I just think it's funny

[u/No-Entertainment5599]

[u/itownshend17]

What happens when your verse gets capped at 12D vs what happens when your verse gets scaled to multiple layers above infinite dimensional. Literally, Banner won purely cause Ultima (based on where DB scaled both) could never reach the level of the cosmology where Hulk respawns and so he couldnt destroy the green door and stop Hulks revives, meanwhile 12D Kyle is barely above 11D Simon in terms of power, and so Simons power growth would make him surpass Kyle quickly.

[u/Nin_Saber → u/itownshend17]

This is honestly why I wouldn't mind another cosmic tier DC VS Marvel fight because I'm genuinely curious if they still buy their cosmologies being comparable. Not only did they seemingly scale DC lower in Simon VS Kyle but they even buffed Marvel with the layers explained in the results. Like, they added so many layers that you can barely even see "Astral Plane" in there lol.

[u/Someidiot31 → u/Nin_Saber]

I just noticed they put the white hot room at the third highest highest point in marvel cosmology, if that's the case how the fuck did raven beat Jean again 😭

[u/69-is-a-great-number → u/Someidiot31]

That entire episode is filled with blatantly incorrect statements and very bizzare interpretations, to put it (somewhat) bluntly. Everything from Jean's weaknesses to Raven's blatantly overhyped physical force.

Don't get me wrong, I adore the episode, but in terms of research and accuracy? It might actually be the worst one of the entire series, or at least the worst one in recent years.

[u/Nin_Saber → u/Someidiot31]

You just can't beat the almighty goth girl scaling I guess.

[u/69-is-a-great-number → u/Nin_Saber]

Oh yeah, this is absolutely true

[u/delusional-law-twink → u/Someidiot31]

Pretty sure that is taken directly from Defenders: Beyond where the WHR was basically their last stop up the dimensional layers before reaching the One Above All. But even so, stuff like The Far Shore and Eternity shouldn't be listed here.

[u/MxSharknado93 → u/Someidiot31]

Because that episode is a six-pack of ass

[u/Flame245 → u/Nin_Saber]

They didn't lowball DC's cosmology, they admitted that higher interpretations still has DC's cosmology being larger. Except Kyle has his limits while Simon is beyond them.

[u/Nin_Saber → u/Flame245]

There are quite a few things that don't line up with their scaling of DC in Simon VS Kyle and their previous DC episodes.

They had the DC multiverse as infinite dimensional with transcendent realms beyond that like the Speed Force, Godsphere, etc. as higher but had it at 12.3D in Kylemon. Sure, they mention higher interpretations but they don't elaborate on where they'd place it.

If they did still buy it the same as before than it doesn't line up at all really. They scale the Life Equation as Outer but when referring to where it comes from and what Kyle does with it, they only reference it as Godsphere tier level. So they either scale the Life Equation while Kyle using it as just Outer or they scale it higher, but Kyles use of it is lower and just at the Godsphere. However, they scale White Lantern as equal or superior to the Anti-Monitor who is stronger than Godsphere characters and comparable to the World Forger who they previously scaled above transcendent realms in GVS3. Not to mention, they scaled Raven to Phoenix who was multiple layers into Outer, via Trigon matching Mr. Mxy who is below the Monitor brothers. With previous cosmology scaling, the White Lantern would be Outer if not a few layers into Outer by the same logic and the Life Equation would be even higher.

[u/Flame245 → u/Nin_Saber]

Actually, those are just their base form levels of power, with Simon coming around 11D and Kyle coming at 12.3D in their base forms. Though they do get much more powerful than that.

Also, before you say that DC's Multiverse having infinite dimensions, it doesn't. In context, that only refers to the infinite number of universes that are present, not the number of dimensional layers.

Kyle as a White Lantern may transcend realms like the Bleed, the Godsphere, and the Monitor-Sphere, but that doesn't make him Outerversal; that only makes him Hyperversal at best as those dimensions are still bound by ordinary physics like vibrations and String Theory. Even beings like true form Darkseid are bound by ordinary physics as Superman destroyed him with a sub-quantum shout after getting the right frequency of Darkseid's true form. In fact, the Ultima Thule, a ship that rides on vibrational wavelengths within The Bleed only stopped when it reached Limbo, having only then “run out of multiverse”. Even the Monitor Sphere isn't devoid of this as it also runs on vibrations and wavelengths. This is proven true even in recent comics.

