r/IndoEuropean • u/Miserable_Ad6175 • 23d ago
New Study from UC Santa Barbara : RigVeda and Hymn to Nikkal (Hurrian) reveals musical links across Bronze Age civilizations from India to the Mediterranean demonstrating astonishing parallels between the two pieces.
https://archaeologymag.com/wp-content/uploads/3000-year-old-hymn-2.jpg
“The Mitanni left us two gifts,” Baciu wrote. “One is the earliest evidence of Vedic culture outside India. The other is this hymn, which demonstrates how music was able to unite civilizations.”
The Rig Veda itself, even now recited by more than a billion Hindus at weddings and rituals, has maintained musicality with remarkable fidelity. Though accents have evolved over millennia, its cadences remain recognizable. This consistency shows how oral traditions preserved not only words but also musical structures with remarkable precision.
Concepts of a global musical culture challenge classic notions of isolated civilizations. They also resonate with present-day questions regarding the unity of culture in divided times. Just as Ugarit’s rhythms linked India, the Caucasus, and the Mediterranean over mountains and deserts, music today still has the power to transcend borders.
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u/SeaProblem7451 22d ago edited 22d ago
For anyone wanting to listen to Hyms to Nikkal (world’s oldest song), it is remarkable that such composition existed in 1400 BC https://x.com/HistContent/status/1941263832250233281/
Above video is performed by Peter Pringle
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u/GlobalImportance5295 22d ago
suggests that this wealth-loving “United States” of the Bronze Age did indeed unite multiple cultures
🤔
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u/Natarajavenkataraman 23d ago edited 22d ago
I pray that oral culture is recognised with esteem as it should be. Literacy is not only read and written.
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u/pikleboiy 23d ago
That's literally what literacy is. Like, I'm all for recognizing oral tradition as a legitimate form of cultural expression, but "literacy" is by definition the ability to read and write.
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u/GlobalImportance5295 22d ago
look up synesthesia. the act of reading and writing need not occur by eye or hand
RV.I.164:
yad gāyatre adhi gāyatram āhitaṃ traiṣṭubhād vā traiṣṭubhaṃ niratakṣata |
yad vā jagaj jagaty āhitam padaṃ ya it tad vidus te amṛtatvam ānaśuḥ ||
gāyatreṇa prati mimīte arkam arkeṇa sāma traiṣṭubhena vākam |
vākena vākaṃ dvipadā catuṣpadākṣareṇa mimate sapta vāṇīḥ ||
jagatā sindhuṃ divy astabhāyad rathaṃtare sūryam pary apaśyat |
gāyatrasya samidhas tisra āhus tato mahnā pra ririce mahitvā ||
23 How the gāyatrī track is based upon a gāyatrī hymn or how a triṣṭubh track was fashioned out of a triṣṭubh hymn, or how the jagat track is based on the jagati hymn —only those who know this have reached immortality.
24 By the gāyatrī track one measures the chant; by the chant the melody; by the triṣṭubh track (one measures) the recitation;
by the two-footed and the four-footed recitation the (full) recitation. By the syllable the seven voices assume their measure.
25 By the jagat [=jagatī] (stanza) he buttressed the river in heaven; in the rathantara (chant), he watched over the Sun.
They say that there are three kindling sticks [=three lines in a gāyatrī stanza] belonging to the gāyatrī (stanza). By its greatness it [=the gāyatrī stanza] has passed beyond those in greatness.
it is literacy in the form of a shared synesthestic experience ... see further,
RV.X.130:
1 The sacrifice, which is extended in every direction by its warp threads and stretched out by a hundred and one acts of the gods—
these fathers who have traveled here weave that. They sit at the warp, saying, “Weave forth, weave back.”
2 A man extends it [=the warp] and pulls it up (with the heddles); a man has extended it out upon the vault of heaven here.
Here are their pegs; they sat down upon their seat and made the sāman-chants the shuttles for weaving.
3 What was its model, its image? What its connection? What was its melted butter? What was its frame?
What was the meter? What was the Praüga-recitation, what the hymn?— when all the gods offered the god [=the Sacrifice].
