This is honestly why I wouldn't mind another cosmic tier DC VS Marvel fight because I'm genuinely curious if they still buy their cosmologies being comparable. Not only did they seemingly scale DC lower in Simon VS Kyle but they even buffed Marvel with the layers explained in the results. Like, they added so many layers that you can barely even see "Astral Plane" in there lol.
They didn't lowball DC's cosmology, they admitted that higher interpretations still has DC's cosmology being larger. Except Kyle has his limits while Simon is beyond them.
There are quite a few things that don't line up with their scaling of DC in Simon VS Kyle and their previous DC episodes.
They had the DC multiverse as infinite dimensional with transcendent realms beyond that like the Speed Force, Godsphere, etc. as higher but had it at 12.3D in Kylemon. Sure, they mention higher interpretations but they don't elaborate on where they'd place it.
If they did still buy it the same as before than it doesn't line up at all really. They scale the Life Equation as Outer but when referring to where it comes from and what Kyle does with it, they only reference it as Godsphere tier level. So they either scale the Life Equation while Kyle using it as just Outer or they scale it higher, but Kyles use of it is lower and just at the Godsphere. However, they scale White Lantern as equal or superior to the Anti-Monitor who is stronger than Godsphere characters and comparable to the World Forger who they previously scaled above transcendent realms in GVS3. Not to mention, they scaled Raven to Phoenix who was multiple layers into Outer, via Trigon matching Mr. Mxy who is below the Monitor brothers. With previous cosmology scaling, the White Lantern would be Outer if not a few layers into Outer by the same logic and the Life Equation would be even higher.
Actually, those are just their base form levels of power, with Simon coming around 11D and Kyle coming at 12.3D in their base forms. Though they do get much more powerful than that.
Also, before you say that DC's Multiverse having infinite dimensions, it doesn't. In context, that only refers to the infinite number of universes that are present, not the number of dimensional layers.
Kyle as a White Lantern may transcend realms like the Bleed, the Godsphere, and the Monitor-Sphere, but that doesn't make him Outerversal; that only makes him Hyperversal at best as those dimensions are still bound by ordinary physics like vibrations and String Theory. Even beings like true form Darkseid are bound by ordinary physics as Superman destroyed him with a sub-quantum shout after getting the right frequency of Darkseid's true form. In fact, the Ultima Thule, a ship that rides on vibrational wavelengths within The Bleed only stopped when it reached Limbo, having only then “run out of multiverse”. Even the Monitor Sphere isn't devoid of this as it also runs on vibrations and wavelengths. This is proven true even in recent comics.
The only way Kyle gets to Outerversal Level is after he reached the Source Wall. Meanwhile, Simon is also Outerversal Level from defeating the Anti-Spiral, who transceneds and exists beyond the infinite dimensional layers of the multiverse.
Except here's the kicker, Simon can continue breaking his limits while Kyle hit his limit with the Life Equation as thanks to Otoko scaling, Simon can keep growing stronger till he affects meta-narratives; something Kyle hasn't done himself.
For Base Kyle, that can kind of make sense but it doesn't for Simon. Simon is argued 11D because of absorbing the Multiversal Labyrinth. Since absorbing it meant absorbing Otoko Simon, he wouldn't be 11D in base, he'd be Outer in base by their logic.
There were some statements that did refer to universes but there were a few that people still debated as they could be referring to infinite dimensions as well along with an author statement. Either way though, the G1 blog used VSBWiki to argue against Outer Godsphere but ignored that VSBWiki buys the Godsphere being Outer despite having a bias against DC. Also, when referring to R>F for DC Death Battle mentioned "platonic, archetypal" realm but that description is for the Godsphere not just the Source.
There are no infinite dimensions in Gurren Lagann. It's just 11D and then argued as Outer because of Otoko. There's no in-between.
Regardless, even if that's where they were scaled, it only supports my other point. Previously, they did scale the DC multiverse as infinite dimensional with transcendent realms like Speed Force, Godsphere, etc. being above them. So this is a lower scaling and thus a nerf of DC compared to what it was prior and invalidates many of their wins against Marvel.
