New preprint claims that the Rigveda and Mittani/Hurrian song (hymn to Nikkal) have the same cadence and are from the same musical foundation

[u/UnderstandingThin40]

What do you guys think?

Paper: https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202506.1669/v2

Not an expert but this seems like a stretch?

Also the author doesn’t seem to know that the Mitanni come from the steppe and not India, making him seem less credible.

The paper also in general doesn’t come off as professional.

[u/GlobalImportance5295]

Also the author doesn’t seem to know that the Mitanni come from the steppe and not India, making him seem less credible.

we actually have no evidence of this. asko parpola is pretty convinced the mitanni reached at least the BMAC (which would have had connections with the IVC) before reaching Anatolia. he is one of the leading indologists: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/346469122_Royal_Chariot_Burials_of_Sanauli_near_Delhi_and_Archaeological_Correlates_of_Prehistoric_Indo-Iranian_Languages

i don't agree with him on everything but the direct origin of the Mitanni migration is not as certain as you are thinking.

Aryans also have deeper penetration into Anatolia than just Mitanni land: https://imgur.com/a/aryan-i-uwa-aram-kosyan-iran-caucasus-vol-10-no-1-2006-pp-1-6-6-pages-qIUKIhg

additionally, the fact that the extinct "Syrian elephant" is literally just the Indian elephant and only shows up in Syria during the bronze age (starting ~1800BC) is curious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_elephant

It's not the first time these theories have been alluded to: https://imgur.com/a/mittanians-peacock-b-brentjes-1981-mfllFhv

(B. BRENTJES 1981: The Mittanians and the Peacock. Brentjes, Burchard, in "Ethnic Problems of the History of Central Asia in the Early Period")

[u/00022143 → u/GlobalImportance5295]

The Syrian elephant, if not indegenious to Syria, could've come from trade with the  Meluhha/Harrappans.

[u/UnderstandingThin40 → u/GlobalImportance5295]

We have linguistic and even dna evidence of it though (lady of the well sample). I’m sure they went through bmac and mixed with them but they originated in the steppe.

We’ve all heard the peacock seal and Indian / Syrian, the evidence if you can even call that is weak. Are you saying the Mitanni came from India ? There is 0 evidence of that.

[u/GlobalImportance5295 → u/UnderstandingThin40]

There is 0 evidence of that.

there is also 0 evidence they came directly from the steppe

did the author say they actually came from india? i'm not even seeing what you are thinking the author claimed. i was merely assuming the author implied the Mitanni would have first migrated through the BMAC and either into India or had cultural ties with India before they migrated to Mitanni land. their direct origin pre-Syria / pre-Anatolia is literally uncertain

[u/UnderstandingThin40 → u/GlobalImportance5295]

But we do have evidence for them coming from the steppe. We have dna samples from Syria exactly at the time of Mitanni with steppe Dna. We also have linguistic evidence too. 

They originated in the steppe and again I’m sure they went through bmac and were heavily influence by them, but there is no evidence they came from India.

I mean it’s not concrete where they are from but the evidence is stronger for one location than another. As I said we have linguistic and dna evidence. 

[u/GlobalImportance5295 → u/UnderstandingThin40]

you're strawmanning. no one has questioned dna or lingustics. this is called the kulturkugel model: https://www.academia.edu/108312694/Reconsidering_Kulturkugel_Genetic_Imprint_of_Early_Indo_Aryans_in_Central_West_and_South_Asia

the author does not "reconsider" kulturkugel, merely describes the process. the title is strange

i just gave you many articles stating its uncertain and you sit there saying "no evidence" while strawmanning. which form of debate are you employing

[u/UnderstandingThin40 → u/GlobalImportance5295]

I’m not strawmanning, you said we have no evidence. We do have genetic and linguistic evidence. I don’t think you know what strawman means in this case.

[u/GlobalImportance5295 → u/UnderstandingThin40]

the kulturkugel model of indo-aryan migrations is well attested in academia and does not conflict with genetic or linguistic models. you are claiming it does conflict with no actual substantial argument. the "proof" you give is a strawman because it's moot

[u/UnderstandingThin40 → u/GlobalImportance5295]

The kulturkugel model says the Mitanni come from the steppe originally and then mixed with bmac. I don’t see how that conflicts with even what I said. 

