r/Firefighting • u/FruitOrchards • 13d ago
Videos Firefighting drones make their debut in China
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u/blackmamba329 13d ago
I wonder what the friction loss is on that
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u/ironmatic1 13d ago
Nothing compared to elevation
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u/Fif112 13d ago
Forgive me if I’m wrong, but since they’re using hose and not pumping up a standpipe, isn’t the pressure loss per hydraulic length more than the pressure loss due to elevation?
Assuming they’re using a smaller diameter hose, considering the drone has to lift the hose plus the water in it.
Sorry, I’m new to pumping and any explanation would be appreciated!
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u/Sad-Pay5915 13d ago
You need to overcome both those issues. I’d be curious how many gpm they’re getting out of that setup.
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u/Unstablemedic49 FF/Medic 12d ago
Not enough to overtake the BTUs from the fire. It looks like the water is just turning to steam.
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11d ago
You know the captains who always want a 2 1/2” line will lose their minds when they see this! lol
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u/Jessejets 12d ago
When calculating operating pressures, you must account for friction loss, elevation loss, and—if applicable—the nozzle operating pressure. Friction loss will vary depending on the diameter of the hose being used. As a general guideline, elevation loss is approximately 5 psi per floor when dealing with vertical applications.
Based on current observations, most drones are not discharging plain water but rather a water/solution mixture (foam). The use of foam significantly reduces the overall load on the drone by making the hose lighter and easier to manage. This reduction in weight may also decrease the pressure required to effectively operate these devices.
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u/Bubbly-Bowler8978 10d ago
Yeah how much weight are those drones carrying? The hose and the water got to weigh a ton
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u/Buglypoo 13d ago
BTUs vs. GPMs
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u/Gold_Length_2245 12d ago
My first thought as well. Looks great but pissing on a roaring fire with 3 drones ain’t gonna do shit
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u/bigronnigans 13d ago
All well and good for a high rise facade fire. Still no good for compartment fires.
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u/FruitOrchards 13d ago
Of course, it's not going to take people's jobs but it'll definitely save lives and take some risk away from firefighters.
I only see this is a good thing all round
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u/an_angry_Moose Career FF 13d ago
I’d accept these for sure if it didn’t take resources away from firefighting: for example, if the city ADDED a specialized “engine” that was equipped with 2-4 drones and these guys were deployed to any fire that was 3 story or higher in ADDITION to all typical units.
Great. Always nice to have more tools in the tool belt, I just don’t see this replacing a normal compliment.
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u/BigTunaTim 13d ago
a specialized “engine” that was equipped with 2-4 drones
Ooh a new form of punishment. Overcooked dinner? You're on the drone box next shift.
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u/an_angry_Moose Career FF 13d ago
Lmao I love this. “You get to watch from a drone screen as we put the fire out”
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u/KrankenwagenKolya LT/EMT-P 12d ago
Beats a desk job when you're old or crippled, and at least you can still throw on your bunker pants with the rest of the guys
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u/an_angry_Moose Career FF 12d ago
Nice alternate duties assigned for the injured brothers. Much better than the alternative.
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u/FruitOrchards 13d ago
I don't think these are meant to replace anything but to simply be an additional tool.
I mean I see no reason why these couldn't be added to all trucks.
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u/an_angry_Moose Career FF 13d ago
I don't think these are meant to replace anything but to simply be an additional tool.
I fully agree.
I mean I see no reason why these couldn't be added to all trucks.
I suppose they could be, but it would require your municipality to grow your response by one unit per apartment/highrise fire, otherwise you’d end up with one of your expected units piloting drones instead of being utilized as manpower.
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u/FruitOrchards 13d ago
but it would require your municipality to grow your response by one unit per apartment/highrise fire, otherwise you’d end up with one of your expected units piloting drones instead of being utilized as manpower.
Sorry it may be because I'm tired but I'm not sure I fully grasp what you mean.