Except the Godsphere is not Outerversal Level. It's only Hyperversal Level as it's still bound by ordinary physics like vibrations and String Theory and the actual context of the comics confirms that the "infinite dimensions" is just referring to the number of universes. The author statement is most likely referring to the DC multiverse having an infinite number of universes than dimensional layers and the fact that the context disapproves the "infinite dimensional layers" argument by showing that the God-Sphere is bound by physics pretty much confirms this.
Simon leaped from 3D to 11D after overcoming and absorbing the Multiverse Labyrinth but instantly became Outversal Level in his base form after defeating the Anti-Spiral with his bare hands, and the Anti-Spiral is a being that transcends and exists beyond time, space, and dimensions; that's above even the likes of the God-Sphere and the Monitor-Sphere, which are still bound by space-time and physics.
Kyle can only reach Outerversal Level when he reaches the Source, which again is a level of power that Simon has already achieved by beating the Anti-Spiral in his base form and when referring to the Otoko scaling, they never mentioned that "platonic, archetypal" realm; they're referring how that alternate Simon brought his fictional work to life, that fictional Simon not only escaping his media, recognised he's in a "sound dimension" a dimension with no visuals except voices, tore apart and repaired the very CD he was in, and nearly tore a hole open into the real world. That's beyond Outerversal and actually affecting meta narratives.
The novels and data books have arguments for Gurren Lagaan having infinite dimensional layers too, but it doesn't matter as Simon has already transcended concepts like time, space, and dimensions.
Meanwhile, Kyle struggles with the Life Equation and is only High Outerversal at best.
That's ignoring the other arguments made for it but if you buy it there than more power to you. The Source being the the only Outer thing in DC is still a humongous nerf from where they scaled DC prior so the fact remains that it was nerfed in Simon VS Kyle regardless.
The Anti-Spiral himself has no argument for beyond 11D aside from scaling to Simon's Outer after the Labyrinth. the lines of transcending time and being greater than dimensions aren't Outer or anything. And just like some users that try to say "greater than dimensions" means Outer, that isn't the case.
Meta narrative does not scale beyond fiction or inherently above Outer. I hope you realize that. The CD scaling IS the argument for Outer. There is no argument for Simon being beyond Outer.
VSBWiki being biased for DC is silly. They have long had the reputation of downplaying and intense scrutinizing of DC. Even going through great efforts to go against the heralds being Uni. They are not at all bias for it.
That's ignoring the other arguments made for it but if you buy it there than more power to you. The Source being the the only Outer thing in DC is still a humongous nerf from where they scaled DC prior so the fact remains that it was nerfed in Simon VS Kyle regardless.
Those arguments mean nothing when the very context contradicts them and the author's statement heavily implies it's just referring to an infinite number of universes, rather than dimensional layers.
The Anti-Spiral himself has no argument for beyond 11D aside from scaling to Simon's Outer after the Labyrinth. the lines of transcending time and being greater than dimensions aren't Outer or anything. And just like some users that try to say "greater than dimensions" means Outer, that isn't the case.
The Anti-Spiral has been said to exist beyond the concepts of space, time, and dimensions. That alone puts it and base Simon around Outerversal Level since they're beyond such concepts while dimensions like the Bleed, Godsphere, and Monitor-Sphere are still bound by physics and space-time.
Meta narrative does not scale beyond fiction or inherently above Outer. I hope you realize that. The CD scaling IS the argument for Outer. There is no argument for Simon being beyond Outer.
Avant Simon literally tore apart the very CD, the very form of media, he was in with his power. If that's not arguments for R>F, then I don't know what it is. Breaking the form of fiction you're in is much superior to simply transcending normal time and space.
This transcends typical Outeversal Levels of power and is a level of power that not even Kyle can perform at his best. In fact, he struggles to do so as he lacks control of the Life Equation.
