Venting: Inlaws Over the Years

[u/Holiday-Beyond-2843]

My MIL & FIL: venting

(Names changed for privacy.)

Before we got married, my fiancé, Dylan W., and I discussed whether I would take his last name or not. The tradition seemed a little sexist and old-fashioned to both of us. He talked to his parents, and told me they said they wouldn’t mind if we did something different. I wanted to flip a coin at the rehearsal dinner, but he wanted to just go ahead and take my last name (S.), since he liked the sound of it better. I did too, so I agreed. When we visited his parents, they told me they thought it was really cool that we were doing something so modern and feminist.

Ahead of the wedding, it was important to MIL that we have a Jewish wedding. At that time I was willing to do what was needed to get along, still believing that was possible.

We werent Jewish enough for the first officiant MIL found, but met the requirements of the 2nd. At the time, I had a mezuzah by our front door and a small menorah, mostly as a nod to some Jewish ancestry, and also because I am open to celebrating different religious customs when it feels appropriate or meaningful. MIL knew exactly how Jewish-ish I was, but at that point seemed fine with it. Everything went really well at the wedding.

Then the trouble began. We made the mistake of going on a vacation with both my parents and his to my family’s very rustic cabin in very far-north Canada. (Outhouse out back kind of place, with just a wood-burning stove for heat.) Nothing overtly went wrong while we were there, but there were a couple times MIL didn’t want to do something that the rest of us did (or vice versa), and she got increasingly grouchy and sort of angrily withdrawn if we didn’t all do exactly what she wanted us to do. Afterwards, on the long drive to Vancouver to catch our flight home, I rode in the car with my husband and in-laws. My MIL started to yell in a full-on, out-of-the-blue tantrum. She said they cannot compete with the kinds of vacations my parents can offer. She yelled at me about my parents and their money, screaming, “Dylan is not for sale! Our son is not for sale!” I don’t recall exactly how I responded, I was shell-shocked and blind-sided. My husband periodically yelled back. Then, in the middle of the airport, she screamed at me at the very top of her lungs, “You’re turning our son against us and that’s a SIN!! AGAINST!!! GOD!!!!!” I responded in as calm a voice as I could muster, “I think we are all saying things we do not mean, I think we should separate and discuss this when we have all calmed down.” The following May, my MIL stated that she suffered from PTSD due to that trip.

Over Thanksgiving, while I was 5 months pregnant, after a pleasant day, and completely unprovoked, my MIL turned to my husband and said, “the S. family will be your downfall.” She then proceeds to discuss money and her competition with my parents, and said, “Fine, I’ll just have a relationship with my grandkids through pictures,” and, because I was not engaging but my husband was, said to me, “when you are around, you turn my son against me,” and “I don’t care if I have a relationship with you.” Once she had supposedly calmed down, she tried to explain her outburst by saying “I know what it is... our family is all about kindness. We don’t play S. family games. We don’t draw blood.” My husband said with exasperation, “Fine, I’m sorry for bringing S. family games into the house.” My MIL said, “Good, I’m glad you recognize it’s an issue!” I protested in defense of my family, and my FIL said, “This objection to his reconciliation with his mother surely appears as an attempt to divide them. I admonish you to refrain from such interference.”

That same trip, there was also a giant fight about our last name. MIL and FIL said we should change it to their last name. Unsurprisingly, I wasn’t interested, and neither was Dylan.

When we saw them over the winter, my MIL gave me a mini menorah to use, but also combined it with some digs, saying she felt like I lied about how Jewish I was, and expressed disappointment that our kids wouldn’t be raised Jewish.

In part because my husband took my last name, MIL and FIL felt entitled to choose our first son’s name. They really wanted his first name to begin with a “D,” like Dylan’s, with a middle name “Earnest,” just like his dad’s, his paternal grandfather’s, and others in paternal ancestry. At first it seemed like something we could do, but unfortunately Dylan and I just could not agree on a D-name. I liked the idea of David (both my dad’s name and my FIL’s name), and we almost were able to settle on a couple other names, but they just didn’t sound right. We ended up naming our son something else, but still with the middle name Earnest. MIL and FIL were extremely offended and said I was being manipulative, ignoring Dylan’s role.

