r/MensLib • u/futuredebris ​ • 16d ago

The cure for male loneliness is feminism. Seriously.

https://makemenemotionalagain.substack.com/p/the-cure-for-male-loneliness-is-feminism

Curious your thoughts! I wrote about how the answer to male loneliness is caring, and how caring is really, really hard. Especially for those of us who’ve been socialized as men. We’ve been told that anything outside of going to work or optimizing ourselves by lifting weights, sitting in ice baths, and pounding creatine isn’t worth much. That caring for others isn’t a “productive” or “efficient” use of our time. That someone else will always end up doing it. That we’re not supposed to do it because women are naturally, biologically designed for it and we’re not (which is untrue). That if we do it, we’re less valuable, like a woman, less of a man. But showing up and caring is both good for other people and us. We have to do more of it.

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u/ShiroiTora ​ 16d ago edited 16d ago

I don’t think these are mutually exclusive. The reason lot of men struggle with this is because the behaviour is perceived as “gay”, feminine, or girly, therefore “inferior” to how are “supposed to behave”.  Breaking the stigma around it would help men feel more comfortable to be emotionally vulnerable and more openly supportive with each other.

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u/gn16bb8 ​ 16d ago

Yes, masculinity is a prison inside patriarchy, when it could be the most liberating, beautiful and nurturing set of norms

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u/WiteXDan ​ 16d ago edited 15d ago

I agree with this, but in reality I was more often called gay or rejected (even in friendships) by women than men.
My back-then closest friend told me directly that she believes (in a sense that it is universally true) men should be dominant, know what they want, have iron fist and inferior men are seeking a mother, not a partner. I let that pass, but with time as I showed my vulnerabilities and struggles she started more and more treat me like a child.

I'm aware these are just anegdotes, but it left scar on me for years and everytime I tried to interact with another woman I heard echoes of her statements. Similarly my mother always said and showed that woman should be obedient and man deciding and doing everything. I used to have a lot of female friends, but only a few of them said that dominant men are not more attractive.
I can't change myself in this way, so I just keep going, but it's really hard for me to believe these things when they in practice don't seem true.

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u/Beneficial_Wolf3771 ​ 15d ago

Women can harbor antiquated patriarchal ideals just as much as men can. Doesn’t mean they’re right

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u/ACartonOfHate ​ 15d ago

Shocking that the dominant cultural norm is swallowed as being the norm by both men and women, to the detriment of both.

Oh wait., it's not shocking at all.

It's sad but completely expected that most people internalize the toxic messages people get from, literally, the time they are born. It requires both knowledge, and commitment to fight against it.

So we should feel sorry for those people who embrace their oppression, but realize it isn't indicative of anything, but how successful the brainwashing is.

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u/Ok-Situation-5522 ​ 16d ago

yikes. yep, it sucks to hear that sort of stuff from women, they should be the ones more likely to dislike this structure, but i guess some are thriving in it.

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u/Ombortron ​ 15d ago

Both men and women can support “patriarchal” norms and toxic masculinity etc. I guess I sometimes expect better from the women lol, I’m used to the way dudes usually behave, although I think it’s improving.

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u/WiteXDan ​ 15d ago

The worst thing for me was that she was a psychotherapist by profession and had lots of male friendships. She was well aware of this 'dominant men' discourse and I expected from her to break this stereotype.

Yet she frequently did tests on me to see how assertive and dominant I am. Constantly disagreeing on basic things expecting from me to shout at her. Talking about other "better" men to make me jelous. Ridiculing me for not hitting her when "she deserved". Ghosting unless I gave orders instead of asking. Repeating things like men shouldn't live with parents after 18yo, every man should have driving license.

She was wildly successful in life and smart af, so I really wanted to make that friendship work and thought she was right in these beliefs, but looking back I only tortured myself for a very long time.

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u/GladysSchwartz23 ​ 15d ago

She sounds completely nuts and like someone you shouldn't give much thought to going forward.

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u/WiteXDan ​ 15d ago

Oh yes she was. I could talk for hours about fcked up stuff she did to me and others or her twisted beliefs.

I gave up after she lied to me 5 times in just two interactions. When I approached her she refused to be truthful in the future, because that would require energy from her and our friendship doesn't have value for her to spend more than zero energy on it.

Sorry for ranting, but saying these things feels cathargic in a way.

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u/Ombortron ​ 15d ago

Wow, there’s a lot to unpack there! Glad they’re in your review mirror!

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u/Space_Pirate_Roberts ​ 15d ago

Yikes. Where did she get her therapy degree, Liberty University?

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u/rhodopensis ​ 15d ago

People like this are quacks who believe in pseudoscience.

The hitting part sounds like upbringing (seeing her family act that way) combined with… Total lack of acceptance of having a fetish lol

A LOT of hardcore gender role believers just find it enjoyable to play out those roles but are too “normative/straight laced” to accept it’s their own personal vaguely BDSM “thing”. So they spend their whole lives repeating this shit like it’s a religion that everyone must be born with. “Men and women naturally ARE and act this way” - rip the mask off - they find it hot to be dominator or dominated lol.  

