r/IndoEuropean • u/UnderstandingThin40 • 21d ago

Indo-European migrations New preprint claims that the Rigveda and Mittani/Hurrian song (hymn to Nikkal) have the same cadence and are from the same musical foundation

What do you guys think?

Paper: https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202506.1669/v2

Not an expert but this seems like a stretch?

Also the author doesn’t seem to know that the Mitanni come from the steppe and not India, making him seem less credible.

The paper also in general doesn’t come off as professional.

44 Upvotes

94% Upvoted

129 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

3

u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago

So you misinterpreted what I said then -__-

The author states “ The archaeological evidence for the Vedic language that Mitanni has left is somewhat unconventional. It is not a full text written in Vedic. Instead, only individual words have remained, and these Vedic or Old Indic words fall in a narrow list of three categories: 1.) terms related to horsemanship, 2.) Vedic names of gods, and 3.) other Vedic names (Novák, 2007; Spinney, 2025; Gernot, 1989).”

They have a profound misconception about the Mitanni. The Mitanni don’t have vedic words or rigvedic words, they have indo aryan words. Vedic and Mitanni words have the same root, they aren’t the same language. The authors consistent mistakes about how the Mitanni spoke a vedic language seems to imply they think the Mitanni came from India because those who speak Vedic languages are by definition from India or the NW of the subcontinent. The predecessor to the vedic language in the steppe is indo aryan.

3

u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

The predecessor to the vedic language in the steppe is indo aryan

irrespective of location, i think you mean Proto-Aryan?

academics consider it plausible that the split in Indo-Iranian that became Proto-Iranian and and Proto-Aryan happened in the BMAC after Indo-Iranians left the steppe. you seem to be convinced otherwise. it's not so. i think that's the source of your misunderstanding. the soma ritual tied to praise poetry would have already been formalized before the split. the mitanni migration would have happened after that split

1

u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago

No I would agree they went to bmac first and mingled with them and then migrated out to India and Syria 

Yes I think proto ia is the official term, but no one calls it vedic( the andronovo or steppe people in general).Vedic means it’s from the area the Rigveda talks about, so like Punjab to south Afghanistan 

3

u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

the only academic that tends to nitpick as hard as you do is Michael Witzel. the Sanauli findings have probably given him an existential crisis even though they are solid wheel carts likely drawn by bulls. there are clear parallels to war chariots and BMAC artwork. additionally we find IVC style "priest kings" in BMAC art and Helmand culture art.

i will just assume you are a Witzel fan or something

1

u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago

No, literally all academics call it proto indo aryan and don’t call it vedic. It’s not just Witzel. Reich, Anthony, Kassian etc and all the experts in the field would say calling the Mitanni having vedic words is incorrect. The Mitanni come from a proto indo aryan branch not a Vedic branch. The author of the paper is wrong and that’s probably why it won’t pass peer review.

2

u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

The Mitanni come from a proto indo aryan branch not a Vedic branch.

not true. academics call Mitanni language Old Indic in some cases

all the experts in the field would say calling the Mitanni having vedic words

again, this is not true. academics literally call the vedic gods in the mitanni treaty "vedic gods". they are quite literally vedic gods. i understand you want to divorce india out of the equation like witzel but you will have to relax a little bit

1

u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago

Please cite any scholar saying the Mitanni spoke vedic words 

1

u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

they spoke Hurrian , their own dialect called "Mitanni".

spoke vedic words

again a strawman, your statement is

the author doesn’t seem to know that the Mitanni come from the steppe and not India, making him seem less credible.

here is primary source, no scholar. the image is a bit crazy but read it through: https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F6iepx1jgjbtb1.png

1

u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago

I don’t think you know what a primary source is….or what a peer reviewed source is. I can’t believe you think this is a good argument haha.

