For Base Kyle, that can kind of make sense but it doesn't for Simon. Simon is argued 11D because of absorbing the Multiversal Labyrinth. Since absorbing it meant absorbing Otoko Simon, he wouldn't be 11D in base, he'd be Outer in base by their logic.
There were some statements that did refer to universes but there were a few that people still debated as they could be referring to infinite dimensions as well along with an author statement. Either way though, the G1 blog used VSBWiki to argue against Outer Godsphere but ignored that VSBWiki buys the Godsphere being Outer despite having a bias against DC. Also, when referring to R>F for DC Death Battle mentioned "platonic, archetypal" realm but that description is for the Godsphere not just the Source.
There are no infinite dimensions in Gurren Lagann. It's just 11D and then argued as Outer because of Otoko. There's no in-between.
Regardless, even if that's where they were scaled, it only supports my other point. Previously, they did scale the DC multiverse as infinite dimensional with transcendent realms like Speed Force, Godsphere, etc. being above them. So this is a lower scaling and thus a nerf of DC compared to what it was prior and invalidates many of their wins against Marvel.
Except the Godsphere is not Outerversal Level. It's only Hyperversal Level as it's still bound by ordinary physics like vibrations and String Theory and the actual context of the comics confirms that the "infinite dimensions" is just referring to the number of universes. The author statement is most likely referring to the DC multiverse having an infinite number of universes than dimensional layers and the fact that the context disapproves the "infinite dimensional layers" argument by showing that the God-Sphere is bound by physics pretty much confirms this.
Simon leaped from 3D to 11D after overcoming and absorbing the Multiverse Labyrinth but instantly became Outversal Level in his base form after defeating the Anti-Spiral with his bare hands, and the Anti-Spiral is a being that transcends and exists beyond time, space, and dimensions; that's above even the likes of the God-Sphere and the Monitor-Sphere, which are still bound by space-time and physics.
Kyle can only reach Outerversal Level when he reaches the Source, which again is a level of power that Simon has already achieved by beating the Anti-Spiral in his base form and when referring to the Otoko scaling, they never mentioned that "platonic, archetypal" realm; they're referring how that alternate Simon brought his fictional work to life, that fictional Simon not only escaping his media, recognised he's in a "sound dimension" a dimension with no visuals except voices, tore apart and repaired the very CD he was in, and nearly tore a hole open into the real world. That's beyond Outerversal and actually affecting meta narratives.
The novels and data books have arguments for Gurren Lagaan having infinite dimensional layers too, but it doesn't matter as Simon has already transcended concepts like time, space, and dimensions.
Meanwhile, Kyle struggles with the Life Equation and is only High Outerversal at best.
That's ignoring the other arguments made for it but if you buy it there than more power to you. The Source being the the only Outer thing in DC is still a humongous nerf from where they scaled DC prior so the fact remains that it was nerfed in Simon VS Kyle regardless.
The Anti-Spiral himself has no argument for beyond 11D aside from scaling to Simon's Outer after the Labyrinth. the lines of transcending time and being greater than dimensions aren't Outer or anything. And just like some users that try to say "greater than dimensions" means Outer, that isn't the case.
Meta narrative does not scale beyond fiction or inherently above Outer. I hope you realize that. The CD scaling IS the argument for Outer. There is no argument for Simon being beyond Outer.
VSBWiki being biased for DC is silly. They have long had the reputation of downplaying and intense scrutinizing of DC. Even going through great efforts to go against the heralds being Uni. They are not at all bias for it.
That's ignoring the other arguments made for it but if you buy it there than more power to you. The Source being the the only Outer thing in DC is still a humongous nerf from where they scaled DC prior so the fact remains that it was nerfed in Simon VS Kyle regardless.
Those arguments mean nothing when the very context contradicts them and the author's statement heavily implies it's just referring to an infinite number of universes, rather than dimensional layers.
The Anti-Spiral himself has no argument for beyond 11D aside from scaling to Simon's Outer after the Labyrinth. the lines of transcending time and being greater than dimensions aren't Outer or anything. And just like some users that try to say "greater than dimensions" means Outer, that isn't the case.
The Anti-Spiral has been said to exist beyond the concepts of space, time, and dimensions. That alone puts it and base Simon around Outerversal Level since they're beyond such concepts while dimensions like the Bleed, Godsphere, and Monitor-Sphere are still bound by physics and space-time.