4 The gāyatrī meter became the yokemate of Agni. Savitar has united with the uṣṇihā meter
and Soma with the anuṣṭubh meter, gaining greatness through the hymns. The br̥ hatī meter helped the speech of Br̥ haspati.
5 The virāj meter is the full glory of Mitra and Varuṇa, and the triṣṭubh meter is here Indra’s portion of the (sacrificial) day.
The jagatī meter entered the All-Gods. According to this did the seers, the sons of Manu, arrange (the ritual).
6 The seers, the sons of Manu, our fathers, arranged (the ritual) according to this, when the sacrifice was born in ancient times.
Seeing with my mind as my eye, I think of the ancient ones who offered this sacrifice.
7 The courses (of the ritual were) joined with the praise songs, joined with the meters. The heavenly Seven Seers were joined with the model (of the rite).
Looking along the path of the ancients, these insightful ones have taken hold of the reins like charioteers.
while the west is trying to define "literacy" based on what they can see and touch, the indians created a computer language as an extension of speech: https://doc.gold.ac.uk/aisb50/AISB50-S13/AISB50-S13-Kadvany-paper.pdf
Pāṇini’s fourth (?) century BCE Sanskrit grammar uses rewrite rules guided by an explicit and formal metalanguage. The metalanguage makes extensive use of auxiliary markers, in the form of Sanskrit phonemes, to control grammatical derivations. The method of auxiliary markers was rediscovered by Emil Post in the 1920s and shown capable of representing universal computation. The same potential computational strength of Pāṇini’s metalanguage follows as a consequence. Pāṇini’s formal achievement is philosophically distinctive as his grammar is constructed as an extension of spoken Sanskrit, in contrast to the implicit inscription of contemporary formalisms ... .
... From a modern perspective, while inscription has undoubted benefits in objectifying and memorializing natural and artificial languages, there is a received dogma that computation can be expressed in any media you like [19, 20], with software ultimately an abstraction independent of any hardware implementation. We therefore now have now a real historical example of just that media freedom, but in human speech, which along with the gestures of signing, is a primal expressive media, of natural language, at least for us modern humans [21]. Philosophically, Pāṇini’s example shows that the differences between natural and artificial computing languages are much smaller than often thought. Not because natural languages are, or are close to being, computing languages, but because the construction of computing languages is apparently just a continuation of natural language constructions by their own means.
also does RV.X.130 describe literal possession by ancient ancestors? is that why i have synesthesia?
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u/pikleboiy 21d ago
- How does synesthesia enable reading/writing without knowing how to read and write?
it is literacy in the form of a shared synesthestic experience ... see further,
How is that literacy?
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while the west is trying to define "literacy" based on what they can see and touch,
The term "literacy" is from a western language. That's like saying "while Indians are trying to define 'धर्म' based on Hindu texts."
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the indians created a computer language as an extension of speech: https://doc.gold.ac.uk/aisb50/AISB50-S13/AISB50-S13-Kadvany-paper.pdf
What does this have to do with the previous clause? Also, the paper you linked doesn't say what you claim it says. It's saying that the method Panini used to create his grammar is similar to the methods used by modern-ish people to create computational tools like the Turing machine. In other words, Panini could have used his methods to create something able to represent universal computation; the author isn't directly arguing that Sanskrit is a programming language.
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u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago
there is a received dogma that computation can be expressed in any media you like [19, 20], with software ultimately an abstraction independent of any hardware implementation. We therefore now have now a real historical example of just that media freedom, but in human speech, which along with the gestures of signing, is a primal expressive media, of natural language, at least for us modern humans [21]. Philosophically, Pāṇini’s example shows that the differences between natural and artificial computing languages are much smaller than often thought. Not because natural languages are, or are close to being, computing languages, but because the construction of computing languages is apparently just a continuation of natural language constructions by their own means.
it literally says the above.
