r/IndoEuropean • u/UnderstandingThin40 • 21d ago

Indo-European migrations New preprint claims that the Rigveda and Mittani/Hurrian song (hymn to Nikkal) have the same cadence and are from the same musical foundation

What do you guys think?

Paper: https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202506.1669/v2

Not an expert but this seems like a stretch?

Also the author doesn’t seem to know that the Mitanni come from the steppe and not India, making him seem less credible.

The paper also in general doesn’t come off as professional.

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u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago

No I would agree they went to bmac first and mingled with them and then migrated out to India and Syria 

Yes I think proto ia is the official term, but no one calls it vedic( the andronovo or steppe people in general).Vedic means it’s from the area the Rigveda talks about, so like Punjab to south Afghanistan 

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u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

the andronovo or steppe people in general

again, this is not the mitanni.

no one calls it vedic

the reason they call it vedic is because it aligns with the redaction of the core rigvedic books i.e. ~1500bc. same gods, same language regarding charioteering which is associated with aryan migrations. the language of the rigveda samhita particularly is even more archaic than other sanskrit. descriptions of the Saraswati river in the Rigveda Samhita align with Afghanistani highlands. you are nitpicking over things that are generally uncertain. and there is evidence of BMAC + Late-Harappan influence during the timeline that aligns with the Indo-Iranian split. i encourage you to actually read what im sending you: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/346469122_Royal_Chariot_Burials_of_Sanauli_near_Delhi_and_Archaeological_Correlates_of_Prehistoric_Indo-Iranian_Languages

there is no reason for you to be nitpicking this hard. academics do not nitpick as hard as you are doing. there is no reason to believe the author is not credible

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u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago edited 21d ago

No serious scholar calls the steppe language the Vedic language, it’s not nitpicking, they’re simply wrong. Proto Indo Aryan worlds for chariot predate vedic words. Those are the words Mitanni use.

I’m not saying the Mitanni are andronovo. I’m saying they have andronovo dna and the language comes from the steppe as does their migration.

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u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

calls the steppe language the Vedic language

again, you seem to be flip flopping over whether or not you believe the split of Indo-Iranian to Iranian and Aryan happened in the BMAC or not. the BMAC is not the steppe

steppe as does their migration.

again, we don't know their direct source. i am not ready to go in another circle of flip flopping but if we must ...

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u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago

It happened in both the steppe and bmac area, it’s not binary. We don’t know exactly where the split happened.

As I said the evidence is much stronger that the Mitanni came from the steppe. There is dna and linguistic evidence. 

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u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

There is dna and linguistic evidence.

again, the kulturkugel model does not reject this, but does not confirm that they directly "came from the steppe". circles and circles and circles. lets drop it.

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u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago

Does the kulturkugel model say that the steppe people mingled in the Indian subcontinent and then went west to Syria / Anatolia ? So why would the kulturkugel model support Indian influence in the Mitanni ?Because I don’t think it does.

 I think it says the andronovo / sintashta mingled heavily with bmac and then one group went south into South Asia and another group went west into Syria / Anatolia. I don’t understand where you’re getting the Indian connection other than your peacock deal and Indian elephant argument.

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u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

say that the steppe people mingled in the Indian subcontinent and then went west to Syria / Anatolia ?

i've only said it's uncertain and not as cut and dry as you are stating. you are strawmanning. circles and circles and circles. im starting to think youre an NPC

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u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago

No, I’m saying there is more evidence for one model over another, and your counter is to provide a model that supports my point lol.

The kulturkegel model SUPPORTS my point that Mitanni = steppe + bmac and then migration into Anatolia. It provides 0 evidence there was Indian influence. So can you explain why the kulturkugel model somehow supports the idea that they came from India ?

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u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

i am saying there is not not enough evidence to determine, and it is not cut and dry as you are stating. you got overwhelmed by this information and overreacted. its okay. you will now understand it's not as certain as you previously understood and take this information with you into the future

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u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago

lol your “information” provides more evidence for my theory than yours…

Your other “evidence” is a Wikipedia article on elephants and a quote from a book on the topic in the early 80s. Oh and ofc don’t forget the random right wing Indian blog or meme. 

You still didn’t answer the question: how is the kulturkugel model evidence for Indian influence in the Mitanni ?

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u/GlobalImportance5295 21d ago

provides more evidence for my theory than yours

how exactly? plus i am not giving you anything other than reasonable doubt. you are the one actively doubting the author due to this. it's your condition. i technically have no stake in this either way

random right wing Indian blog or meme.

you asked for vedic words and i gave you literal names that are in the veda and amarna documents. the gods in the treaty are literally indra, mitra, varuna, nasatiyas. those are vedic gods literally. arguably "Old Indic"

scholar

https://www.azargoshnasp.net/history/Aryan/mitanniaryanpantheons.pdf

A key question is whether these data should be interpreted as traces of specifically Indo-Aryan speech and religion, or whether they should rather be identified as Proto-Aryan. It is obvious that an answer to it would have considerable historical implications. The historian will devise a theory to explain how 'Indians,' or 'Proto-Indians,' or 'Para-Indians,' or Proto-Aryans' could come into Western Asia and exercise the influence inferable from those linguistic traces. The linguist is entitled to be more modest. At the first step, he will not attempt to offer an explication in terms of a hypothesis, but to reach a factual decision on the linguistic character of the terms that confront him. Strictly speaking, he is not dealing with 'Indians' or 'Proto-Aryans,' but with 'Indo-Aryan' or 'Proto-Aryan' terms and names. It would be otiose for him to occupy himself with the dilemma: ‘Indo-Aryan' or 'ProtoAryan' speech?-if there were no difference between the two that could be expected to show up in our fragmentary Akkadian and Hittite material.

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u/UnderstandingThin40 21d ago

Because the kulturkugel model you keep using as “evidence” supports my point that the Mitanni migrated from steppe —> bmac —> Syria. It provides evidence the Mitanni migrated from the steppe and never into India and then Anatolia. 

Yes, those are proto indo aryan gods, so it would make sense Vedic god names and Mitanni god names have overlap as they have the same root….

Your logic is like saying Catholics use Protestant words because Catholics use the term Jesus. 

Your last quote again doesn’t provide any evidence for your argument or anything. 

I’ll ask you for the millionth time bc you keep ignoring the question: how does the kulturkugel model somehow provide evidence against the Mitanni migrating from the steppe and how does it provide evidence for them migrating from India ? Can you please answer this basic question bc I don’t understand how you think this supports your point and it mine. 

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