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u/an_angry_Moose Career FF 13d ago
If I’m first due and incident command, my engine guys are pump and confinement, then I have 3 more 4 person units to play with:
- 1 will be attack
- 1 will have to be RIT
- 1 for search or a second attack team.
If you decide to task one unit to “drones”, you will lose a manpower unit. Do you understand now? I’m not saying it can’t be done, I’m saying you need an additional team to be deployed or else you will be taking resources away from firefighting ops.
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u/neagrosk 12d ago
It'd probably be like an USAR truck, you simply wouldn't dispatch them unless you actually needed that vehicle.
Wouldn't make sense for smaller fires like 2-3 story residential units where only a few units show up but large high rise fires typically result in a proportionally larger response too, meaning more manpower to spare.
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u/SouthBendCitizen 13d ago
Either you add a new unit, with new personnel to man your new drone unit, or you take people/resources away from what is already established in order to run the drones
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u/FruitOrchards 13d ago
But wouldn't you just use this when you would have needed to up on the ladder with a hose anyway or something similar ? The drone could just in a box on top of the truck and you just open it, attach the hose and it's ready to go.
Not sure I understand the difference.
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u/SouthBendCitizen 13d ago
In the set up you describe, you are removing a conventional unit in order to run the drones which is what the guy was saying would be dumb, presumably because he doesn’t feel the drones should replace anything conventional, but possibly could be a good addition. But only if it’s an addition
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u/FruitOrchards 13d ago
I wouldn't necessarily say it's removing a conventional unit just altering how a specific task is done. It only takes one person to operate each drone, everything else on the truck can be the same.
It's the exact same thing in my eyes but I'm not a firefighter so I'm not gonna act like I know what I'm talking about
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u/tamman2000 11d ago
I would be willing to see it as an experimental snorkel truck, as long as they're us adequate truck coverage
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u/PerrinAyybara All Hazards Capt Obvious 12d ago
None of these examples did anything. They weren't making any progress. This is noise
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u/Background_Quit9511 12d ago
Wouldn't this also mean they start extinguishing extremely quickly compared to the normal procedures?
Seems like these drones would be quick to set-up and get to the elevation.
Edit: not a firefighter, just a normal dude
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u/UnhappyCaterpillar41 9d ago
Or, we could just sprinkler buildings. Makes a lot of sense for applying foam to tank farms etc (in addition to ladder trucks etc).
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u/Right-Edge9320 13d ago
Construction in China is all concrete. When you buy an apartment there you have to go in and install all the plumbing and electrical yourself. Sister lived in Hong Kong and their units carry concrete drills and piercing nozzles since the fire is usually contained within the unit of origin. Yeah the drones are just a pr stunt.
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u/neagrosk 12d ago
Fires spreading between units from outside cladding or other accessories is a known phenomenon though, see the grenfell fires in the UK. Having the capability to slow or stop that progress could be useful in those scenarios.
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u/Right-Edge9320 12d ago
Oh of course. My answer wasn’t intended to imply that other modes of fire spread wasn’t possible.
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u/bounced_czech 13d ago
Perfect application for CAFS, with its reduced friction loss.
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u/BPizzle301 Career FF 13d ago
Except for the pressures needed to pump that high up. My department’s old cafs pumpers could not pump greater than 150 psi with the cafs compressor engaged.
Also, we see water applied in the video but no fire going out. Just sayin.
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u/newenglandpolarbear radio go beep 12d ago
Modern CAFS , HP, and UHP systems can hit well over 500PSi these days.
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u/VealOfFortune 13d ago
No way those lines would be thick enough to get the force needed to climb 30+ stories under pressure.... and so let's say you make the hoses wider, then it becomes a WEIGHT issue.
Better hope there's no wind or any inclement weather, seeing as how the foam seems to be blowing right back at the drones in a few of the clips....
When you get into the heavy-lift drones which can actually handle a payload of a loaded hose and raising it up 30+ stories, you're talking high 6-/low 7-figures which would be comparable to an ACTUAL fire suppression system.....
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u/TheArcaneAuthor Truckie, Hazmat Nerd, AEMT 13d ago
All good points. Yes, the use cases in this tech are limited, but that doesn't mean we should throw the baby out with the bathwater.
