r/Mafia • u/myprettygaythrowaway • 1d ago

Structurally, how do/did the Irish groups compare to the Italians?

Watched this movie Prime Cut, premise being Irish mobsters from Chicago having to do something in American heartland. It's got Lee Marvin & Gene Hackman, so if you're fans of theirs, you'll like it.

But it's got me thinking that every time I've seen the Irish on screen, they're always portrayed as a lot looser, arguably more laid-back than their Italian counterparts, without necessarily being much less influential or competent than them. Sometimes, like in this movie, they're portrayed as being straight peers to the LCN - great suits, so on. They seem to usually be shown as much more "working class" than the LCN, though. The Departed, Killing Them Softly, The Friends of Eddie Coyle...

So how's/'d all that compare to reality?

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u/italian_pizzapasta2 American Italian Anti-Defamation League 1d ago

The Irish mobs never had the kind of rigid structure the Italians built with the LCN. Crews like the Winter Hill Gang or the Westies usually revolved around one main guy and maybe a right-hand man, but everyone else was just “part of the gang.” There wasn’t the same system of captains, made guys, underbosses, etc.

That looser setup worked for a while, but it’s also part of why most Irish mobs eventually faded out. Once the leader went down or got killed, the whole outfit tended to collapse. The Italians, with their formal hierarchy, could keep things running and replace leaders — which is a big reason why the LCN is still around today and the Irish groups mostly aren’t.

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u/McCool-Sherman Lucchese 1d ago

Second this. Seems like they have 1 guy at the top who has a few guys in his inner-circle.

Maybe if like a guy with the gang owns a place that becomes a hangout for other guys he might get more clout or seen as the face of a gang in a certain area or something---whether that area be a field like gambling, drugs, etc or a geographic area like a neighborhood or street.

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u/myprettygaythrowaway 1d ago

That looser setup worked for a while, but it’s also part of why most Irish mobs eventually faded out. Once the leader went down or got killed, the whole outfit tended to collapse. The Italians, with their formal hierarchy, could keep things running and replace leaders — which is a big reason why the LCN is still around today and the Irish groups mostly aren’t.

Not to doubt you, but I sometimes wonder if it's as straightforward as, "This ethnic group generally moved up from the lower classes, and they just don't have the mass on the streets they used to," for all this kind of stuff.

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u/HertzWhenEyeP 1d ago

This is absolutely true and something people generally don't acknowledge.

By the 70s, the flight of Irish Americans (who by this point had fully shed their "otherness" in the eyes of mainstream America) to the suburbs from the inner city and ethnic enclaves was already well underway, as was their establishment fully within the American middle class.

As an ethnic group is subsumed into the American middle class, their tolerance and need for organized crime diminishes as they are generally more interested in maintaining in white picket fences and green lawns than risking their prosperity.

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u/SpermicidalManiac666 1d ago

Definitely part of it but what LCN had/had that lacks in other groups is a culture and a history. There’s something to perpetuate with LCN whereas loose groups of gangsters with Irish backgrounds don’t have a something to grab onto culturally.

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u/Saddamhuss3in 1d ago

My understanding is that a lot of Irish mobsters were/are typically associates of Italian families.

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u/ShaolinMaster 1d ago

The Italians also weren't just focused on illegal rackets, they also had legit businesses that were truly legit (as opposed to just being fronts).

One can also be a LCN member without being a criminal. Being an active criminal isn't a requirement for membership. That's very different from other organized crime groups.

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u/Charger2950 28m ago

Exactly. Legit business (where literally no crime goes on and they aren’t fronts for illegal things) were/are a huge part of LCN, too.

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u/Acrobatic_Selection9 23h ago

I am a bit doubtful of what you say about LCN members not being active criminals. Some might have gone mostly legit over time but that’s it as far as I know.

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u/ShaolinMaster 22h ago

Being a criminal is not a requirement for membership. For example, in Hamilton, Ontario, CeCe Luppino was offered membership and he turned it down. He wasn't a criminal, he was a real estate agent. But he had the bloodlines as his family was involved.

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u/Acrobatic_Selection9 9h ago

He turned it down because (his own words), there is no money in it. That suggests he would get involved if he got made right?

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u/ShaolinMaster 5h ago

Possibly, but I think it shows he wasn't already an active criminal before being offered membership.

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u/Acrobatic_Selection9 1h ago

Makes sense, but it also means they expect him to become one if he joined.

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u/Sharpe_Points 1d ago

Where did you find a copy of Prime Cut? I've been searching for it for 2 years and can't find it streaming or hard copy.

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u/999_Seth 19h ago

^ fed

/s

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u/DepressedJohnnyQuest 1d ago

That jives a lot with St. Louis’s Irish outfit: one boss, several important lieutenants, and more working class than their Italian counterparts

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u/myprettygaythrowaway 1d ago

Any good material on them? When were they active, or at their peak?

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u/DepressedJohnnyQuest 23h ago

I mostly pull from newspaper archives as any books written on them are local and out of print. Their boss, Buster Wortman, had gotten cliqued up with Al Capone’s gang in prison and when he got out he unified the many Irish bootlegging gangs into the Wortman organization that had their golden days in 1940s-1960s, controlling East St. Louis, Southern Illinois, and much of St. Louis proper. After he died, his old bodyguard Art Berne took over. Berne was Jewish but most assumed he was Irish. A nephew of one of their most prominent members still runs the laborer’s union in STL. “Stonekiller” by Robert Lawrence is very poorly written but would serve as a good basis.

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u/myprettygaythrowaway 23h ago

any books written on them are local and out of print

Internet Archive, libraries, etc. - gimme some recs!

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u/DepressedJohnnyQuest 21h ago

Stonekiller by Robert Lawrence
Confessions of a Mob Hitman by Ray Flynn Crooks Kill, Cops Lie by Timothy Richards

Tbh they mostly suck (Richards is the best). Stonekiller is quite floury and low on details, confessions is rife with errors but fills in a lot of famous mystery murders here locally, Richards was a member of the mob-unit in STL and has some interesting background info.

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u/Stock-Temperature177 1d ago

Irish bosses had a main enforcer or two on top with him, everyone else randomly scattered underneath. No official structuring or rituals. Good connections with corrupt police officials and politicians.