Over the years, as the insults and fights continue, we are increasingly disinclined to travel to see them. We still visit with my parents because it’s not immensely stressful and torturous, and we’re not being insulted the whole time.

MIL is very jealous and upset that we’re spending more time with my parents than with them. She says we are only giving them “crumbs from the table of joy.” During one of our visits, MIL says, “If someone had told us early on that we would have to compete with a billionaire for vacation time with our son and grandchildren, not wanting to spend our life in the greedy pursuit of money we would have chosen not to have children at all. That's our truth. Let's just stop all this b.s. We (and I'm sure you) have better things to do.” (Side note: the billionaire comment was totally delusional. I wish my parents were billionaires, or even remotely close!)

Also that year, MIL: “I can accept that the wedding officiant might not have stipulated the raising children Jewish part to you. She said it verbally to me in our first conversation. It was her condition for conducting an interfaith marriage. I might email her to clarify.” And also: “In retrospect, a non-Jewish ceremony would have been preferable.” Yet when MIL noticed symbols of Judaism around the house, she said, “I think it’s offensive when people who are not truly Jewish try to present themselves as such.” (What? Woman, you gave me a menorah - and who made you the Jewish-ness police?)

MIL was always asking for gift ideas for the kids. I pass along a link to college funds as a gift idea. MIL responds, “we are honestly uncomfortable with your request, though I realize this is a simply a matter of relative etiquette. What is tasteful and polite in one family may not be tasteful and appropriate in another family. Last year, I talked with a few of my close friends about the college fund request and each of them said that in their families it is not done (even though they are all quite financially successful, more so than ourselves). Again, what is tasteful and polite in one family is not the same as in another family.”

And in the same email: “Please don't visit us out of duty or obligation. Come only if you honestly want to see us and if you think our grandson’s life would be enriched and made happier by contact with us. Honestly, we're fine either way.”

MIL and FIL would consistently thank Dylan for our joint gifts (which I often fully and completely handled), totally ignoring my contribution and name there along with Dylan’s on the card. (They did the same to my husband’s brother’s wife, Samantha, until she gave up and stopped buying joint presents from her and her husband, John. Their interpretation of that was that Samantha wouldn’t allow their son John to keep giving them gifts.)

Correspondence with Dylan and the kids is addressed to “Dylan W.,” or “Tyson W.,” etc, while correspondence to me is addressed to “Elizabeth S.”

I had a miscarriage between each kid, so I was either pregnant or breast-feeding for about a decade, and gained weight. My stomach muscles were stretched out/nonexistent, and during one visit, my MIL stared at my stomach and asked if I was pregnant. I said, “No.” She kept staring at my stomach, and asked, “Are you SURE you’re not pregnant?” I again responded politely, “Yes, I’m sure.” She kept repeatedly staring, very pointedly, at my stomach for the rest of the weekend visit.

While much of this focuses on MIL, the pattern is for her to say horrible things, and FIL to either back her up, or not say anything to contradict it. He also occasionally makes his own negative comments, often in the form of mean jokes that are supposed to be okay because he is ”just joking.” For example, he “joked” that I only went to school to get my M.R.S. degree.

Many, many other insults and blow-ups happened over the years, with MIL saying truly horrible things, and afterwards often denying there was ever any conflict at all. My husband would often engage and tell her to cut it out, only for her to blow up even bigger - and blame me for his anger at her. Early on, I would occasionally try to reason with her, asking, “please do not talk about my family that way,” but it never made any difference or resulted in any positive change. If at all possible (not stuck in a car or something), I would leave the room when she started going off the handle. A few times I tried to reach out afterwards, to outline how her loud, angry outbursts and cruel words negatively affected our relationship and time together - that also made zero difference in her behavior. She seemed in complete denial that this was a major ongoing issue.