You literally said there is no proof Mitanni homeland is the steppe. But there is proof…

[u/GlobalImportance5295 → u/UnderstandingThin40]

homeland

where did i say homeland? plus what does "homeland" even mean here? you are the one that made the claim that the author implies Mitanni migrated from India. that isn't even apparent to me in the article. it is still technically uncertain where they directly traveled from before ending up in Syria/Anatolia. i'm not going to waste more time on calling you out for flip flopping so we can end here. practice debating better

[u/UnderstandingThin40 → u/GlobalImportance5295]

You’re not understanding my basic point or deliberately ignoring it lol. You said there is no evidence the Mitanni came from the steppe. There IS evidence. Even if they went through bmac, they still originated in the steppe. I don’t even get what you’re trying to argue tbh.

Did you not say there is no evidence that Mitanni came from the steppe? 

[u/Consistent_Jump9044 → u/UnderstandingThin40]

You have a boner for BMAC. They didn't even control Merv, let alone the Silk Road. What language did the BMAC speak? Sanskrit? If so, they aren't from the Steppes.

[u/yogeshjanghu → u/UnderstandingThin40]

Mitanni invokes proper rig Vedic pantheon,not indo-Iranian proper indo-Aryan it could only come from Vedic age India.

[u/UnderstandingThin40 → u/yogeshjanghu]

No, it invokes indo aryan gods, that were the predecessors/ same as many rig vedic gods.

[u/yogeshjanghu → u/UnderstandingThin40]

it invokes Vedic deities which are indigenous to India.

[u/UnderstandingThin40 → u/yogeshjanghu]

Which ones ?

[u/yogeshjanghu → u/UnderstandingThin40]

Look it up yourself bro.

[u/UnderstandingThin40 → u/yogeshjanghu]

lol classic Reddit response. What’s your source ?

[u/Willing-One8981 → u/yogeshjanghu]

Posters on this sub write as if there's a whole Mitanni corpus written in Sanskrit, whereas it's just a handful of words across a handful of documents.

Mitra, Varuṇa, Indra and the Nasatyas are listed as witnesses only in the Šattiwaza treaty, written in the 14th C BCE.

And note that other Mitanni treaties are witnessed by Hurrian and Mesopotamian gods, but do not include the names of IA gods. Even in the Šattiwaza treaty the IA gods are someway down the list, following the names of the Hurrian gods.

Varuṇa, Indra and the Nasatyas are clearly IE gods. Mitra, Varuna and Nasatyas have clear IE etymologies. The etymology of Indra is less certain but he's obviously derived from the PIE storm god.

So no, they are not Indigenous to India.

[u/Consistent_Jump9044 → u/UnderstandingThin40]

BMAC? Never read that. Hurrians are indigenous to Turkey; Hittites are idigenous to Eurasia.

[u/Practical_Rock6138]

Article isn't about ancient migration, it's about sharing of a musical trope across Bronze age civilizations. It's written more lightheaded than your usual paper, but I wouldn't call it unprofessional.

[u/UnderstandingThin40 → u/Practical_Rock6138]

The article says Mitanni spoke a vedic language which is incorrect 

[u/Consistent_Jump9044 → u/UnderstandingThin40]

Mittani had an Indo-European superstrate over colloquial Hurrian. It was a linguisgic palimpsest. Like other trade languages.

[u/Consistent_Jump9044 → u/Consistent_Jump9044]

Like Akkadian Sumerian....a palimpsest.

[u/indoaryan69 → u/UnderstandingThin40]

Does he know?

[u/00022143]

btw there was an earlier post about this https://www.reddit.com/r/IndoEuropean/comments/1msp6hw/new_study_from_uc_santa_barbara_rigveda_and_hymn/

[u/PuzzleheadedMetal141 → u/[deleted]]

Except they have elephant and peacock motifs (only found in India at this time) in their pottery which strongly suggests that they had a strong cultural influence from NW India. So they had to have been in India before the split…

[u/yogeshjanghu]

Wtf ! even if we go my AMT Mitanni is from India not directly from steppe.

[u/UnderstandingThin40 → u/yogeshjanghu]

No, Aryan migration theory does not say Mitanni come From India 

[u/yogeshjanghu → u/UnderstandingThin40]

Vedic indo-Aryan pantheon is from India not directly from steppe.