The only way Kyle gets to Outerversal Level is after he reached the Source Wall. Meanwhile, Simon is also Outerversal Level from defeating the Anti-Spiral, who transceneds and exists beyond the infinite dimensional layers of the multiverse.

Except here's the kicker, Simon can continue breaking his limits while Kyle hit his limit with the Life Equation as thanks to Otoko scaling, Simon can keep growing stronger till he affects meta-narratives; something Kyle hasn't done himself.

[u/Nin_Saber → u/Flame245]

For Base Kyle, that can kind of make sense but it doesn't for Simon. Simon is argued 11D because of absorbing the Multiversal Labyrinth. Since absorbing it meant absorbing Otoko Simon, he wouldn't be 11D in base, he'd be Outer in base by their logic.

There were some statements that did refer to universes but there were a few that people still debated as they could be referring to infinite dimensions as well along with an author statement. Either way though, the G1 blog used VSBWiki to argue against Outer Godsphere but ignored that VSBWiki buys the Godsphere being Outer despite having a bias against DC. Also, when referring to R>F for DC Death Battle mentioned "platonic, archetypal" realm but that description is for the Godsphere not just the Source.

There are no infinite dimensions in Gurren Lagann. It's just 11D and then argued as Outer because of Otoko. There's no in-between.

Regardless, even if that's where they were scaled, it only supports my other point. Previously, they did scale the DC multiverse as infinite dimensional with transcendent realms like Speed Force, Godsphere, etc. being above them. So this is a lower scaling and thus a nerf of DC compared to what it was prior and invalidates many of their wins against Marvel.

[u/Flame245 → u/Nin_Saber]

Except the Godsphere is not Outerversal Level. It's only Hyperversal Level as it's still bound by ordinary physics like vibrations and String Theory and the actual context of the comics confirms that the "infinite dimensions" is just referring to the number of universes. The author statement is most likely referring to the DC multiverse having an infinite number of universes than dimensional layers and the fact that the context disapproves the "infinite dimensional layers" argument by showing that the God-Sphere is bound by physics pretty much confirms this.

Simon leaped from 3D to 11D after overcoming and absorbing the Multiverse Labyrinth but instantly became Outversal Level in his base form after defeating the Anti-Spiral with his bare hands, and the Anti-Spiral is a being that transcends and exists beyond time, space, and dimensions; that's above even the likes of the God-Sphere and the Monitor-Sphere, which are still bound by space-time and physics.

Kyle can only reach Outerversal Level when he reaches the Source, which again is a level of power that Simon has already achieved by beating the Anti-Spiral in his base form and when referring to the Otoko scaling, they never mentioned that "platonic, archetypal" realm; they're referring how that alternate Simon brought his fictional work to life, that fictional Simon not only escaping his media, recognised he's in a "sound dimension" a dimension with no visuals except voices, tore apart and repaired the very CD he was in, and nearly tore a hole open into the real world. That's beyond Outerversal and actually affecting meta narratives.

The novels and data books have arguments for Gurren Lagaan having infinite dimensional layers too, but it doesn't matter as Simon has already transcended concepts like time, space, and dimensions.

Meanwhile, Kyle struggles with the Life Equation and is only High Outerversal at best.

Also, VSBWiki is biased for DC, not against it.

[u/Nin_Saber → u/Flame245]

That's ignoring the other arguments made for it but if you buy it there than more power to you. The Source being the the only Outer thing in DC is still a humongous nerf from where they scaled DC prior so the fact remains that it was nerfed in Simon VS Kyle regardless.

The Anti-Spiral himself has no argument for beyond 11D aside from scaling to Simon's Outer after the Labyrinth. the lines of transcending time and being greater than dimensions aren't Outer or anything. And just like some users that try to say "greater than dimensions" means Outer, that isn't the case.