Meta narrative does not scale beyond fiction or inherently above Outer. I hope you realize that. The CD scaling IS the argument for Outer. There is no argument for Simon being beyond Outer.
Avant Simon literally tore apart the very CD, the very form of media, he was in with his power. If that's not arguments for R>F, then I don't know what it is. Breaking the form of fiction you're in is much superior to simply transcending normal time and space.
This transcends typical Outeversal Levels of power and is a level of power that not even Kyle can perform at his best. In fact, he struggles to do so as he lacks control of the Life Equation.
VSBWiki being biased for DC is silly. They have long had the reputation of downplaying and intense scrutinizing of DC. Even going through great efforts to go against the heralds being Uni. They are not at all bias for it.
VSBWiki is infamous for their heavy highball scaling of DC and their reputation isn't downplaying, it's upscaling to ludicrous levels when the context of the very comics they're looking into says otherwise. They're flat-out biased for DC. All the Heralds are actually High Outerversal to them.
The Anti-Spiral has been said to exist beyond the concepts of space, time, and dimensions. That alone puts it and base Simon around Outerversal Level since they're beyond such concepts while dimensions like the Bleed, Godsphere, and Monitor-Sphere are still bound by physics and space-time.
No where is it stated the Anti-Spiral transcends the concept of dimensionality. "Greater than time and dimensions" does not mean that and requires a similarly very generous interpretation to do so.
Avant Simon literally tore apart the very CD, the very form of media, he was in with his power. If that's not arguments for R>F, then I don't know what it is. Breaking the form of fiction you're in is much superior to simply transcending normal time and space.
This transcends typical Outeversal Levels of power and is a level of power that not even Kyle can perform at his best. In fact, he struggles to do so as he lacks control of the Life Equation.
Not what that means at all. You do realize R>F means Outer right? Nothing about affecting the fiction you're in means being beyond Outer or fiction in general. Nothing about it transcends typical Outerversal. R>F is just one argument for Outer. Outer via meta fictional arguments and Outer via dimensionality arguments are still both Outer.
I remember you thinking the Looney Tunes were comparable or stronger than DC and Marvel because of their real life 4th wall gags but that doesn't mean beyond fiction or Outer either. Nothing at all about meta fiction scales it as some unreachable tier outside of other meta fiction arguments.
VSBWiki is infamous for their heavy highball scaling of DC and their reputation isn't downplaying, it's upscaling to ludicrous levels when the context of the very comics they're looking into says otherwise. They're flat-out biased for DC. All the Heralds are actually High Outerversal to them.
This I don't understand. They have capped DC at Complex Multi for a long time. They've scaled the heralds at Solar System for much of their time. Had entire threads devoted to debunking Uni or higher DC. Even now they scale majority of heralds at Low Multi or lower. They are infamous for bias against DC for a long time. That's just being revisionist. Only recently have they've started being a bit more open to it.
No where is it stated the Anti-Spiral transcends the concept of dimensionality. "Greater than time and dimensions" does not mean that and requires a similarly very generous interpretation to do so.
That literally means transcending, meaning greater than time and space. The manga, novel, and data books even give very good arguments for Outerversal Level for the Anti-Spiral.
Not what that means at all. You do realize R>F means Outer right? Nothing about affecting the fiction you're in means being beyond Outer or fiction in general. Nothing about it transcends typical Outerversal. R>F is just one argument for Outer. Outer via meta fictional arguments and Outer via dimensionality arguments are still both Outer.
I remember you thinking the Looney Tunes were comparable or stronger than DC and Marvel because of their real life 4th wall gags but that doesn't mean beyond fiction or Outer either. Nothing at all about meta fiction scales it as some unreachable tier outside of other meta fiction arguments.
It's still far greater than anything Kyle has done, as he struggles to do what Simon is capable of at his weakest without it killing him. If anything, it's a higher level of Outerversal Level of powers that Kyle isn't capable of.
This I don't understand. They have capped DC at Complex Multi for a long time. They've scaled the heralds at Solar System for much of their time. Had entire threads devoted to debunking Uni or higher DC. Even now they scale majority of heralds at Low Multi or lower. They are infamous for bias against DC for a long time. That's just being revisionist. Only recently have they've started being a bit more open to it.
Then we're clearly looking at a different VSBWiki pages, they make and highball all the DC characters up to Outerversal Levels of power and ludicrous levels without even looking at the context.
That literally means transcending, meaning greater than time and space. The manga, novel, and data books even give very good arguments for Outerversal Level for the Anti-Spiral.
