What happens as a volunteer firefighter when a fire clashes with work?

[u/Popular_Ordinary6272]

I am not a ff but am pretty curious what happens to a volunteer firefighter if there is a fire that leads into work hours. For example, if a fire starts at 6 am and goes till 10ish but you are commuting with a 9-5. Would you call in sick, just leave the fire to work, or not even show up to the fire?

[u/sprayman2019]

Depends on your career I guess, Professionally I am a Farmer/John Deere ag salesman, Vol. fire lieutenant for 10 years. If its a big event I will stay until we're done especially in winter or slow months. Busy Season I will leave at an appropriate time and head back to work.

[u/HondaRousey9]

Most states have laws in place to protect volunteer fire fighters in cases like that

[u/Whitehammer2001 → u/HondaRousey9]

For Nebraksa the law doesn’t allow you to leave work but protects you from getting fired if you went to a call before work. Now it doesn’t protect you from getting hours cut down cause it’s not being fired

[u/biker26 → u/Whitehammer2001]

I believe it’s the same in Wisconsin but they can’t cut your hours though they don’t have to pay you for the hours you missed

[u/Whitehammer2001 → u/biker26]

I’m sure it’s implied here but you can’t really imply a law unless someone fights it which not many volunteers are rich enough to fight in court over something like that

[u/biker26 → u/Whitehammer2001]

Volunteer depts went to the state because of manpower issues and got it to protect volunteers like that! I was a volunteer firefighter for 14-15 years in Wisconsin and was never disciplined in anyway shape or form due to a call…

[u/Whitehammer2001 → u/biker26]

I was threatened and withheld a lot during fire season at my last job I finally had enough of it cause the owner was a dick. Don’t order this why didn’t you order this, we have so much in inventory quit ordering this shit (cheap things we use daily for the shop) why isn’t this 1,500 door in stock for this only one model or Polaris.

[u/biker26 → u/Whitehammer2001]

Nope if you missed any work due to a call before your scheduled shift in Wisconsin the employer canNOT discipline you at all!

[u/ChiCityCharlie → u/Whitehammer2001]

Typically the state’s attorney or labor board would take on something like this. I’ve heard from a politician (I know, I know) the law in our state is written as if we’re a protected class. So, you wouldn’t need a private lawyer (but it wouldn’t hurt) to make your case.

[u/Whitehammer2001 → u/ChiCityCharlie]

Something I thought of that might be a LPT for us is take on an attorney up for an office, nothings better for publicity than helping a working class hero

[u/ChiCityCharlie → u/Whitehammer2001]

Had the same thought. I imagine every politician from the town dog catcher to the govenor would lean in to help a local hero.

[u/Material-Win-2781 → u/biker26]

Drastically cutting your hour hoping you will quit can be considered constructive termination. A job doing this in an area with significant volunteer FF needs probably would not be looked kindly upon by a judge.

[u/castironburrito → u/biker26]

Most of Wisconsin's legislators live in Districts with no full-time departments.

[u/biker26 → u/castironburrito]

Which is why it was pushed through so easily here to have so many protections for volunteer firefighters because those people wanted their homes protected and not have to worry that people are not going to be responding

[u/castironburrito → u/biker26]

That was my point. ask me about Platteville FD and the Grant Co. judge back in the late 70s-early 80s.

[u/Single_Ad5427 → u/HondaRousey9]

Holy cow i never knew that. I wonder what it is for georgia

[u/bikemancs]

I always keep a day or two of leave on hand. My bosses are very understanding about me being a volunteer. I've texted my boss after getting back to the station after being out overnight stating I'll be in late or be taking the day as a partial telework or off.

Communicate with them ahead of time. Make sure they know you know there are limits. If I have a big meeting or a deadline, I don't respond the previous evening so I will make it in.

[u/Huge_Monk8722]

I stay at work as my employer does not allow me to leave. State provides protection kind of. But our state is a at will employer so they don't really need a reason.