You keep saying straw man without understanding what a straw man is. I’m directly addressing the topic at hand which is that the author calls the Mitanni speaking Vedic words, which is incorrect. Seems like if you don’t have anything meaningful to say you just accuse the other of a straw man lol, peak Reddit logic

2

u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

the andronovo or steppe people in general

again, this is not the mitanni.

no one calls it vedic

the reason they call it vedic is because it aligns with the redaction of the core rigvedic books i.e. ~1500bc. same gods, same language regarding charioteering which is associated with aryan migrations. the language of the rigveda samhita particularly is even more archaic than other sanskrit. descriptions of the Saraswati river in the Rigveda Samhita align with Afghanistani highlands. you are nitpicking over things that are generally uncertain. and there is evidence of BMAC + Late-Harappan influence during the timeline that aligns with the Indo-Iranian split. i encourage you to actually read what im sending you: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/346469122_Royal_Chariot_Burials_of_Sanauli_near_Delhi_and_Archaeological_Correlates_of_Prehistoric_Indo-Iranian_Languages

there is no reason for you to be nitpicking this hard. academics do not nitpick as hard as you are doing. there is no reason to believe the author is not credible

0

u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago edited 21d ago

No serious scholar calls the steppe language the Vedic language, it’s not nitpicking, they’re simply wrong. Proto Indo Aryan worlds for chariot predate vedic words. Those are the words Mitanni use.

I’m not saying the Mitanni are andronovo. I’m saying they have andronovo dna and the language comes from the steppe as does their migration.

2

u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

calls the steppe language the Vedic language

again, you seem to be flip flopping over whether or not you believe the split of Indo-Iranian to Iranian and Aryan happened in the BMAC or not. the BMAC is not the steppe

steppe as does their migration.

again, we don't know their direct source. i am not ready to go in another circle of flip flopping but if we must ...

1

u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago

It happened in both the steppe and bmac area, it’s not binary. We don’t know exactly where the split happened.

As I said the evidence is much stronger that the Mitanni came from the steppe. There is dna and linguistic evidence. 

2

u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

There is dna and linguistic evidence.

again, the kulturkugel model does not reject this, but does not confirm that they directly "came from the steppe". circles and circles and circles. lets drop it.

1

u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago

Does the kulturkugel model say that the steppe people mingled in the Indian subcontinent and then went west to Syria / Anatolia ? So why would the kulturkugel model support Indian influence in the Mitanni ?Because I don’t think it does.

 I think it says the andronovo / sintashta mingled heavily with bmac and then one group went south into South Asia and another group went west into Syria / Anatolia. I don’t understand where you’re getting the Indian connection other than your peacock deal and Indian elephant argument.

2

u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

say that the steppe people mingled in the Indian subcontinent and then went west to Syria / Anatolia ?

i've only said it's uncertain and not as cut and dry as you are stating. you are strawmanning. circles and circles and circles. im starting to think youre an NPC

→ More replies (0)

1

u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

south Afghanistan

BMAC overlap

also andronovo potsherds have been found in Shortugai an IVC site in Afghanistan

1

u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago

This is irrelevant to my point 

2

u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

how is it irrelevant when you are trying to counter that the mitanni may have been immersed in both BMAC and indian culture before migrating to Syria / Anatolia by offering absolutely no evidence. i have given you a stack of evidence against your theory that it is cut-and-dry. it is not as cut-and-dry as you assume

3

u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago edited 21d ago

You haven’t given a stack of evidence lol. Your evidence is a peacock seal and the whole Syrian /Indian elephant thing. I never said Mitanni were immersed in Indian culture, I said bmac I think they were. It’s called the Yaz and sapalli culture, which are a cultural fusion of bmac and andronovo / fedorovo. Bmac is not Indian culture (although there are some overlaps). I don’t think you understand fundamentally what I’m saying.

I said the evidence is stronger for one theory (Mitanni came from the steppe) than any theory that involves the Indian subcontinent. 

2

u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago edited 17d ago

steppe

bmac is not the steppe

Yaz and sapalli culture

also not the steppe, and associated with Iranian proper due to lake lack of burials

given a stack of evidence lol

https://old.reddit.com/r/IndoEuropean/comments/1mu0b54/new_preprint_claims_that_the_rigveda_and/n9g1vu6/

2

u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago

Sapalli and Yaz culture are a synthesis of steppe and bmac culture, it represents the steppe people migrating south. We already have concrete evidence that bmac and steppe mixed. From 2000-1500 bce, that is settled.

Yes, your comment is an asko porpola quote from a 2006 book, a Wikipedia link about elephants, and a quote from a source in 1981. As I said, if you think that’s a stack of evidence then clearly you don’t understand what that means lol

2

u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

parpola is a 2020 article post-sanauli

you think that’s a stack of evidence then clearly you don’t understand what that means lol

you've literally provided none. you gave a murdered woman in a well, which offers no proof of the mitanni charioteers

→ More replies (0)