VSBWiki being biased for DC is silly. They have long had the reputation of downplaying and intense scrutinizing of DC. Even going through great efforts to go against the heralds being Uni. They are not at all bias for it.
VSBWiki is infamous for their heavy highball scaling of DC and their reputation isn't downplaying, it's upscaling to ludicrous levels when the context of the very comics they're looking into says otherwise. They're flat-out biased for DC. All the Heralds are actually High Outerversal to them.
The Anti-Spiral has been said to exist beyond the concepts of space, time, and dimensions. That alone puts it and base Simon around Outerversal Level since they're beyond such concepts while dimensions like the Bleed, Godsphere, and Monitor-Sphere are still bound by physics and space-time.
No where is it stated the Anti-Spiral transcends the concept of dimensionality. "Greater than time and dimensions" does not mean that and requires a similarly very generous interpretation to do so.
Avant Simon literally tore apart the very CD, the very form of media, he was in with his power. If that's not arguments for R>F, then I don't know what it is. Breaking the form of fiction you're in is much superior to simply transcending normal time and space.
This transcends typical Outeversal Levels of power and is a level of power that not even Kyle can perform at his best. In fact, he struggles to do so as he lacks control of the Life Equation.
Not what that means at all. You do realize R>F means Outer right? Nothing about affecting the fiction you're in means being beyond Outer or fiction in general. Nothing about it transcends typical Outerversal. R>F is just one argument for Outer. Outer via meta fictional arguments and Outer via dimensionality arguments are still both Outer.
I remember you thinking the Looney Tunes were comparable or stronger than DC and Marvel because of their real life 4th wall gags but that doesn't mean beyond fiction or Outer either. Nothing at all about meta fiction scales it as some unreachable tier outside of other meta fiction arguments.
VSBWiki is infamous for their heavy highball scaling of DC and their reputation isn't downplaying, it's upscaling to ludicrous levels when the context of the very comics they're looking into says otherwise. They're flat-out biased for DC. All the Heralds are actually High Outerversal to them.
This I don't understand. They have capped DC at Complex Multi for a long time. They've scaled the heralds at Solar System for much of their time. Had entire threads devoted to debunking Uni or higher DC. Even now they scale majority of heralds at Low Multi or lower. They are infamous for bias against DC for a long time. That's just being revisionist. Only recently have they've started being a bit more open to it.
No where is it stated the Anti-Spiral transcends the concept of dimensionality. "Greater than time and dimensions" does not mean that and requires a similarly very generous interpretation to do so.
That literally means transcending, meaning greater than time and space. The manga, novel, and data books even give very good arguments for Outerversal Level for the Anti-Spiral.
Not what that means at all. You do realize R>F means Outer right? Nothing about affecting the fiction you're in means being beyond Outer or fiction in general. Nothing about it transcends typical Outerversal. R>F is just one argument for Outer. Outer via meta fictional arguments and Outer via dimensionality arguments are still both Outer.
I remember you thinking the Looney Tunes were comparable or stronger than DC and Marvel because of their real life 4th wall gags but that doesn't mean beyond fiction or Outer either. Nothing at all about meta fiction scales it as some unreachable tier outside of other meta fiction arguments.
It's still far greater than anything Kyle has done, as he struggles to do what Simon is capable of at his weakest without it killing him. If anything, it's a higher level of Outerversal Level of powers that Kyle isn't capable of.
This I don't understand. They have capped DC at Complex Multi for a long time. They've scaled the heralds at Solar System for much of their time. Had entire threads devoted to debunking Uni or higher DC. Even now they scale majority of heralds at Low Multi or lower. They are infamous for bias against DC for a long time. That's just being revisionist. Only recently have they've started being a bit more open to it.
Then we're clearly looking at a different VSBWiki pages, they make and highball all the DC characters up to Outerversal Levels of power and ludicrous levels without even looking at the context.
That literally means transcending, meaning greater than time and space. The manga, novel, and data books even give very good arguments for Outerversal Level for the Anti-Spiral.