[u/thatdudewayoverthere]

For a country so dependent on Volunteers the laws aren't really supportive

For example in Germany your employer can't do anything if you get a call and even if the call is over before work starts you have a mandatory brake if needed due to call length etc

Your employer on the other hand can get compensated for you missing work by the state if he wishes to do so

[u/CaptPotter47]

I look at it like this. What job pays my bills?

So yes, I will leave the fire to go home and take a shower and go to my office.

[u/Tasty_Path_3470]

In NJ there is a law where you cannot be penalized for coming in late or missing work due to a fire call, but it would probably be in your best interest to notify your boss what’s going on.

[u/Popular_Ordinary6272 → u/Tasty_Path_3470]

I am thinking about volunteering in nj so thats a lil nice to know but trying to work in corporate finance so these companies probably dont give a f.

[u/Tasty_Path_3470 → u/Popular_Ordinary6272]

There’s no “standard” as to how they handle it, just that they can’t penalize you for being late or missing work (so long as it’s reasonable). I’ve spoken to some other guys and some of them will get paid for the time they missed, others just get no pay, but no penalty but allow you to use sick/vac/comp to get paid. Leaving work for a call is a different story. There’s no state law safety blanket there. Some places allow you to leave with permission, others allow you to leave with sick time. It’s all up to your company/boss. My prior job employed a couple volunteer FFs and the policy was you can’t respond to any call within 45 minutes of the start of the work day, but if you were late due to a call you got paid for the time, and you could leave for a call as long as you had permission and you weren’t the last one left in your department.

But the one standard is that there is in fact a law for volunteer fire/ems protections in NJ regarding calls prior to the start of the workday.

[u/cascas → u/Popular_Ordinary6272]

Night time is the great equalizer for volunteers. Not everyone can leave Wall Street at 1 pm but everyone can get out of bed at 2 am.

[u/Indiancockburn → u/Tasty_Path_3470]

You will have to take your own time off though, they just can't fire you for it.

However, they can fire you for other "unrelated" issues.

[u/Signal_Reflection297]

I tell my CO when I have work or family commitments that I will need to leave the scene for. They happily come find me when it’s time to head out.

[u/Resqu23]

My job respects our public safety depts and if the alert goes off for any call I stop what I’m doing and go. I’m on salary and don’t count that time off. I don’t leave for fire alarms because 99.9% are nothing unless they are close to my job site and I can go clear it and save a FD response. This allows me to be the busiest member on my department with an 80% response rate, next closest guy is 65%.

[u/d2020ysf]

My job allowed 4 hours of PTO for volunteer work, they were okay if I was late or had to leave early.

[u/MaleficentCoconut594]

Totally depends. Most of my job roles in the company they understood and I had leeway. They knew my personality and I was not a “no call no show” type of person so in the rare event that happened they would assume it was a fire. I will say in 10yrs that never happened, we only averaged between in district and mutual aid maybe 10 fires a year. I missed a lot if they were during the day and I was a towel, couldn’t leave early and even if I could I was nowhere close.

The only time it clashed with work we had a major brush fire that the entire county was activated for, and half of the neighboring county. It started a few hours before I got home from work but literally 4mi from my house we got toned out so I went straight to the station and we were out there until 4am. I called my boss around 7am and told her what happened, I didn’t even need to ask she told me to take a sick day and get some rest. She was a dope manager, and we’re still good friends to this day as we’ve both climbed the ladder and parted ways within the company. I only had 1 boss that probably would have made it an issue, so my rule is I wouldn’t go to any call after 2am. Luckily she was only my manager for about 1yr and then I promoted away

Unfortunately for the volley system it relies on people to be around. You can’t just leave work. I always say if you live within a volley fire district, pray that if you’re house has to catch fire that it happens after 6pm or during the weekend

[u/Illustrious_Guava_87]

You're not required to respond to all fires. Our dept. goal is 20%. But most of us seek out jobs that will be able to accommodate leaving to go to a scene if we have to.