Meta narrative does not scale beyond fiction or inherently above Outer. I hope you realize that. The CD scaling IS the argument for Outer. There is no argument for Simon being beyond Outer.

VSBWiki being biased for DC is silly. They have long had the reputation of downplaying and intense scrutinizing of DC. Even going through great efforts to go against the heralds being Uni. They are not at all bias for it.

[u/Flame245 → u/Nin_Saber]

That's ignoring the other arguments made for it but if you buy it there than more power to you. The Source being the the only Outer thing in DC is still a humongous nerf from where they scaled DC prior so the fact remains that it was nerfed in Simon VS Kyle regardless.

Those arguments mean nothing when the very context contradicts them and the author's statement heavily implies it's just referring to an infinite number of universes, rather than dimensional layers.

The Anti-Spiral himself has no argument for beyond 11D aside from scaling to Simon's Outer after the Labyrinth. the lines of transcending time and being greater than dimensions aren't Outer or anything. And just like some users that try to say "greater than dimensions" means Outer, that isn't the case.

The Anti-Spiral has been said to exist beyond the concepts of space, time, and dimensions. That alone puts it and base Simon around Outerversal Level since they're beyond such concepts while dimensions like the Bleed, Godsphere, and Monitor-Sphere are still bound by physics and space-time.

Meta narrative does not scale beyond fiction or inherently above Outer. I hope you realize that. The CD scaling IS the argument for Outer. There is no argument for Simon being beyond Outer.

Avant Simon literally tore apart the very CD, the very form of media, he was in with his power. If that's not arguments for R>F, then I don't know what it is. Breaking the form of fiction you're in is much superior to simply transcending normal time and space.

This transcends typical Outeversal Levels of power and is a level of power that not even Kyle can perform at his best. In fact, he struggles to do so as he lacks control of the Life Equation.

VSBWiki being biased for DC is silly. They have long had the reputation of downplaying and intense scrutinizing of DC. Even going through great efforts to go against the heralds being Uni. They are not at all bias for it.

VSBWiki is infamous for their heavy highball scaling of DC and their reputation isn't downplaying, it's upscaling to ludicrous levels when the context of the very comics they're looking into says otherwise. They're flat-out biased for DC. All the Heralds are actually High Outerversal to them.

[u/Nin_Saber → u/Flame245]

The Anti-Spiral has been said to exist beyond the concepts of space, time, and dimensions. That alone puts it and base Simon around Outerversal Level since they're beyond such concepts while dimensions like the Bleed, Godsphere, and Monitor-Sphere are still bound by physics and space-time.

No where is it stated the Anti-Spiral transcends the concept of dimensionality. "Greater than time and dimensions" does not mean that and requires a similarly very generous interpretation to do so.

Avant Simon literally tore apart the very CD, the very form of media, he was in with his power. If that's not arguments for R>F, then I don't know what it is. Breaking the form of fiction you're in is much superior to simply transcending normal time and space.

This transcends typical Outeversal Levels of power and is a level of power that not even Kyle can perform at his best. In fact, he struggles to do so as he lacks control of the Life Equation.

Not what that means at all. You do realize R>F means Outer right? Nothing about affecting the fiction you're in means being beyond Outer or fiction in general. Nothing about it transcends typical Outerversal. R>F is just one argument for Outer. Outer via meta fictional arguments and Outer via dimensionality arguments are still both Outer.

I remember you thinking the Looney Tunes were comparable or stronger than DC and Marvel because of their real life 4th wall gags but that doesn't mean beyond fiction or Outer either. Nothing at all about meta fiction scales it as some unreachable tier outside of other meta fiction arguments.

VSBWiki is infamous for their heavy highball scaling of DC and their reputation isn't downplaying, it's upscaling to ludicrous levels when the context of the very comics they're looking into says otherwise. They're flat-out biased for DC. All the Heralds are actually High Outerversal to them.

This I don't understand. They have capped DC at Complex Multi for a long time. They've scaled the heralds at Solar System for much of their time. Had entire threads devoted to debunking Uni or higher DC. Even now they scale majority of heralds at Low Multi or lower. They are infamous for bias against DC for a long time. That's just being revisionist. Only recently have they've started being a bit more open to it.