"Greater than" does not inherently mean transcending and transcending space and time aren't inherently Outer anyway. The extended material never mentions the concept of dimensionality. Even the G1 Blog who argued a clean 15-0 sweep for Simon, translated and examined all the extended material's statements and nothing there was Outerversal so the Otoko stuff was argued for it.
It's still far greater than anything Kyle has done, as he struggles to do what Simon is capable of at his weakest without it killing him. If anything, it's a higher level of Outerversal Level of powers that Kyle isn't capable of.
One being unable to fully handle it does not mean the other is a higher level of Outer. It's just Outer.
Then we're clearly looking at a different VSBWiki pages, they make and highball all the DC characters up to Outerversal Levels of power and ludicrous levels without even looking at the context.
Are you sure you're not looking at CSAP or something? They scale characters super high but VSBWiki pages don't reflect every DC character being Outer at all.
"Greater than" does not inherently mean transcending and transcending space and time aren't inherently Outer anyway. The extended material never mentions the concept of dimensionality. Even the G1 Blog who argued a clean 15-0 sweep for Simon, translated and examined all the extended material's statements and nothing there was Outerversal so the Otoko stuff was argued for it.
Being greater than and transcending space-time does make you Outerversal Level as the Anti-Spiral is able to casually create higher-dimensional structures like the Multiverse Labyrinth and the fact that said structure created an alternate Simon with Outerversal Levels of power, that shows that the Anti-Spiral is also capable of this level of power and that it exists beyond space-time and dimensions as well can erase concepts from existence. This shows that the Anti-Spiral exists beyond conventional space-time.
One being unable to fully handle it does not mean the other is a higher level of Outer. It's just Outer.
It does when one can't handle the power whereas the other can with no issue and continue growing stronger with no drawbacks.
Are you sure you're not looking at CSAP or something? They scale characters super high but VSBWiki pages don't reflect every DC character being Outer at all.
I'm talking about VSBWiki, as that site used to upscale and highball DC characters to ludicrous levels even Post-Crisis Firestorm was Outerverse Level according to them.
Being greater than and transcending space-time does make you Outerversal Level as the Anti-Spiral is able to casually create higher-dimensional structures like the Multiverse Labyrinth and the fact that said structure created an alternate Simon with Outerversal Levels of power, that shows that the Anti-Spiral is also capable of this level of power and that it exists beyond space-time and dimensions as well can erase concepts from existence. This shows that the Anti-Spiral exists beyond conventional space-time.
Transcending all concepts of space, time and dimensionality can be argued Outerversal. General statements about greater or transcending time, dimensions, etc. are not enough though. You realize how many characters would be argued Outer if "beyond/greater/transcending time and space" alone was Outer?
Also you misread what I said initially. The Anti-Spiral without the argument of scaling to Simon after absorbing Otoko, has no Outer arguments. If you buy Otoko being Outer than yes Anti-Spiral would be Outer via fighting Simon after that. My point was that with only the general statements without Otoko, he would not scale him to Outer.
It does when one can't handle the power whereas the other can with no issue and continue growing stronger with no drawbacks.
It does not mean a higher level of Outer though. It's the same level of Outer. One character being unable to fully control it while the other can just means he's better at controlling it.
I'm talking about VSBWiki, as that site used to upscale and highball DC characters to ludicrous levels even Post-Crisis Firestorm was Outerverse Level according to them.
Have not really seen that and if it is, he's long been downgraded to Low Multi or lower which is where the vast majority of heralds have been for years .
Transcending all concepts of space, time and dimensionality can be argued Outerversal. General statements about greater or transcending time, dimensions, etc. are not enough though. You realize how many characters would be argued Outer if "beyond/greater/transcending time and space" alone was Outer?
Also you misread what I said initially. The Anti-Spiral without the argument of scaling to Simon after absorbing Otoko, has no Outer arguments. If you buy Otoko being Outer than yes Anti-Spiral would be Outer via fighting Simon after that. My point was that with only the general statements without Otoko, he would not scale him to Outer.
The statements are valid, in this case. As you and I mentioned, the Anti-Spiral creates the Multiverse Labyrinth that created the Outerversal Level alternate Simon. That Simon is still a product of his creation as the Multiverse Labyrinth is tied to its power. So the Anti-Spiral exists beyond time, space, and dimensions makes it Outerversal.