[u/DFPFilms1]

“It depends”

Where I volunteered, city workers who were a member of the fire department could go on calls while on the clock.

This was practical for some guys (like those who worked for the DOT and were usually out and about anyway) but impractical for others - like teachers who couldn’t exactly leave their students.

[u/TheMarathonNY]

I personally won't respond to calls that will make me late to work and I will never leave work to respond to a call. At the end of the day the volunteer fire dept isn't paying my bills. I'm not getting evicted from my house and being homeless for anyone. And yes there's law protecting vffs but at the end of the day it's an At will state and I can be fired for being 1min late if they want to

[u/ch4lox]

The majority of calls aren't serious enough to miss work, confirmed structure fires are usually an exception... Everyone makes the call individually based on their availability at the time of the call.

Even on a fire scene, the Chief tries to send back half or more of the people who need to go back as soon as things are wound down... Everyone understands work and other obligations are important.

Our department has a minimum 17% call response requirement - if your work and life obligations over a year don't allow for that, they have the talk about if this is really for you (and there's no hard feelings at all).

[u/Fireguy9641]

First and foremost, as a volunteer company, we preach that members need to do their best to avoid these situations. No one should be losing a job over a volunteer fire company.

Most of our members who sleep in will not take calls if it's within 2-3 hours of their report time for work. We are ok with that because we'd rather take the hit with a short and have them keep coming around, vs have them have to step back because they are in trouble at work.

For my job personally, we get 3 Personal Days a year. These are separate from our vacation leave in that they don't need to be requested ahead of time and cannot be denied, so I always kept one for a situation like this.

[u/BitOff2Much2Chew]

My work is generally fine with things like that as long as they're notified but I WFH mostly and we also have a dispatch system where you can mark yourself unavailable and I will sometimes do that leading up to an important meeting or something. If I want to leave a scene early I'd need to arrange my own transportation and it could be a bad look tbh.

You also never quite know what you're going to get for some calls so it's difficult to say how long it will take you ahead of time.

A lot of the other firefighters I work with either have their own business so can get away with it, can work from home too or work as part of a large crew so their presence won't be missed as much. It's common for people to send messages or make quick calls in the truck or on scene to let people know or make arrangements.

[u/[deleted]]

In my area this is one of 100 reasons we have no volunteer departments within an hour of us and even the ones that exists have full time staff. Most work places get real upset if you either leave mid shift or are late consistently.

[u/Mediocre_Daikon6935 → u/[deleted]]

They would get a lot more upset if they had to pay the massive taxes to cover payroll.

But a lot of people are to short sighted to see that.

[u/biker26]

In the state of Wisconsin your full time job unless a cop or firefighter, your employer canNOT hold it against you by state law

[u/officer_panda159]

I’m career fire and i’ve definitely texted and got coverage at my full time hall if I need it

Sometimes i’ll dip out from work early if needed or show up an hour late if I haven’t slept all night

Obviously not all full time halls would support this but i’ve got a pretty good relationship with my crew and Lieutenants and save it for when I’m actually needed

[u/RescueFrog47]

NJ has the exempt law. Can’t be fired if on a call that extends to works hours (don’t get paid though).

[u/Lonely_Emu_700]

I'm going to make the choice that guarantees I can continue feeding my family.

[u/OpiateAlligator]

I remember being up all night on a fire and calling my boss asking if I could call out of the morning shift to get some sleep. Nope. Straight to 8 hours waiting tables.

[u/RobinT211]

Different departments see it differently and so you have to ask your own agency. Many departments have mutual aid agreements with neighboring districts for a major incident and so you muddle through with that especially if a call drops during the workday. Also, a department cannot function well at all if it’s reliant on a very very few volunteers responding to every single call.

What you don’t want to do is cause a headache for command by complicating the response efforts. So in general, if you don’t have the time available to respond, don’t respond. There are many “it depends” cases you could bring up to that, but that is the general rule.