And yes, I obviously think better fire suppression on the construction side is preferable. But we all know that builders and big corpos cheap out all the time, regulations or no. Shit, there's a tank farm in my dept that doesn't have the basic safety mitigations they were legally required to put in 30 years ago. We should push for better accountability and also have tools available for when that accountability fails.
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u/FruitOrchards 13d ago
I mean.. the video clearly shows that it works
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u/LegionP 13d ago
In most of the video clips it actually looks like the foam is struggling to reach the fire.
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u/JohnnyBoy11 10d ago
But they reach in the other clips. One clip, they show the drone completely missing and hitting the wrong floor, which probably means it's due to operator error or lack of skill.
Maybe they should use a spotting drone, well, they are probably recording with a spotting drone to help direct the spray. On the other hand, knowing that its china, they'll probably be able to field dozens of these, if not more, at a time.
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u/FruitOrchards 13d ago
I see it struggling in only 2 clips and it looks like it's because of either wind or low water pressure. But seeing how they perform in the other clips and the rate of water coming out in them I think it's a problem with the source of where they're getting their water rather than the drones.
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u/VealOfFortune 13d ago
That's not H20, that's foam.... and also, the other clips where they're "not struggling" is made to look like its way higher than it actually is.
Think about how heavy the charged hose is for Master Blaster lolll, no drone is lifting that much less flying and not getting blown out of the sky lol 😆 😜
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u/DerKaempfer_HD German Volunteer Firefighter 13d ago
I mean, if you have to result to costly drone inventions, you probably cheaped out massively on fireprevention and protection beforehand... by the looks of that building facade that might also be the case...
As for cooling that gas tank, sure but I feel like there's better options with more consistent pressure and no need to rely on battery life.
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u/iapologizeahedoftime 13d ago
It’s not using batteries
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u/DerKaempfer_HD German Volunteer Firefighter 13d ago
Do they have a power connection attached then?
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u/fadingremnants 12d ago
I'd guess there's either a tether supplying ground power, or it's a propane-electric model. Some hybrid power UAS can stay in the air for the better part of a day. Admittedly, that's not taking into account the weight it's carrying with the hose in this video, but high-endurance drones are used.
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u/iapologizeahedoftime 13d ago
Obviously, there is a hose for water all the way down to the ground so any decent drone of that type will also have a power cable attached to it
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u/INSPECTOR-99 13d ago
The “Water” HOSE, is likely fabricated with embedded Fine stranded (Copper) electrical fiber that supplies power. It’s called TETHERING.
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u/rinic MA Career/Truckie 12d ago
Sounds expensive.
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u/INSPECTOR-99 12d ago
Not particularly expensive. The general concept is already quite commonplace in computer technology. POE, “Power Over Ethernet” provides this supply concept over relatively long distances (300 Feet) via small diameter CAT5/6 Ethernet cables. This same general design I am sure is available attached to a flexible fire hose.
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u/DerKaempfer_HD German Volunteer Firefighter 13d ago
I only see what I assume to be a proper cable attached to the big drone at the end of the video clip and as far as I know Drones normally do not run with a steady power connection to begin with.
I'm no drone pilot however and a nearby department only has a drone for recon and emergency site oversight, so my knowledge of these is limited, I don't remember any of that department saying that these are capable of being supported by cable.
These drones could potentially be used way more effectively in dangerous/hazardous areas where human operators absolutely can not safely be eg. Chemical fire (likely what thebgas tank was) or narrow spaces.
I'll call in to question tactical advantage these have in fighting a highrise fire as you'd be significantly better off letting it burn itself out at higher floors instead of risking significant structural damage due to water amounts and possibly risking safety of people below said fire. If you worry about the people above the fire, that's why I made the comment about proper prevention and protection being in place via several fireproof staircases et cetera.