[u/MxSharknado93 → u/Nin_Saber]

Al Ewing, baby.

[u/Cultural-Horror3977 → u/Nin_Saber]

They might do a deeper dive into the cosmology when it’s more of a cosmology battle compared to the easier route they took in the Kylemon episode

[u/Worth-Floor9004 → u/itownshend17]

I still think it’s super odd Dc was capped at 12 D when it has better arguments for higher, hell even the black boxes said give to higher interpretations dc was bigger than gurren Lagan , it’s also confusing cause before they said dc and marvel cosmology was equal and ghosts rider vs spawn and Godzilla vs hulk had basically a thousand dimensions

[u/itownshend17 → u/Worth-Floor9004]

In my opinion, Death Battle genuinely downplayed DC's cosmology to make Kyle vs Simon look close. Similar to how Doomslayer wasnt given lore scaling so Chief vs Slayer seemed close (even though Kratos and the Dragonborn did receieve lore scaling in their episodes showing Death Battle isnt against using it), DB chose to not use any infinite dimensional argument for DC cause then it would be high hyper Kyle vs high complex Simon and it'd be a stomp for Kyle. But if they capped DC at 12D and GL at 11D then it seems close, problem is this scale for DC doesnt make sense since DB has stated they buy infinite dimensional Marvel cosmology in multiple episodes before, and even bought layers into infinite dimensional Marvel cosmology in Hulkzilla, which then makes you wonder how Marvel vs DC are nearly tied in wins and losses in Death Battle if the DB team consider their cosmologies to be THIS far apart in terms of where they scale.

[u/Worth-Floor9004 → u/itownshend17]

It’s honestly similar to the problems that I have with ghost rider vs spawn results, why did they not bring up ghost rider resistance to reality warping and transmutation and said he had none, these are like the main wincons other than strength that ghost rider had, did they think spawns was simply better and more potent

[u/NoUsernameUntilNow → u/itownshend17]

since DB has stated they buy infinite dimensional Marvel cosmology in multiple episodes before

Only really Galactus vs Unicron from what I could tell and specifically from a small blackbox at the top that goes away too fast.

[u/itownshend17 → u/NoUsernameUntilNow]

They also said Ghost Rider can affect infinite bulk spaces, those being infinite higher dimensions, while also stating Zarathos can threaten infinite higher dimensions and transcendent realms.

[u/NoUsernameUntilNow → u/itownshend17]

They said Ghost Rider can affect infinite bulk spaces, those being infinite higher dimensions, with Zarathos threatening infinite higher dimensions and transcendent realms.

Fair, though i don't think the infinite part wasn't supposed to correlate to the higher dimensions or transcendent realms.

Edit 1:Otherwise Hulk would have been infinite layer's into Outer. Also with the way wording there would be an infinite amount of already infinite timelines and an infinite amount of bulk spaces connecting them? Might be a typo.

[u/Flame245 → u/itownshend17]

They literally said that DC's cosmology is larger except Kyle has limits and no way around Simon's evolutionary potential and regeneration and that he has no limits.

They also didn't cap Simon and Kyle as 11D and 12.3D, respectively. That's for their base forms. They're higher forms like Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann and White Lantern are far greater as they're both on Outerversal Levels of power. Except Kyle hit his limit with the Life Equation, whereas Simon kept growing stronger thanks to the Otoko scaling and it's been confirmed that those with strong willpower can resist the Life Equation's effects.

[u/Simple-Flight-4622 → u/itownshend17]

Facts😂😂😂

[u/CrimsonGoji → u/itownshend17]

Not to mention that Banner’s knowledge on Gamma (which is similar in nature to archetype) meant he could find some sort of way to defeat IT (Ultima’s true form aka the singular point) 

I personally kinda disagree that Ultima can’t reach the green door but that’s completely separate and as I said earlier Banner can still just find some solution.