[u/RedditBot90]

depends on the job/who your boss is.

when i was in in-district volunteer (respond from home to a call), i wouldnt respond after like 5am since i knew it would likely make me late for work. there were a few times on larger incidents/longer on scene times where id be late to work id try and text my boss to let them know. boss knew i was a ff and was supportive/ok with occasionally being late.

[u/BigWhiteDog]

I some states vols are protected (used to be here in California, don't know if that's still the case). I just let my work know when hired and it was all good. I would try to advise them if I was out on a call before work. If I had something critical at work I wouldn't respond.

[u/Impressive_Change593]

i have two part time jobs. my one is inside the first due and I'll just up and leave if need be (crashes, structure fires). the other job is a ways away (we also have a large first due and while it might only take me 10 minutes to get the the edge it might take another 30 plus to get to the far edge and we have decent turnout most of the time so it's not a big problem) so I just get mad at my luck and listen in while continuing to work. or if it's the end of the day I've already tried going.

bonus points for that time we got two calls. structure fire and traffic crash at the same time. I stopped at the traffic crash then the engine that showed up said I could go to the fire so I tried and was almost there and they put it out and cancelled everything lol

[u/dbmeed]

My full time job is very flexible, so I can stay on the fire scene into regular work hours, but generally the commanding officers will check with FF’s around 7am to see if anyone needs to leave for work, what time, and re-arrange around that.

[u/firefighter26s]

For us it is up to our members, individually, to manage their time commitments. I'm really big at pushing that we're all adults and we can make good decisions. For many of the members if they don't think they'll be back in time to head to work or some other important event at a scheduled time they don't come to that call. If they're on a call and it's running a lot longer than anticipated, they'll get rotated out and sent back to the station so they can get their gear back into service and leave in time. We use to have one guy who would constantly come into the station for a call and say "I have to leave in XYZ minutes for ABC reason." - "Cool, you're not coming on this call then." - He quickly got the idea.

For me, going back a few years to when I started a new job I had a very open conversation with my boss that I was very passionate about the Fire Service and that it was very important to me. I was clear that there would be some days were I might be late because I was at a fire or car accident, but I would always stay late to make sure my tasks were done and that he would always get the extra effort out of me to make sure it didn't have a negative impact, overall, on deadlines. That was the deal we made, if I was late I stayed late to make it up.

Fast forward to today, I'm the boss now. Bought the company when he retired. I've actually integrated a set number of hours per year into our employee package for paid time off specifically for volunteering; not necessarily in the fire service, but it could be at an animal rescue, chaperone on a kid's field trip, etc, etc. Since I trust my employees to get to work when I am not around I don't mind taking those close to work hours type calls because I have the luxury to be able to adjust my hours.

[u/MisguidedMuchacho]

TL;DR It depends on your employer.

We have some local employers that are ok with their guys leaving for calls. Ironically, the county doesn’t allow employees to leave work.

I work remotely. My previous employer had a very gracious policy. They allowed me to volunteer up to I think it was 240 hours per year. And if the dept had a 501c3, they would’ve donated $25/hr that I volunteered. Manager’s discretion and I had a great manager. It was never an issue.

I have a new employer. I discussed it up front and they allow 16 hours per year. So far it hasn’t been an issue.

We run thin so it bothers me if there is a call and I can’t make it because of work. But I have to work. It’s just the way it is.

It will take a big incident and nobody being available before our county gets their head out of their ass and goes combination. But make no mistake, their problem is not my problem.

[u/[deleted]]

Work always comes first for me, I only really respond to things in the evening.

[u/[deleted]]

It just depends on the job situation. I get to come and go as I please for fire as long as my job gets done. I've got some flexibility, so that's nice. They let me stay clocked while I'm on a call. Sometimes it's an all day thing. It's not really clear what happens if I miss a full day because of a call though. Haven't had to do that yet.