[u/UnderstandingThin40 → u/yogeshjanghu]

The indo aryan pantheon is from the steppe, one branch went into India and became the Vedic language. Another went to Syria and became the Mitanni branch. Both branches will have overlapping words

[u/PuzzleheadedMetal141 → u/UnderstandingThin40]

1. There is zero linguistic evidence that the Vedic pantheon originated in the steppe. On the other hand there are multiple indo aryan river names cited in the hymns of the Rig Veda. Hydronyms are the last names to change in a language which points to an indigenous naming of rivers.

2. Archaeologically the Mittani have elephant and peacock motifs (only found in India at this time) in their pottery which strongly suggests that they had a strong cultural influence from NW India. You can’t paint pots with elephants if you’ve never seen them before.

3. Linguistically look into the chronological gap in the rigveda and what you find is that the Mittani retain the “Old” Rigvedic form vs the “New” Rig Veda - suggesting that they were in India during the time period of the formation of the Rig Veda.

[u/UnderstandingThin40 → u/PuzzleheadedMetal141]

1. Your point 1 is laughably wrong, if you genuinely believe that then you don’t understand the basic of linguistics lol.

2. Thinking having a peacock seal and elephant motifs means people from India migrated their and conquered the land is not even close meaning they had strong cultural influence lol. I guess that means England was ruled by people from the Middle East because they had lion motifs in the 12th century.

3. Incorrect again, the Mitanni and rigvedic words spawn from the same root. That means ofc the Mitanni words will be closer to old rigvedic words compared to newer ones. It’s like you don’t understand the basics of the linguistics. 

[u/-Mystic-Echoes- → u/UnderstandingThin40]

If evidence of peacocks (an animal unique to India) and literal imported Indian elephants in Mitanni doesn't mean influence from India, then presence of horses in 2nd millennium BCE India shouldn't mean influence from the steppe.

[u/UnderstandingThin40 → u/-Mystic-Echoes-]

lol it’s evidence they knew about them, not that they imported them or were the ruling class. Do you think Englands aristocracy was ruled by North Africans because they had Lion sigils  ? Because that’s the logic you’re using lol.

Your second sentence is equally stupid, because we have evidence of domesticated horse bones in India and the Rigveda literally speaks about horses. Thinking that amount of evidence is comparable to a peacock and elephant seal just demonstrates you have no idea what you’re talking about ahha 

[u/-Mystic-Echoes- → u/UnderstandingThin40]

This can't be compared to England at all. England already had a cultural consciousness of Lions through Bible stories. Lions were already used throughout Europe as a symbol in the medieval period. The aristocracy already were familiar with lions. In comparison the middle East never had any knowledge of peacocks. Peacock motifs appear at the EXACT same time that Indo-Aryan loanwords and influence starts to appear. This is literally called cultural transfer. You have to be a fool to ignore this evidence.

And yes, we already have evidence of domesticated horse bones in IVC sites like Surkotada. Nothing to do with the steppe.

[u/UnderstandingThin40 → u/-Mystic-Echoes-]

Wrong , bones at surkotada have not been confirmed to be domesticated horses

[u/Accurate_Ad3541 → u/UnderstandingThin40]

Dont teach neo nazis ab indo european studies , this is what happens such stupidity the vedic pantheon developed in india the indo iranian pantheon was probably practiced in the sintashta but even then the north mesopotamia theory is rising.

[u/Accurate_Ad3541 → u/Accurate_Ad3541]

BP group , Aknashnan , maykop and intermediate sources all have north meso dna not the mention the haplogroups that originated in the NORTHERN fertile creasent being seen in clv people

[u/Free_Mail3745 → u/UnderstandingThin40]

Mittani word is not closer to old rigvedic but post vedic word , Tusharatha is name not found in any rigvedic sankrit or avestan ,but in post vedic The title ratha term in name actually consider middle Vedic or post vedic where many aristocrat of indo Aryans used this term until the classical sankrit era , Their is no single person king in whole Rigveda with any title with ratha

[u/yogeshjanghu → u/UnderstandingThin40]

Not a single shred of evidence to say that indo-Aryan pantheon is from steppe.

[u/UnderstandingThin40 → u/yogeshjanghu]

It’s amazing how people with the least amount of knowledge about a topic are the most confident in their wrong opinions lol

[u/Paras619 → u/UnderstandingThin40]

Reading your comments, that says about you. Aryan Migration been debunked along time ago.

[u/UnderstandingThin40 → u/Paras619]

According to who? WhatsApp university? Lol