[u/Cinnamon-the-skank → u/itownshend17]

Still think it was weird they didn’t give Kyle the higher tier DC scaling, especially considering what they’ve given other top tiers

[u/No-Entertainment5599 → u/itownshend17]

They said 12.3 is a low end in a black box

[u/itownshend17 → u/No-Entertainment5599]

They said 12.3 is a low end in a black box

No they didnt, they said in a black box that both the DC and GL cosmologies can be scaled higher with higher interpretations, but those are useless in terms of the verdict unless actually used in the episode for Kyles/DC's scale, and in the episode itself, 11D and 12.3D is where Death Battle scaled Simon/GL's cosmology and Kyle/DC's cosmology at, there being potential higher arguments for DC is not useful for Kyle winning if the team doesnt buy those arguments nor uses them.

[u/NoUsernameUntilNow → u/itownshend17]

11D and 12.3D is where Death Battle scaled Simon/GL's cosmology and Kyle/DC's cosmology at, there being potential higher arguments for DC is not useful for Kyle winning if the team doesnt buy those arguments nor uses them.

The Reality Fiction Difference they used for both basically made them Outer regardless in DB. The scan they used for that was specifically talking about the godsphere though.

[u/itownshend17 → u/NoUsernameUntilNow]

https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/s/14KXh3jeAK

[u/NoUsernameUntilNow → u/itownshend17]

https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/s/14KXh3jeAK

Literally put Godzilla to Outer cause of R>F in this episode my guy.

Also again mentioned the life equation to reality over fiction as a counter to Simons ability to transcend dimensional gaps. Where they had to bring Simon's own Reality Fiction differences to overcome it.

Edit: Liam does go on and talk about this later on in casts. Even state's that this whole nonsense of reality fiction difference's is kinda is kinda C.S. Lewis fault in the 1 trillion lions vs Pokemon episode.

Like It's pretty obvious at least for me

Edit 2: Ok maybe it's not obvious as I though it was given the whole debate we had below this but I think they explained it enough to imply that level of power. Especially with How Liam keep's mentioning these difference's as Outer in the main DB cast's whenever his arguing for a character that has reality fiction differences or simple Joke's involving character's transcending the real world.

[u/itownshend17 → u/NoUsernameUntilNow]

Literally put Godzilla to Outer cause of R>F in this episode my guy.

Link me at what point in the episode they put Godzilla at outer, but even if they did, so? Thats a completely different character from a completely different cosmology and a completely different episode that has nothing to do with Kyle and Simon. If they did buy R>F = outer in Hulkzilla that doesnt change that they didnt buy it back during Kylemon, just look at Thor or Shadow having different scaling in every episode they have been in.

Liam straight states that the whole nosense of this reality fiction outer is cause of C.S. Lewis in the 1 trillion lions vs Pokemon episode.

Okay, then he should have actually mentioned this in the official episode instead of only mentioning both being 11D and 12.3D in the analysis of Kylemon.

Also again mentioned the life equation to reality over fiction as a counter to Simons ability to transcend dimensional gaps. Where they had to bring Simon's own Reality Fiction differences to overcome it.

Which once again isnt the same as them giving either character outer scaling cause once again at no point in the episode do they mention R>F makes the characters outer.

[u/NoJuggernaut9252 → u/itownshend17]

They said that Simon transcending the fictional version of himself is equal to the life equation which, and I quote "The Life Equation -- like its counterpart, the Anti-Life Equation -- is a conceptual artifact from a higher reality, originating in a Platonic realm that is, in a sense, more "real" than we are." That is as outer as it gets.

[u/NoUsernameUntilNow → u/itownshend17]

Link me at what point in the episode they put Godzilla at outer, but even if they did, so? Thats a completely different character from a completely different cosmology and a completely different episode that has nothing to do with Kyle and Simon.

State's that the main infinite marvel multiverse contain's infinite higher dimensions.

They then proceed to mention that Godzilla's main cosmos contain's just as much as the main marvel Multiverse Only without the transcendent realms beyond it. Even putting Godzilla outside that Cosmos.

Keep in mind the only scan they used to Justify Godzilla getting on this level is A scan of IT transcending the world through Reality Fiction Difference's. I'm sure you can find argument's involving more than infinite realms for Ultima but that kinda has to go beyond what DB said in the episode. Not to mention even Outside the episode Idk where they scale Ultima at given they've never covered the character before.