[u/Pinko3150]

I let them know I'll be late/won't be in, when I do go in I provide a department letterhead confirming where I was, I get paid my normal rate for the time I wasn't there. Civil leave. I can also leave and continue to get paid for the remainder of my day, but rarely do that unless it's a big thing

[u/FossMan21]

It’s all going to depend on your department. Best to ask how they handle the requirements. Ask if you are able to be excused. If it may conflict don’t go. I’ve had to miss a fire or two because my wife had to go to work and no one would be home to get my son to daycare.

[u/pirate_12]

I am a carpenter by trade and the project manager I work with most is also a volly in his town nearby. Because I work in the town I volunteer in, my bosses are very understanding about letting me leave work to respond to a fire or other call.

[u/Tasty_Explanation_20]

Depends. Many states have protections built in for volunteer firefighters where companies are not allowed to discipline volunteers for responding to fires. That said, a lot of it boils down to the personal thoughts of the person as well as just how understanding the management of their job is.

When I joined my department, I was told our order of priority is family, job, firefighting. You can’t make every call and that’s ok. When it comes to conflicts with other commitments, this is the hierarchy to follow.

Not every call is worth skipping work or family events for. Meemaw with the stubbed toe for instance isn’t going to be a good excuse for missing work. A fully involved structure fire on the other hand….

Your scenario has happened to a couple of the guys on my department a few times. Dispatched for an early morning structure fire, on scene working it for several hours. They would call in to their work during rehab to let their jobs know what was going on and depending on timeframe, they would either be late or unable to make it to work. We have also had a few where members have left work early to get to a fire to pitch in.

[u/lImbus924]

In Germany the situation is very well regulated, from a legal stand point. Plus, where I live, I am given a lot of room for decision.

• the employer has to let me go / accept that I am late. In return, through a form or two, they can claim my "outage" with the city (who runs the fire dept). Technically I have never had to do that. I can arrange when I work, and I just catch it up later or deduct it from overtime.
• if a mission goes into the late hours and the early hours of the morning, I am allowed for the same rest that the law prescribes for "normal" work. (In Germany, with few exceptions, you are not allowed to start working earlier than 11 hours after you stopped working). In theory, if I come home at 7am from a fire, my employer does not see me. In practice, to avoid paperwork and friction, I short term change this into a work-from-home day, keep myself available for the urgent and important things, nap a bit inbetween and work with the overtime sheet.
• in my local fire department (and I know this is different in other places in germany), it is okay to now show up for a call. I've never *had* to explain myself (of course I have the urge to do). We don't announce vacations or absence, medical unavailability etc. So my plan is to NOT bail if I am sitting in a sufficient important meeting. So that is always an option, technically.
• once committed to a call/fire, I would never leave early. I don't frown if somebody has to leave for other obligations, I don't judge. But I do not have any other obligations, I'm cool with my employer, so I can stay for cleanup etc.

[u/orlock]

My brigade in my country but, anyway, there's several layers to this:

• Our mantra is always, "Family, work, brigade, in that order." We're fine with people hitting thumbs down if they think it's going to impact work.
• Many businesses are accepting (I wouldn't say thrilled) of complications caused by incidents that run on. It's important to have that upfront conversation with the employer and keep them informed. Many large businesses have fairly generous policies covering volunteer emergency services and there's a level of legal protection.
• If things are not covered by any of this and someone says "I really need to go by XXX" then the crew leader will start making phone calls and arrange a pick-up or swap.

[u/TacoDaTugBoat]

I’m in CT. The state has a law protecting you from punishment for being late due to a call. No coverage for your missed time. I also work for the state, and my contract allows for responding on the clock with supervisor approval. So I have a good relationship with my supervisor. I notify them as soon as is practical, and use my best judgment. I avoid missing meetings and make sure it doesn’t impact my overall performance. I probably use time 10 times a year.

[u/garcon-du-soleille]

It really depends on your job and your boss. The key for me has been 2 fold:

1) Super-communicate. Let everyone, all co-workers, any clients, etc, know that you are a volunteer fire fighter and that you may be called away unexpectedly. If a call has interrupted your work day, take small breaks on scene to keep your boss and impacted co-workers informed via text messages.

