies to a few other matchups, as well.
Knuckles VS Piccolo is seen as close, but not Knuckles VS Granolah and Jiren? At this point in the timeline, wouldn't Piccolo be more powerful than those two? They don't really have any hax that would be a notable risk to Knuckles that Piccolo lacks, to my understanding. Knuckles scales to Sonic directly, so, I understand his matchups being in "close" along with Sonic's, but only one of them is.
Perfect Chaos VS Omega Shenron, as well. Sonic VS Goku is listed as close, but Perfect Chaos, whom has canonically matched Super Sonic in combat twice, and uses the same power source to exist as he does, is marked as solidly losing to a non-Super character. That feels odd, truthfully.
I do know of the theory that GT takes place post-Super, so, maybe that's the intention there, for Omega Shenron's scaling?
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I do also disagree with Vegeta beating Shadow, personally. I assume it is due to Forced Spirit Fission, but as the name and story imply, it is a technique specifically designed to extract foreign Spirit energy, of which Chaos energy is not. I know of Vegeta mentioning Namakian Fusion as something FSF could affect, but we have zero indication that isn't a Ki-based technique, so, FSF still only affects Ki, to our understanding. And, as directly stated by Moro, Forced Spirit Fission requires the user to physically harm the target, with each hit. The Super state has passive invulnerability, which shuts down FSF as a wincon off of that.
( Page from Chapter 62 of Dragon Ball Super, "Edge of Defeat". )
There are multiple more reasons, but, I don't feel FSF has any solid shot at affecting Super Shadow, whatsoever.
Shadow can also physically match Super-level stats when he is 'maxed out' on his Doom Powers, which are an innate, biological enhancements activated by Black Doom. If Shadow has his Doom Powers in the matchup, then Vegeta has to deal with Super Shadow stats, regardless of if Super is actually a present factor in battle, and regardless of if Forced Spirit Fission could play a role in that.
The vote was not just for based metal , but even that metal is way higher on the totem pole
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u/FezzihMy matchup isn't popular enough for its own flair14d ago
To my understanding, those that voted on this believe Base Metal can defeat CellĀ
Why do you think people believe that? There's people who think Base Metal is not enough to beat Perfect Cell and need his other forms too, people scale different some characters.Ā
If you think they are wrong for It, that's a different conversation.
When it comes to that matchup, on this subreddit, anytime I see discussion of the verdict that goes into details, I feel I don't frequently see many say that Metal needs Super and/or Overlord to beat Cell. I won't say that's a majority, as there isn't a solid way to gauge the percentage belief of people, but it does seem frequent enough to be possible, for this page/post's votings.
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u/FezzihMy matchup isn't popular enough for its own flair14d ago
It depends on what people are using tbh, if they only sticking to Cell Manga, Base Metal is enough.Ā
Toei Cell tho...
Maybe the people you see on this subreddit are using Solar System Cell instead of his Crazy scaling from Toei.Ā
That's a guess tho, can't really say what people are thinking. For 16 vs Omega, people probally confused him with Gamma, and Toei 16 kinda wins against him.Ā
I do personally feel both win against Toei 16, though, the accidental confusion between Gamma and Omega is a common thing, from what I have seen both in and out of powerscaling. That is very possible, in this context, as you mentioned.
There's a few Dragon Ball W's that could be put in debatable and I think Game Sonic beats Canon Goku pretty badly but not a single one of them ? Really ? Feel like that's a little far fetched.
The only matchup I see on there as even slightly debatable is E-102 Gamma vs Android 16, and thatās SOLEY because Gamma doesnāt have Modern Sonic scaling, only Adventure Era scaling up to Battle. Every other one? The Dragon Ball characters just get out statted and out haxedš¤·š»āāļø
I do not like the propaganda of the moving a continent feat being fucking solar system level because the size of the planet is inconsistent so Gamma loses for me. Plus, 16 just having like every tertiary advantage that matters.
This is literally a case of them using any number not truly knowing the full scope of what they're saying like it's literally in the damn thing that it's meant to be city level but even so, Brown Dwarf is still beaten by 16.
That's literally just map inconsistencies. I can use this for ALLLLLL the landmasses that aren't visible on the globe from Odyssey too but I think that's just dumb
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u/DatKidZ364 The Traveler vs Nier šš”ļø 14d ago
Clear version cause reddit