In term's actual statement's of them being Outer no DB character has ever been stated to be on that level. They usually just stack it up after infinite higher dimensions.

We know they state stuff beyond infinite higher realms is Outer cause people Ultraguy who made their research involving DC's cosmology for Goku vs Superman 3. Where they layered realms beyond the infinite dimensional bleed.

We still know this is the case cause Ultraguy has put yu narukami at that level through SMT scaling. Specifically using an Reality Fiction Difference as evidence Ahem Kaballah Tree em I right Marvel and SMT fans. and is also his 2nd most recent blog through the kickstarter era.

Okay, then he should have actually mentioned this in the official episode instead of only mentioning both being 11D and 12.3D in the analysis of Kylemon.

I think that was the whole point of the Life Equation Reality Fiction Difference.

Fun Fact: Did you know the scan they used for that is actually involve's platonism between the main DC multiverse with Godsphere, NOT the source wall though for some reason. Generally don't know how high they scaled Kyle in the episode beyond the fact that his Outer.

Which once again isnt the same as them giving either character outer scaling cause once again at no point in the episode do they mention R>F makes the characters outer.

This seem's like more of a complaint of them not stating directly it's Outer. We all DB never directly state's any vs term's in their episode in order to keep them more coherent. And this is despite people like Ultraguy name dropping them at that level in his blogs. Were legit never gonna get them to actually state that in the show cause casuals.

We at least know they put stuff above infinite higher dimensions at least but that's pretty much it even including black boxes. Given the only infinite higher dimension mentions is the Hulkzilla episode and a Galactus vs Unicron. I'm not joking, in every other black box they never state it has infinite, even specifying an arbitrary number through snowflake fractral dimensions or simply stating there's a numerous amount or multiple of them at least for DC lol.

Now that I think about it, they didn't even mention Kyle or Simon being Hyper to Complex Multi despite using Dimensional Scaling and directly stating these term's in their DB cast's.

[u/itownshend17 → u/NoUsernameUntilNow]

State's that the main infinite marvel multiverse contain's infinite higher dimensions.

They then proceed to mention that Godzilla's main cosmos contain's just as much as the main marvel Multiverse Only without the transcendent realms beyond it. Even putting Godzilla outside that Cosmos.

Thats high hyper, not outer. Godzilla Ultima transcending his cosmology would be outer in VSBW, but not by death battles standards.

We still know this is the case cause Ultraguy has put yu narukami at that level through SMT scaling. Specifically using an Reality Fiction Difference as evidence

But if he doesnt use that logic in the episodes themselves, thing which wasnt mentioned at all in Kylemon, then it wouldnt make neither Simon nor Kyle outer.

In term's actual statement's of them being Outer no DB character has ever been stated to be on that level. They usually just stack it up after infinite higher dimensions.

Thats what im saying.

[u/NoUsernameUntilNow → u/itownshend17]

Thats high hyper, not outer. Godzilla Ultima transcending his cosmology would be outer in VSBW, but not by death battles standards.

My whole point is Ultima got there cause of an Reality Fiction Difference scan which is generally not something you'll find anywhere else.

But if he doesnt use that logic in the episodes themselves, thing which wasnt mentioned at all in Kylemon, then it wouldnt make neither Simon nor Kyle outer.

I get you logic but like also at the same allot of herald's even including Superman would be universal to multiversal at most in his episode? Like Galactus vs Unicron is the only episode where they mention to be high hyper with stack's of realms above it.

Thats what im saying.

Oh ok then, much more on the term Outer itself in DB I'm guessing? I think the intent should be factored still given this is "Archie Sonic actually wasn't punched across multiverse, he was only relieving memories which you'll only understand in a QNA you'll probably never watch" DB standards that was a joke pls don't kill me DB staff.

I'm much more referring to how they scale thing's above infinite higher dimensions or on that level as Outer at least here. In DB they might never really state that but that's basically my intent with how they treat R>F.

It's just very wierd that they scale Reality Fiction Difference's to mean the entity exists on a level above the Main Marvel Multiverse only without the transcendent realms outside through this scaling with Ultima seeing his own infinite dimensional multiverse as fictional.

