r/IndoEuropean • u/UnderstandingThin40 • 21d ago

Indo-European migrations New preprint claims that the Rigveda and Mittani/Hurrian song (hymn to Nikkal) have the same cadence and are from the same musical foundation

What do you guys think?

Paper: https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202506.1669/v2

Not an expert but this seems like a stretch?

Also the author doesn’t seem to know that the Mitanni come from the steppe and not India, making him seem less credible.

The paper also in general doesn’t come off as professional.

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u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

the kulturkugel model of indo-aryan migrations is well attested in academia and does not conflict with genetic or linguistic models. you are claiming it does conflict with no actual substantial argument. the "proof" you give is a strawman because it's moot

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u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago

The kulturkugel model says the Mitanni come from the steppe originally and then mixed with bmac. I don’t see how that conflicts with even what I said. 

You literally said there is no proof Mitanni homeland is the steppe. But there is proof…

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u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

homeland

where did i say homeland? plus what does "homeland" even mean here? you are the one that made the claim that the author implies Mitanni migrated from India. that isn't even apparent to me in the article. it is still technically uncertain where they directly traveled from before ending up in Syria/Anatolia. i'm not going to waste more time on calling you out for flip flopping so we can end here. practice debating better

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u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago

You’re not understanding my basic point or deliberately ignoring it lol. You said there is no evidence the Mitanni came from the steppe. There IS evidence. Even if they went through bmac, they still originated in the steppe. I don’t even get what you’re trying to argue tbh.

Did you not say there is no evidence that Mitanni came from the steppe? 

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u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

no evidence that Mitanni came from the steppe?

i'm not aware of DNA evidence regarding Mitanni in Syria/Anatolia, but i generally trust the "kurgan hypothesis". the "southern arc" is popular these days

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u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago

You didn’t answer my question: did you say that there is no evidence that the Mitanni came from the steppe? 

And yes there is indeed linguistic and dna evidence. There is even  recent archeological evidence tying the andronovo to Vedic rituals. 

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u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

in your OP you say

come from the steppe and not India, making him seem less credible.

when you say "come from" i took it as "directly migrated from". there is no evidence of it. there is no reason to believe the author is not credible

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u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago

So you misinterpreted what I said then -__-

The author states “ The archaeological evidence for the Vedic language that Mitanni has left is somewhat unconventional. It is not a full text written in Vedic. Instead, only individual words have remained, and these Vedic or Old Indic words fall in a narrow list of three categories: 1.) terms related to horsemanship, 2.) Vedic names of gods, and 3.) other Vedic names (Novák, 2007; Spinney, 2025; Gernot, 1989).”

They have a profound misconception about the Mitanni. The Mitanni don’t have vedic words or rigvedic words, they have indo aryan words. Vedic and Mitanni words have the same root, they aren’t the same language. The authors consistent mistakes about how the Mitanni spoke a vedic language seems to imply they think the Mitanni came from India because those who speak Vedic languages are by definition from India or the NW of the subcontinent. The predecessor to the vedic language in the steppe is indo aryan.

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u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

The predecessor to the vedic language in the steppe is indo aryan

irrespective of location, i think you mean Proto-Aryan?

academics consider it plausible that the split in Indo-Iranian that became Proto-Iranian and and Proto-Aryan happened in the BMAC after Indo-Iranians left the steppe. you seem to be convinced otherwise. it's not so. i think that's the source of your misunderstanding. the soma ritual tied to praise poetry would have already been formalized before the split. the mitanni migration would have happened after that split

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u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago

No I would agree they went to bmac first and mingled with them and then migrated out to India and Syria 

Yes I think proto ia is the official term, but no one calls it vedic( the andronovo or steppe people in general).Vedic means it’s from the area the Rigveda talks about, so like Punjab to south Afghanistan 