"Greater than" does not inherently mean transcending and transcending space and time aren't inherently Outer anyway. The extended material never mentions the concept of dimensionality. Even the G1 Blog who argued a clean 15-0 sweep for Simon, translated and examined all the extended material's statements and nothing there was Outerversal so the Otoko stuff was argued for it.
It's still far greater than anything Kyle has done, as he struggles to do what Simon is capable of at his weakest without it killing him. If anything, it's a higher level of Outerversal Level of powers that Kyle isn't capable of.
One being unable to fully handle it does not mean the other is a higher level of Outer. It's just Outer.
Then we're clearly looking at a different VSBWiki pages, they make and highball all the DC characters up to Outerversal Levels of power and ludicrous levels without even looking at the context.
Are you sure you're not looking at CSAP or something? They scale characters super high but VSBWiki pages don't reflect every DC character being Outer at all.
"Greater than" does not inherently mean transcending and transcending space and time aren't inherently Outer anyway. The extended material never mentions the concept of dimensionality. Even the G1 Blog who argued a clean 15-0 sweep for Simon, translated and examined all the extended material's statements and nothing there was Outerversal so the Otoko stuff was argued for it.
Being greater than and transcending space-time does make you Outerversal Level as the Anti-Spiral is able to casually create higher-dimensional structures like the Multiverse Labyrinth and the fact that said structure created an alternate Simon with Outerversal Levels of power, that shows that the Anti-Spiral is also capable of this level of power and that it exists beyond space-time and dimensions as well can erase concepts from existence. This shows that the Anti-Spiral exists beyond conventional space-time.
One being unable to fully handle it does not mean the other is a higher level of Outer. It's just Outer.
It does when one can't handle the power whereas the other can with no issue and continue growing stronger with no drawbacks.
Are you sure you're not looking at CSAP or something? They scale characters super high but VSBWiki pages don't reflect every DC character being Outer at all.
I'm talking about VSBWiki, as that site used to upscale and highball DC characters to ludicrous levels even Post-Crisis Firestorm was Outerverse Level according to them.
Being greater than and transcending space-time does make you Outerversal Level as the Anti-Spiral is able to casually create higher-dimensional structures like the Multiverse Labyrinth and the fact that said structure created an alternate Simon with Outerversal Levels of power, that shows that the Anti-Spiral is also capable of this level of power and that it exists beyond space-time and dimensions as well can erase concepts from existence. This shows that the Anti-Spiral exists beyond conventional space-time.
Transcending all concepts of space, time and dimensionality can be argued Outerversal. General statements about greater or transcending time, dimensions, etc. are not enough though. You realize how many characters would be argued Outer if "beyond/greater/transcending time and space" alone was Outer?
Also you misread what I said initially. The Anti-Spiral without the argument of scaling to Simon after absorbing Otoko, has no Outer arguments. If you buy Otoko being Outer than yes Anti-Spiral would be Outer via fighting Simon after that. My point was that with only the general statements without Otoko, he would not scale him to Outer.
It does when one can't handle the power whereas the other can with no issue and continue growing stronger with no drawbacks.
It does not mean a higher level of Outer though. It's the same level of Outer. One character being unable to fully control it while the other can just means he's better at controlling it.
I'm talking about VSBWiki, as that site used to upscale and highball DC characters to ludicrous levels even Post-Crisis Firestorm was Outerverse Level according to them.
Have not really seen that and if it is, he's long been downgraded to Low Multi or lower which is where the vast majority of heralds have been for years .
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u/Nin_Saber Ash Vs Yugi Fan 7d ago
This is honestly why I wouldn't mind another cosmic tier DC VS Marvel fight because I'm genuinely curious if they still buy their cosmologies being comparable. Not only did they seemingly scale DC lower in Simon VS Kyle but they even buffed Marvel with the layers explained in the results. Like, they added so many layers that you can barely even see "Astral Plane" in there lol.