MIL and FIL are good with the kids, though, with just a few exceptions that put my hair on end. Like when MIL gave our 5 year-old young son the silent treatment for an imagined slight against her, and refused to go look at the stars with him, or when she would get (faux?) upset at the baby because “the baby doesn’t like me!” The kids love them, they love the kids, and it seems to be a positive relationship.

I foolishly convinced myself that maybe all of our problems just stemmed from jealousy, and if they could have MORE quality time with us, maybe things would actually be better and fine. So we went on a lengthy family vacation with MIL, FIL, my husband’s brother John, his wife Samantha, my husband Dylan and I, and our kids.

During the trip, we all brought water, food, and seltzers to the beach, plenty for everyone, and MIL got very upset because I drank “her” bottled water, insisting I had done it on purpose. (I hadn’t, of course - and in any case, the waters were unopened single-use plastic water bottles.) No one else thought it was intentional and my husband told her to drop it, but MIL remained pouty and upset about it for literally hours.

Later, totally out of the blue, MIL turns and says to me, “We hate each other. I can say that because we’ve been drinking.” Me: “No, I think there’s a lot of love in this family.” MIL: “Oh, but not in YOUR family, right?” Later, she denied the conversation ever occurred. My SIL Samantha had overheard it, and although she rarely speaks up and just silently internalizes MIL’s and FIL’s mistreatment, she said the conversation did happen exactly like that. MIL continued to deny it.

MIL later said, “You and I have real conversations. You wouldn’t want us to have a cocktail relationship, where we are polite but don’t really say anything honest to each other, would you?” I responded, “Actually, a cocktail relationship where we are polite to each other sounds amazing, truthfully I would love that.“ She disagreed.

I’d had enough. I had endured thirteen years of every visit with my MIL and FIL feeling like a failed, one-sided attempt at reconciliation on my part, met only with snide comments and overt hostility. My sense of duty and obligation extended only so far. I had lost all hope for any civil, polite relationship. Life is too short to be around people who are intentionally cruel, consistently and unapologetically. Despite my very best efforts, it clearly was impossible for us to simply get along for the sake of getting along.

So - I’m currently very low contact/no contact. I make myself scarce when they visit, and send my husband and some of the kids to visit them without me. I trust him to keep the kids safe. MIL and FIL actually seem pretty happy with that arrangement, so it’s working well for them and for me. For my husband less so, he comes back stressed and venting.

On multiple occasions, my MIL has mentioned that horrendous lengthy trip together as an example of a great vacation, a time when we all got along. I think she might really believe it, but who knows.

Update: MIL contacted me on Rosh Hashanah, saying she is sorry if she “unintentionally” offended me “15 years ago” and expressing concern that my grudge may be affecting the children.

The kids know I’m distant from their paternal grandparents, as a result of over a decade of conflict. Any awkwardness from removing myself from this toxic situation is much better than them witnessing repeatedly cruelty to their mother, or giant screaming fits. I suspect there will still be barbed comments and yelling, but far less often, when I’m not around to be blamed for it.

[u/botinlaw]

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[u/annonynonny]

I feel like your DH is letting you down SO much with his lack of shutting this down. I'm not sure of the cultural dynamic but honestly if he can't shut her down I don't know why your whole family isn't LC. As it is now, you've given her what she wants which is time with her family without you.

Also I hope you have realized to never take another trip with them ever.

[u/Holiday-Beyond-2843 → u/annonynonny]

He consistently tries.

The dynamic is him yelling at her that she can’t say stuff like that, then she yells that her son raised her voice to her and maybe says some more inappropriate things, Dylan often then yells more, saying things that are tbh pretty mean. So they have this yelling fight that doesn’t involve me, starting with Dylan sticking up for me, ending with them both apologizing to each other for the role played.

Dylan does completely support me that they’re being horrible, though, and isn’t afraid to tell them that. MIL will say something delusional like, “we had the best time last vacation, we should plan another one!” and Dylan will immediately tell her, “uh, no we did not!” Dylan also 100% supports me going VLC or NC. Also, he is down for making plans together about how to respond to her and what boundaries to set.