Also, these statements are valid as they're from the novels and data books themselves and came straight from the creator. The creators of the series admit that it intentionally makes multiple references to brane theory, and higher-dimensional concepts that are consistent with the author's statements and that the Anti-Spiral is Outerversal, especially since it casually took down Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagaan, which also transcended space, time, and dimensions; forcing to evolve even further beyond till he could take the Anti-Spiral down with just his bare hands.
It does not mean a higher level of Outer though. It's the same level of Outer. One character being unable to fully control it while the other can just means he's better at controlling it.
This actually means a lot more than you think. Kyle can't use this power properly on his own and doing so will kill him. Meanwhile, Simon can attain a similar level of power and keep growing stronger.
One struggles to properly wield power that has a high chance of killing him and the other can use it fairly well with no such drawback and can keep growing stronger.
Simply put, Simon will grow stronger to the point that Kyle will eventually be overwhelmed and his power will get overtaxed.
The statements are valid, in this case. As you and I mentioned, the Anti-Spiral creates the Multiverse Labyrinth that created the Outerversal Level alternate Simon. That Simon is still a product of his creation as the Multiverse Labyrinth is tied to its power. So the Anti-Spiral exists beyond time, space, and dimensions makes it Outerversal.
Also, these statements are valid as they're from the novels and data books themselves and came straight from the creator. The creators of the series admit that it intentionally makes multiple references to brane theory, and higher-dimensional concepts that are consistent with the author's statements and that the Anti-Spiral is Outerversal, especially since it casually took down Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagaan, which also transcended space, time, and dimensions; forcing to evolve even further beyond till he could take the Anti-Spiral down with just his bare hands.
I never said the statements weren't valid as in they couldn't be used. I just said they alone don't scale to Outer. None of the statements mention transcending the concepts of time, space and dimensionality and thus it just isn't Outer by itself. The author's statements aren't explicit enough for Outer thus it is not Outer.
I never said the statements weren't valid as in they couldn't be used. I just said they alone don't scale to Outer. None of the statements mention transcending the concepts of time, space and dimensionality and thus it just isn't Outer by itself. The author's statements aren't explicit enough for Outer thus it is not Outer.
The Gurren Lagann guide book, Final Drill, states that the Anti-Spiral's universe is a brane universe that is isolated from any of the infinite-dimensional layers and that it exists and is located between the membranes of the 10th and 11th dimensions. This means that the Anti-Spiral specifically created an isolated universe that exists outside the outside normal space-time, in an oscillating space-time that literally exists between those higher-dimensional membranes.
The novel even describes this isolated brane universe as having different dimensional axes, existing between the 10th and 11th dimensions in an “imaginary oscillating space-time”. It further elaborates that this universe exists completely under the control of the Anti-Spiral, with concepts like time, creation, and death being under its control. Lordgenome even describes them as “the creators of this universe itself”.
All these statements strongly confirm that the Anti-Spiral exists outside of and transcends conventional space and time, with the novel emphasising that the Anti-Spiral is “separated from continuous time and space”, and that the Anti-Spiral controls all aspects of its existence.
There was no mention of infinite dimensional layers in a higher sense. Existing outside of time and space is not Outer either though. Plus, being the "creator of this universe itself" and manipulating aspects of it aren't Outer either. All of the translated statements were already examined by many at this point and they still don't get to Outer by themselves.
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u/Nin_Saber Ash Vs Yugi Fan 6d ago
For Base Kyle, that can kind of make sense but it doesn't for Simon. Simon is argued 11D because of absorbing the Multiversal Labyrinth. Since absorbing it meant absorbing Otoko Simon, he wouldn't be 11D in base, he'd be Outer in base by their logic.
There were some statements that did refer to universes but there were a few that people still debated as they could be referring to infinite dimensions as well along with an author statement. Either way though, the G1 blog used VSBWiki to argue against Outer Godsphere but ignored that VSBWiki buys the Godsphere being Outer despite having a bias against DC. Also, when referring to R>F for DC Death Battle mentioned "platonic, archetypal" realm but that description is for the Godsphere not just the Source.
There are no infinite dimensions in Gurren Lagann. It's just 11D and then argued as Outer because of Otoko. There's no in-between.
Regardless, even if that's where they were scaled, it only supports my other point. Previously, they did scale the DC multiverse as infinite dimensional with transcendent realms like Speed Force, Godsphere, etc. being above them. So this is a lower scaling and thus a nerf of DC compared to what it was prior and invalidates many of their wins against Marvel.