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u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

the only academic that tends to nitpick as hard as you do is Michael Witzel. the Sanauli findings have probably given him an existential crisis even though they are solid wheel carts likely drawn by bulls. there are clear parallels to war chariots and BMAC artwork. additionally we find IVC style "priest kings" in BMAC art and Helmand culture art.

i will just assume you are a Witzel fan or something

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u/UnderstandingThin40 20d ago

No, literally all academics call it proto indo aryan and don’t call it vedic. It’s not just Witzel. Reich, Anthony, Kassian etc and all the experts in the field would say calling the Mitanni having vedic words is incorrect. The Mitanni come from a proto indo aryan branch not a Vedic branch. The author of the paper is wrong and that’s probably why it won’t pass peer review.

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u/GlobalImportance5295 20d ago

The Mitanni come from a proto indo aryan branch not a Vedic branch.

not true. academics call Mitanni language Old Indic in some cases

all the experts in the field would say calling the Mitanni having vedic words

again, this is not true. academics literally call the vedic gods in the mitanni treaty "vedic gods". they are quite literally vedic gods. i understand you want to divorce india out of the equation like witzel but you will have to relax a little bit

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u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

the andronovo or steppe people in general

again, this is not the mitanni.

no one calls it vedic

the reason they call it vedic is because it aligns with the redaction of the core rigvedic books i.e. ~1500bc. same gods, same language regarding charioteering which is associated with aryan migrations. the language of the rigveda samhita particularly is even more archaic than other sanskrit. descriptions of the Saraswati river in the Rigveda Samhita align with Afghanistani highlands. you are nitpicking over things that are generally uncertain. and there is evidence of BMAC + Late-Harappan influence during the timeline that aligns with the Indo-Iranian split. i encourage you to actually read what im sending you: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/346469122_Royal_Chariot_Burials_of_Sanauli_near_Delhi_and_Archaeological_Correlates_of_Prehistoric_Indo-Iranian_Languages

there is no reason for you to be nitpicking this hard. academics do not nitpick as hard as you are doing. there is no reason to believe the author is not credible

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u/UnderstandingThin40 20d ago edited 20d ago

No serious scholar calls the steppe language the Vedic language, it’s not nitpicking, they’re simply wrong. Proto Indo Aryan worlds for chariot predate vedic words. Those are the words Mitanni use.

I’m not saying the Mitanni are andronovo. I’m saying they have andronovo dna and the language comes from the steppe as does their migration.

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u/GlobalImportance5295 20d ago

calls the steppe language the Vedic language

again, you seem to be flip flopping over whether or not you believe the split of Indo-Iranian to Iranian and Aryan happened in the BMAC or not. the BMAC is not the steppe

steppe as does their migration.

again, we don't know their direct source. i am not ready to go in another circle of flip flopping but if we must ...

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u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

south Afghanistan

BMAC overlap

also andronovo potsherds have been found in Shortugai an IVC site in Afghanistan

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u/UnderstandingThin40 20d ago

This is irrelevant to my point 

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u/GlobalImportance5295 20d ago

how is it irrelevant when you are trying to counter that the mitanni may have been immersed in both BMAC and indian culture before migrating to Syria / Anatolia by offering absolutely no evidence. i have given you a stack of evidence against your theory that it is cut-and-dry. it is not as cut-and-dry as you assume

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u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

andronovo

also they are not the mitanni. you state we have DNA evidence of mitanni in anatolia / syria. perhaps we do. not doubting i just have not researched

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u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago

Well it’s central Asian steppe dna from 2nd millennia bce.

It’s called the well lady sample (alakul).

Where are you getting that the Mitanni did not have andronovo dna ?

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u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

Mitanni did not have andronovo dna ?

i didn't state this, i stated they aren't culturally the same people. you are an awful debater

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u/-Mystic-Echoes- 20d ago

It’s called the well lady sample (alakul).

It's Alalakh, not Alakul.

And the sample had no steppe ancestry. https://a-genetics.blogspot.com/2022/09/alalakh-well-lady.html?m=1