[u/NoUsernameUntilNow → u/itownshend17]

https://www.reddit.com/r/DeathBattleMatchups/s/14KXh3jeAK

Also Mr Fantastic vs Reed cast they bring up a counter to the ultimate Nullifier is it affecting things on a narrative level.

The same Ultimate Nullifier that can one shot eternity.

[u/itownshend17 → u/NoUsernameUntilNow]

Already told you that R>F was at no point stated to be considered outer by the team in the Kylemon episode, so.

[u/NoUsernameUntilNow → u/itownshend17]

Already told you that R>F was at no point stated to be considered outer by the team in the Kylemon episode, so.

Reality Fiction differences with Simon = Life Equation > Simon transcending dimensional gaps > Kyle 12.3 D > 11d Simon.

Literally in the episode and is explained at the last category.

[u/itownshend17 → u/NoUsernameUntilNow]

Reality Fiction differences with Simon = Life Equation > Simon transcending dimensional gaps > Kyle 12.3 D > 11d Simon.

Which once again the team didnt mention was outer in Kylemon.

Literally in the episode and is explained at the last category.

Link where its said so then.

[u/NoUsernameUntilNow → u/itownshend17]

I don't think there ever gonna state anything's outer or hyper in any of there main DB's directly. Even in this one you wouldn't know they scaled Hulk to Outer cause they talked about the scope and size of the main multiverse. so briefly Idk if anyone even heard them mention infinite higher spatial dimensions directly for like the first time ever.

Imagine people think the TOAA is 12D at best Lmao cause of at most being 9 layer's above the main marvel multiverse.

Mentioned that Simon can will himself to higher dimensions through sheer force of will instantly.

This was then countered by the life equation existing on a higher plane of reality being far higher than Simon's dimensional transcendence.

If the life equation was literally just another dimensional gap above 12.3D they gave to DC then they wouln't have emphasized it so much. 13D would have been nothing to DB Simon lol.

You either go with 13d Life equation being above Simon's transcendence instantly despite the episode stating he could even the odd's through transcending dimensions 7 layers at an instant or Outer Life Equation being far above anything Simon can transcend normally without similar Reality Fiction Argument's. Pick your Poison.

[u/Simple-Flight-4622 → u/itownshend17]

I think they scaled both kyle and Simon as outer

[u/itownshend17 → u/Simple-Flight-4622]

They didnt, at no point do they say they did in the episode. The link I just shared has the Death Battle team putting Simon at 11D and Kyle at 12.3D.

[u/Simple-Flight-4622 → u/itownshend17]

I think with ouko scaling and the life equation 

[u/itownshend17 → u/Simple-Flight-4622]

Brother, once again, they didnt, if they did then feel free to link me the moment in the episode where they said Kyle and Simon scaled to outer.

[u/MishaS2005 → u/itownshend17]

Ok, apparently I was summoned to explain how episode put both on Outer.

For Simon, they used R>F, which suggests that if character transcended from fiction into real world - he’s Outer. In Simon’s case, one of his versions went from Manga into more real world.

(Note: I don’t buy R>F making characters Outer, and think if character transcended into more real world, he just went from one layer of dimension to higher dimension, but episode used it to put Simon on Outer)

For Kyle, The Life Equation transcended DC Multiverse, which put it on Outer (actually higher, but episode ignored it).

[u/itownshend17 → u/MishaS2005]

For Simon, they used R>F, which suggests that if character transcended from fiction into real world - he’s Outer

The team did mention Simon having R>F due to Otoko, but they didnt mention this making him outer at all.

For Kyle, The Life Equation transcended DC Multiverse, which put it on Outer

Again, they didnt scale the LE nor transcending the DC multiverse to outer in the episode.

[u/MishaS2005 → u/itownshend17]

Yes, post-analysis explained this things really bad. But it’s implied that both transcended their Multiverse, so they both Outer. Or at least it’s how I understand it.

