r/IndoEuropean • u/UnderstandingThin40 • 21d ago

Indo-European migrations New preprint claims that the Rigveda and Mittani/Hurrian song (hymn to Nikkal) have the same cadence and are from the same musical foundation

What do you guys think?

Paper: https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202506.1669/v2

Not an expert but this seems like a stretch?

Also the author doesn’t seem to know that the Mitanni come from the steppe and not India, making him seem less credible.

The paper also in general doesn’t come off as professional.

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u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

Also the author doesn’t seem to know that the Mitanni come from the steppe and not India, making him seem less credible.

we actually have no evidence of this. asko parpola is pretty convinced the mitanni reached at least the BMAC (which would have had connections with the IVC) before reaching Anatolia. he is one of the leading indologists: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/346469122_Royal_Chariot_Burials_of_Sanauli_near_Delhi_and_Archaeological_Correlates_of_Prehistoric_Indo-Iranian_Languages

i don't agree with him on everything but the direct origin of the Mitanni migration is not as certain as you are thinking.

Aryans also have deeper penetration into Anatolia than just Mitanni land: https://imgur.com/a/aryan-i-uwa-aram-kosyan-iran-caucasus-vol-10-no-1-2006-pp-1-6-6-pages-qIUKIhg

additionally, the fact that the extinct "Syrian elephant" is literally just the Indian elephant and only shows up in Syria during the bronze age (starting ~1800BC) is curious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_elephant

It's not the first time these theories have been alluded to: https://imgur.com/a/mittanians-peacock-b-brentjes-1981-mfllFhv

(B. BRENTJES 1981: The Mittanians and the Peacock. Brentjes, Burchard, in "Ethnic Problems of the History of Central Asia in the Early Period")

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u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago

We have linguistic and even dna evidence of it though (lady of the well sample). I’m sure they went through bmac and mixed with them but they originated in the steppe.

We’ve all heard the peacock seal and Indian / Syrian, the evidence if you can even call that is weak. Are you saying the Mitanni came from India ? There is 0 evidence of that.

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u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

There is 0 evidence of that.

there is also 0 evidence they came directly from the steppe

did the author say they actually came from india? i'm not even seeing what you are thinking the author claimed. i was merely assuming the author implied the Mitanni would have first migrated through the BMAC and either into India or had cultural ties with India before they migrated to Mitanni land. their direct origin pre-Syria / pre-Anatolia is literally uncertain

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u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago

But we do have evidence for them coming from the steppe. We have dna samples from Syria exactly at the time of Mitanni with steppe Dna. We also have linguistic evidence too. 

They originated in the steppe and again I’m sure they went through bmac and were heavily influence by them, but there is no evidence they came from India.

I mean it’s not concrete where they are from but the evidence is stronger for one location than another. As I said we have linguistic and dna evidence. 

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u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

you're strawmanning. no one has questioned dna or lingustics. this is called the kulturkugel model: https://www.academia.edu/108312694/Reconsidering_Kulturkugel_Genetic_Imprint_of_Early_Indo_Aryans_in_Central_West_and_South_Asia

the author does not "reconsider" kulturkugel, merely describes the process. the title is strange

i just gave you many articles stating its uncertain and you sit there saying "no evidence" while strawmanning. which form of debate are you employing

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u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago

I’m not strawmanning, you said we have no evidence. We do have genetic and linguistic evidence. I don’t think you know what strawman means in this case.

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u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

the kulturkugel model of indo-aryan migrations is well attested in academia and does not conflict with genetic or linguistic models. you are claiming it does conflict with no actual substantial argument. the "proof" you give is a strawman because it's moot

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u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago

The kulturkugel model says the Mitanni come from the steppe originally and then mixed with bmac. I don’t see how that conflicts with even what I said. 

You literally said there is no proof Mitanni homeland is the steppe. But there is proof…

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u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

homeland

where did i say homeland? plus what does "homeland" even mean here? you are the one that made the claim that the author implies Mitanni migrated from India. that isn't even apparent to me in the article. it is still technically uncertain where they directly traveled from before ending up in Syria/Anatolia. i'm not going to waste more time on calling you out for flip flopping so we can end here. practice debating better

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u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago

You’re not understanding my basic point or deliberately ignoring it lol. You said there is no evidence the Mitanni came from the steppe. There IS evidence. Even if they went through bmac, they still originated in the steppe. I don’t even get what you’re trying to argue tbh.

Did you not say there is no evidence that Mitanni came from the steppe? 

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u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

no evidence that Mitanni came from the steppe?

i'm not aware of DNA evidence regarding Mitanni in Syria/Anatolia, but i generally trust the "kurgan hypothesis". the "southern arc" is popular these days

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u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago

You didn’t answer my question: did you say that there is no evidence that the Mitanni came from the steppe? 

And yes there is indeed linguistic and dna evidence. There is even  recent archeological evidence tying the andronovo to Vedic rituals. 

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u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

in your OP you say

come from the steppe and not India, making him seem less credible.

when you say "come from" i took it as "directly migrated from". there is no evidence of it. there is no reason to believe the author is not credible

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u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago

So you misinterpreted what I said then -__-

The author states “ The archaeological evidence for the Vedic language that Mitanni has left is somewhat unconventional. It is not a full text written in Vedic. Instead, only individual words have remained, and these Vedic or Old Indic words fall in a narrow list of three categories: 1.) terms related to horsemanship, 2.) Vedic names of gods, and 3.) other Vedic names (Novák, 2007; Spinney, 2025; Gernot, 1989).”

They have a profound misconception about the Mitanni. The Mitanni don’t have vedic words or rigvedic words, they have indo aryan words. Vedic and Mitanni words have the same root, they aren’t the same language. The authors consistent mistakes about how the Mitanni spoke a vedic language seems to imply they think the Mitanni came from India because those who speak Vedic languages are by definition from India or the NW of the subcontinent. The predecessor to the vedic language in the steppe is indo aryan.

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u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

The predecessor to the vedic language in the steppe is indo aryan

irrespective of location, i think you mean Proto-Aryan?

academics consider it plausible that the split in Indo-Iranian that became Proto-Iranian and and Proto-Aryan happened in the BMAC after Indo-Iranians left the steppe. you seem to be convinced otherwise. it's not so. i think that's the source of your misunderstanding. the soma ritual tied to praise poetry would have already been formalized before the split. the mitanni migration would have happened after that split

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u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago

No I would agree they went to bmac first and mingled with them and then migrated out to India and Syria 

Yes I think proto ia is the official term, but no one calls it vedic( the andronovo or steppe people in general).Vedic means it’s from the area the Rigveda talks about, so like Punjab to south Afghanistan 

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u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

andronovo

also they are not the mitanni. you state we have DNA evidence of mitanni in anatolia / syria. perhaps we do. not doubting i just have not researched

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u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago

Well it’s central Asian steppe dna from 2nd millennia bce.

It’s called the well lady sample (alakul).

Where are you getting that the Mitanni did not have andronovo dna ?

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u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

Mitanni did not have andronovo dna ?

i didn't state this, i stated they aren't culturally the same people. you are an awful debater

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u/-Mystic-Echoes- 21d ago

It’s called the well lady sample (alakul).

It's Alalakh, not Alakul.

And the sample had no steppe ancestry. https://a-genetics.blogspot.com/2022/09/alalakh-well-lady.html?m=1

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