Tbh MIL and FIL push his buttons more than they do mine at this point, because I’m more emotionally detached. They aren’t my parents and I don’t have much respect for their character, so they (mostly) don’t have the power to hurt me. I still try to behave respectfully and be happy with who I am around them, but it’s about who I am, not what they deserve.

You’re right that I may be giving them what they want - but I’m also giving me what I want, which is not to be treated like that. I’m okay with them being happy, so long as it makes me happy, too.

And I will definitely not go on vacation with them again!!

[u/Concord2018 → u/Holiday-Beyond-2843]

I’m sorry, this sounds like a horribly abusive situation. I’m glad your husband is supportive

[u/Proper-Purple-9065]

She sounds verbally abusive. I wouldn’t bring my kids around that, especially after treating your 7 year old with the silent treatment.

[u/Holiday-Beyond-2843 → u/Proper-Purple-9065]

It was one instance in 7 years, which our now-9yo likely doesn’t even remember. Luckily he is old enough I can get his input. I have asked him about his relationship with them, he said they are always nice to him. Dylan says they often ignore the kids to try to pick a fight with him, but it seems like when they pay attention to the kids, they’re behaved. So long story short, I don’t think she is verbally abusive to the kids. I really didn’t like her yelling horrible things to us in front of the kids, but that seems less frequent now. (Fingers crossed.) Dylan also now tries to take the kids away from the situation and give her some time to calm down, telling her that is what he is doing, rather than engaging.

[u/mercymercybothhands]

I think your MIL and your FIL actually want to be estranged. That might sound crazy given what they say, but they actively and continually start these estrangement level fights. They quickly return to estrangement as the way they will live their lives as soon as a conflict is brought up. They have told themselves a story that your little family is for sale and they can’t afford to make the payments, and so they think you are choosing the wealthy family. When the reality is they actually just enjoy the fantasy of being victims and thinking their child will turn against them. It isn’t a fear; they actively want to live out this narrative because it would fit with their desired image of themselves as wronged.

My sister’s in laws did this kind of thing with thinning they chose us because of the money. My parents did okay but they also aren’t wealthy, but ILs acted like this is the only reason we are closer to them. Not because we are more pleasant and engaging to be around, or because we are supportive —to them it is just a money thing. This narrative suits them because then they don’t have to make any effort because they lost from the word go.

This sounds very much like your IL’s, who don’t want to actually earn a good relationship with you, but with a twist that they love being victims even more.

[u/Holiday-Beyond-2843 → u/mercymercybothhands]

This is good insight!

Tbh I can’t imagine how terrible it must be living inside of my MIL’s brain. Yes she loves to be the victim, but I do think she also truly feels like one, that she feels very jealous and sad. I pity her. (Which is why for so many years I kept trying, despite my efforts to reconcile repeatedly failing.)

[u/LeoRose33]

She sounds very insecure about money.  Shes the only one who thinks it’s a contest. She keeps shooting herself in the foot , then blames other people when she bleeds

Her saying that she doesn’t care if she has a relationship with you is enough to go no contact, or at least very low contact. 

You can even phrase it as not wanting to trigger her PTSD since vacations/time together is so stressful for her 

[u/the_snazzy_snare]

I am honestly exhausted after reading your story so I can only imagine how you feel. This is the epitome of “death by a thousand cuts”. I get the impression that your in-laws want to push you both away. Maybe because they could then say you and your husband chose that and then it gives them the cherry on top of their victim hood cake? Unclear but I’m sending you good vibes after surviving all that.

[u/Mental_Driver1581]

Good for you going LC. I

[u/Mental_Driver1581 → u/Mental_Driver1581]

Oops, I hit reply accidentally. I Was saying , good for you going LC. I recently did the same with my MIL and my life is less stressful as a result, but I don’t know why I CAN’T seem to get her crap out of my head

[u/Holiday-Beyond-2843 → u/Mental_Driver1581]

Yeah every time she calls or comes up, I get a terrible foreboding feeling. Venting here is definitely cathartic.