2) Make judgement calls when the pager goes off. If your work load is light and you’re don’t have anything critical the next several hours, answer the page. If you’re slammed at work and people are depending on you to hit a pending deadline, then maybe sit that call out.

Following these steps, I’ve never had an issue.

[u/HeartAttackIncoming]

Does being a volunteer firefighter pay your mortgage? No? Than you stay at work. Simple as that. You need to pay your bills.

[u/TrooperFrag]

Here in WV, if we get a call and we go on it and it leads to us being late or missing work, the state prohibits your employer from reprimanding or firing you because of it. That being said, you gotta be responsible with what you do. If a call comes out and it will interfere with your job or family, you gotta choose because at the end of the day, it's volunteer, and you don't get paid for it. Your job and family always come first. If you got your kids, you can't leave them to run a call. If you're late or miss your shift at your job, you lose out on money that you may need to pay bills or put food on the table for your family

[u/MPFields1979]

Depends. A lot of places are cool with you leaving being late for one, sometimes it means you don’t run the call. It’s why it’s such a risky proposition to rely solely on the flexibility of volunteer departments.

[u/[deleted]]

Assuming we have decent coverage, I can leave a fire at any time. But my day job (teaching) would also be okay with it, I'd just need to take a few minutes to call in so they can get a sub, and it'd likely be counted against me as PTO since I work and live in different counties.

[u/firefighter0398]

Here in germany there is a law for this case. Every employer is mandated to let you go to the call. They even have to pay you full salary as normal, but can get the money back from the city/county. There are just a few exceptions, like when you work somewhere, where you are absolutly undisplaceable.

[u/usmclvsop]

Our department always emphasizes actual job > volunteering. If I was fighting a fire from 6-8 and absolutely had to be to the office by 9 I would let command know and they would make arrangements to get me a ride back to the station. It's on me to watch the clock and notify them with enough time to figure out logistics, I can't radio command at 7:59 and expect to be on my way back at 8.

[u/Ordinary-Ad-6350]

Nj you have protections. You need to do ument it though and you can be docked pay.

It happens most people are alright with it

[u/PaulHMA]

I work in tech and volunteer as an EMT with my local FD on Long Island. We have a super flexible WFH policy and as long as I get my work done it doesn’t really matter when I do it. My boss and most of my coworkers know I volunteer and as long as I communicate with my boss and let him know if I’m going to be late or WFH because of a pre-work call I don’t have a problem. When I’m working from home I’m able to take a lot of calls too, it just usually means I’ll work a couple of hours in the evening to make it up.

[u/[deleted]]

Aussie here.

Career firefighter and also volunteer. Job = pays the bills, volunteering doesn't.

If ive got free time/off shift..I'll try to help out.

[u/texruska]

In the UK there isn't any legal protection. My brigade advises to be unavailable 2hrs before any commitments, but it's still happened that I've been tied up and late for work

You just need an employer who is supportive, so in my case I was able to make up the hours with no dramas

The hardest thing for me is having to decide whether or not to use up annual leave for fire service training if there's something happening on a week day

[u/PurduePaul]

Priorities go in this order:

Family

Work

Fire

Make what you can as long as it doesn’t hurt your career or family life. My work is also pretty understanding if I need to go on a call and if things aren’t too busy I can respond.

[u/Automatic-Play9598]

Word

[u/Heliosurge]

A lot will depend on where you are. Best to do a google search on this for your area.

[u/LoftyDog]

Where I vollied, if it was at a fire or something extended and you had to go to work, they'd make sure you had a ride back. Work pays the bills.

[u/Firedancing]

I am a salaried accountant at a manufacturing company. I have an agreement with my work that I will not fall behind on my job if I miss work for a call. It is up to my discretion. I don't leave work if I am in the middle of a meeting or have a big meeting upcoming that I would probably miss if I responded. I am very fortunate to be in this position.