How is that literacy?
if you can make out shapes and symbols for words, pass them, perceive them, comprehend them, and can confirm it is a shared experience, is it not the same as a written and read language. one uses physical medium, usually some kind of friction-based inscription. other uses mind
trying to define 'धर्म'
i dont think something as basic as the concept of "literacy" is similar to trying to translate dharma. it literally means being able to read and write
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u/pikleboiy 21d ago
it literally says the above.
You missed the crucial sentence: "Not because natural languages are, or are close to being, computing languages, but because the construction of computing languages is apparently just a continuation of natural language constructions by their own means."
if you can make out shapes and symbols for words, pass them, perceive them, comprehend them, and can confirm it is a shared experience, is it not the same as a written and read language. one uses physical medium, usually some kind of friction-based inscription. other uses mind
Except that synesthesia is not present in the majority of people. Also, most people generally do not share the exact same synesthesia experience, as goes with any other such neurodivergence. It is not a writing system that can consistently represent the language outside of someone's head.
i dont think something as basic as the concept of "literacy" is similar to trying to translate dharma. it literally means being able to read and write
You not only missed my point but seemingly reiterated it without noticing.
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u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago
not present in the majority of people.
brahmins are historically less than 1% of india. and it isn't confirmed if synesthesia is caused by nature or nurture yet
You not only missed my point but seemingly reiterated it without noticing.
that a non-synesthete would not be able to comprehend that a combined chromesthesia/grapheme-form synesthesia sans writing can amount to literacy?
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u/Wagagastiz 22d ago
Literacy is not only read and written.
It literally is just that
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u/Natarajavenkataraman 22d ago
I know what you’re saying but understand my perspective as well. What I’m trying to say is both are equally relevant to knowledge so the traditional categories of literacy don’t matter.
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u/GlobalImportance5295 22d ago
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u/Wagagastiz 22d ago
I'm aware what synesthesia is, what's the relevance?
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u/GlobalImportance5295 22d ago
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u/Wagagastiz 22d ago
Do you want to give any actual input instead of pretending you're saying something self evident?
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u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago
the act of reading and writing need not occur by eye or hand ... it is literacy in the form of a shared synesthestic experience
irony we are talking about literacy here
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u/Wagagastiz 21d ago
That's not a scientific argument or a challenge to the definition of literacy.
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u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago
That's not a scientific argument or a challenge to the definition of literacy.
not yet.
even Jamison & Brereton had to add "[=the present ones]" to make sure modern brahmins didn't get any ideas about who is controlling their actions and minds:
6 The seers, the sons of Manu, our fathers, arranged (the ritual) according to this, when the sacrifice was born in ancient times.
Seeing with my mind as my eye, I think of the ancient ones who offered this sacrifice.
7 The courses (of the ritual were) joined with the praise songs, joined with the meters. The heavenly Seven Seers were joined with the model (of the rite).
Looking along the path of the ancients, these insightful ones [=the present priests] have taken hold of the reins like charioteers.
i took the liberty
Looking along the path of the ancients, these insightful ones have taken hold of the reins like charioteers.
(((hindus)))
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u/Wagagastiz 21d ago
Okay
Get back to me when you have a scientific argument then
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u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago
Studying melodic lines has one main limitation. The music is known only in the case of the Hymn to Nikkal, but it is somewhat uncertain in the case of the the Rig Veda. However, “uncertain” does not mean “entirely unknown”. Ancient commentators of the Rig Veda said that the melodic lines in the Rig Veda were determined by word accents. The melody went up in pitch with the word accent and went down after it.
is this taking into account the nambudhiri style of recitation?
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u/MostZealousideal1729 23d ago
I am not sure if this is a fresh development influenced by Hurrians or is this a continuity from Sumerians to Hurrians for Sumerian goddess Ningal (i.e. Nikkal in Hurrian), with inlaid lapis lazuli eyes, given that Vyas 2020 paper had already pointed out similarities between Vedic Sanskrit and Sumerian musical terms, with Indus musicians possibly influencing it. Vyas proposes a Harappan “bull lyre” that traveled and evolved into the lyres known from Ur. This is a possibility if southern route is to be believed.