I don't know how the "bottom" of these drones looks like, as in, how much in equipment is needed to use them to their fullest, how many engines you need for one, amount of pilots and likewise maintain them at performance with enough batteries or replacement in case of (what I'd expect to happen) damage by falling objects or heat in these situations. Like hey, these clearly keep their distance, so I suspect they are of light but not fire retardant material.
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u/bobovicus 12d ago
Reminds me of the Grenfell Tower fire. all those people would be alive today if it weren’t for absurd cost cutting.
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u/clarencewhitaker 12d ago
I think the people in charge of the drones and the people in charge of the building codes and construction are probably not on the same budget.
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u/FruitOrchards 13d ago
Eh that's disingenuous to say the least.
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u/DerKaempfer_HD German Volunteer Firefighter 13d ago
Feel free to tell me how
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u/FruitOrchards 13d ago
I mean, if you have to result to costly drone inventions, you probably cheaped out massively on fireprevention and protection beforehand...
This makes no sense, it's like saying if you have a fire department at all then you've cheaped out massively on fire prevention and protection beforehand.
This is just another tool to help firefighters, also there's no reason to think this would actually be as expensive as you're seemingly implying.
This is great for hard to reach/awkward places and it helps keep firefighters out of harms way.
I'm really not sure how you saw this video and got the impression that this isn't beneficial. Also these aren't battery powered, it's powered by a tether.
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u/INSPECTOR-99 13d ago edited 13d ago
You create a regional “CO-OP”, Nationally sponsored that funds the 7 figure cost of a tethered high weight high performance pumper drone. The usage would be to support National disaster super fires ( Hi rise/Train/Forest/Shipyard/ETC.).
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u/PerrinAyybara All Hazards Capt Obvious 12d ago
Pissing in the wind there. Looks like they are trying to do a CAFS style and it's definitely not working. Can't aim it properly, not even enough GPMs to effect a change.
Much ado about nothing
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u/ThnkGdImNotAReditMod 13d ago
They may have firefighting drones, but we don't put over 1 million of an ethnic minority in reeducation, labour and concentration camps. Touche
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u/rawkguitar 12d ago
We’re working on it though
Edit:typos
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u/ThnkGdImNotAReditMod 12d ago
That's your guys' problem. Not sure if I'd prefer a government breakdown like down south or a societal breakdown like up here lol. Funnily enough China has a "perfect" government and society, so it's a lot easier to cover up atrocities.
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u/bobovicus 12d ago
Wonder what the max altitude is on those. Something like that on a day like 9/11 might have changed history
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u/FruitOrchards 12d ago
You'd probably have to have a drone the size and power of a CH-47 Chinook to to carry the weight of a hose full of water up that high.
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u/to_fire1 12d ago
Why don’t they just use better building materials and have better building codes?
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u/gonzo3625 12d ago
OR.... they could not wrap the buildings in flammable cladding lol Or put standpipes and sprinklers in them that actually function or are connected.
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u/Wildhorse_J 12d ago
It's more or less a flying nozzle, could have its uses but also adds a lot of extra hazards, I mean imagine if they collide or the hoses get tangled up, anyone working below would be in danger
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u/adambuck66 IA Volunteer FF 13d ago
and those MIGHT get to rural America in 30 years.
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u/SanJOahu84 12d ago
Rural America doesn't have tall buildings.
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u/adambuck66 IA Volunteer FF 11d ago
Ever seen a silo? It would be nice to get water on top.
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u/SanJOahu84 11d ago
I've seen a silo. Do those things catch fire a lot?
If you're going to have to rebuild it anyway I'm not sure I see the point in getting water onto it via drone.
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u/adambuck66 IA Volunteer FF 11d ago
They catch fire from time to time, they explode from time to time also. Trying to save some of the feed and ending the fire early would be nice. They can burn for day's or more depending on the size.
https://www.porttechnology.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Mike_Bradley-PTI66-4.pdf
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u/SanJOahu84 11d ago
Yeah I've heard of the explosions.
Just out of pure curiosity - have you been on a lot of advanced fire blowing out of the top silo fires?
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u/Hamburglar_Helper 13d ago