[u/Simple-Flight-4622 → u/itownshend17]

I'm not sure but u/mishaS2005 can explain it 

[u/AncientMagusBridefan → u/itownshend17]

Genuinely, I think they go with the whole 12D thing just because they don’t want to explain outerversal to the casual audience lol

[u/TankOfflaneMain → u/itownshend17]

I still don’t get how Kyle is 12-D only as a Green Lantern, but he should be multitudes mightier as a White Lantern, perhaps 25D maybe more, but nope they somehow chose to stick him down to just 12D

[u/Simple-Flight-4622 → u/TankOfflaneMain]

Yeah I agree they should of give a number for white lantern kyle 

[u/Wexon_69]

Well Kyle's not a scientist like Bruce.

[u/011100010110010101 → u/Wexon_69]

Are you saying Kyle lost because he majored in Art?

[u/Wexon_69 → u/011100010110010101]

Yes I am saying exactly that.

[u/Oak_AshAndThorn → u/011100010110010101]

Just like real life

[u/AncientMagusBridefan]

Leave Kyle alone. He studied art. That man probably forget what an algebra is the moment he doesn’t have to take math exam anymore

[u/No-Entertainment5599 → u/AncientMagusBridefan]

He's just like me fr....

[u/Original-War8655 → u/AncientMagusBridefan]

I study math and still forget what algebra is the moment I don't have to take any exams on it

[u/Boingo_Bongo]

Math is just another wall and Simon doesn’t like walls

[u/Motaromc]

Godzilla has a known weakness for science

[u/Aggravating_Win5258 → u/Motaromc]

Wasn‘t science technically what brought him to life though?

[u/SilentKingOmega1994 → u/Aggravating_Win5258]

What science giveth, science taketh away.

[u/TCCNick]

Yeah I hate to be one of those annoying deboonkers… but it really did feel like they kinda had it in for Kyle and really downplayed the DC cosmology to make it an even fight.

Like between the G1 Blog spending the entire Kyle section just hammering on the VSB downplay while pretty much just handing Simon his outerversal scaling without scrutiny, to Death Battle arbitrarily putting DC at 12D low end with some leeway to base Outerversal despite Liam himself stating Outerversal at least DC multiple times I think it’s a bit odd how much of an outlier it kinda feels. Like “we gotta give a DC herald a token loss to not look biased”

Makes it even funnier now that Marvel is like 20 layers into Outer so if their DC opinions hold it makes every cosmic win DCs ever a total wash lol

[u/Nin_Saber → u/TCCNick]

G1 Blog spending the entire Kyle section just hammering on the VSB downplay while pretty much just handing Simon his outerversal scaling without scrutiny

Which is rather ironic considering VSBWiki scales DC way higher than both G1 and Death Battle as well as not really buying Outer GL.

[u/SorryLetterhead160]

Now it’s time for everybody’s favorite subject: Math!

[u/PhaseSixer]

"Using logic against Simon"

Ah, see where he went wrong.

[u/Blazer-Man]

Kyle was a fool, for Godzilla was made of math, Simon wasn't

[u/Cultural-Horror3977]

Tbf one is immune to all that mumbo jumbo and the others only weakness is that mumbo jumbo

[u/majinthurman]

Man Kyle got hoed in his episode

[u/Bubbly_Ebb4402]

...quick question: Hasn't it been mentioned in various guides, movies, and spin-offs from the Showa and Heisei eras that Godzilla's multiverse has higher dimensions of infinite size?

[u/BigBlueOtter123 → u/Bubbly_Ebb4402]

Maybe, but I doubt it has as many as Marvel. And the below place is the highest (or should I say lowest) one (tied with the house of ideas)

[u/Original-Bug-259]

Well, that's the thing, Bruce is a scientist, being good with math is kind of his thing. Kyle is a comic artist. The fact that those who work in the comic industry are horrifically bad at math, physics and the like is what allows Powerscaling and Death Battle to exist as an enterprise in the first place.

[u/WorldlySecretary5769]

Bruce Banner: You ever hear the tragedy of Kyle Rayner the Lantern?

[u/MasterPurpose7742]

It's cause Kyle tried to use math to prove life is worth living when Simon doesn't need it to prove it while Bruce is legit Godzilla one weakness, a scientist

[u/Something_Comforting]

Just rewatched it. Kyle can't handle the life equation, aka he don't know the maths he was using.