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u/Thusgirl ​ 15d ago

Unfortunately, "The misogyny is coming from the inside of the house." isn't an uncommon phrase.

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u/HeftyIncident7003 ​ 15d ago

There are still a lot of women who believe in male dominance over them. At this time they are called Trad-wives.

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u/BBOY6814 ​ 15d ago

What’s even more crazy is that it’s not even just tradwives. I have a number of feminist women I consider close friends, and every single one of them feels that way. Not as militantly as a tradwife, but the expectation is still there. To be honest, of all the women IRL I’ve spoke to about it, I’ve never met one that didn’t feel this way. They seem to only exist on reddit, lol.

All this tells me is that patriarchal expectations on men have not really budged at all in the last couple decades, which is disappointing. These harmful ideas are not being interrogated enough IMO.

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u/denanon92 ​ 15d ago

Reminds me of a quote from a 2018 paper by Srinivasan discussing the then recent phenomenon of incels and growing isolation among young men : "The question​, then, is how to dwell in the ambivalent place where we acknowledge that no one is obligated to desire anyone else, that no one has a right to be desired, but also that who is desired and who isn’t is a political question, a question usually answered by more general patterns of domination and exclusion."

This is a part of the reason why it's difficult for progressive spaces to address dating. On the one hand, we can't tell people that they *have* to get rid of their preferences because people have a right to date who they want, yet at the same time we can't ignore how "preferences" often reinforce patriarchy and prejudice. For example, there's a video on preferences I've seen (link) featuring interviews of gay Asian men in America telling their experiences with racism while dating. They all struggled with finding a partner that didn't expect them to be submissive and feminine, and some felt a desire to fulfill those stereotypes just to get a relationship. I think cis het men have similar pressures to act more stereotypically cis het male in order to get a date, as well as the worry that without fulfilling masculine roles they may never find a partner.

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u/ShiroiTora ​ 15d ago

Being a feminist does not make them immune to internalized misgony. Doesn’t make it ok. I would even encourage to gently call them out on it.

Can I ask what culture and how old you are? This may be a matter of ancedotes vs ancedotes but most feminists in my circle don’t believe in this (though expectations and preferences are different) but know feminists from more conservative cultures struggle with this more (saying from experience).

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u/BBOY6814 ​ 15d ago

I have gently questioned them about it, and the conversation always ends with “those are just my preferences!”

I’m in my mid 20s in Canada. The cultures they have come from have been varied, but all were 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants or more. Tbh, I’ve learned to look at what people do instead of what they say. The inconsistency often becomes less surprising that way.

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u/ShiroiTora ​ 15d ago

  “those are just my preferences!”

but the expectation is still there

So are they expectations of how men should act, or are they what type of partner they prefer?  Expectations on how a man or woman should are different from what someone may prefer in a partner. This goes both ways. A man can be feminist but still prefer more passive or feminine. Preferences to some degree are based on an individual and that can be fine. Its when they mistreat or belittle those who do not fit the conventional norm.

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u/HeftyIncident7003 ​ 15d ago

I share these same thoughts.

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u/maafna ​ 15d ago

I think a lot of feminists don't believe this rationally, so we don't even notice if we repeat these things subtly and unconsciously.

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u/HeftyIncident7003 ​ 15d ago

It kind of shows how complex people can be. I am often in wonder of how some of my thoughts and behaviors are contradictory.

I don’t think I am with you on Patriarchy. I think what people experience is reflective of what/who they surround themselves with. Almost all of my friends, to the bet of my knowledge, are moving away from the Patriarchal model. It is hard to do because most of us have our mindsets still rooted in a relationship structure established by the Patriarchal model. For men in particular, if they find it hard to give up their “inherent” power, they will struggle.

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u/Thusgirl ​ 15d ago

They're not great feminists then are they... Just yikes man I'm sorry that's been your experience.

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u/rhodopensis ​ 15d ago

Sounds like you have been unfortunate enough to be surrounded by many socially conservative women. That is where these standards come from, upbringing, tbh

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u/minahmyu ​ 15d ago

I sooo feel like this is when stepping outside one's experiences and observing another can really help.

For myself, despite being a bit of a weeaboo, I do compare and contrast the japanese culture even down to how they can be socially and what some of their media shows (not just anime, I like a lot of their live action stuff) Some things from their culture that cishet men do may appear "gay" or "feminine" to say, an american culture. And I think from how they can live in that moment with it being so normalized they don't have to second guess doing that specific thing because it's normal. And when doing critical thinking on it, what even makes that specific action "bad" or "wrong" or "weird?" That's just my own biases and experiences showing and I even question that. And accept that something I wasn't raised with doesn't mean it's wrong or bad or not right; it's just different.

(Like how some cultures don't sexualize the naked body, or folks not thinking twice showering in front of someone nude.) Being open minded is what helps us to finally be accepting of new ideas and things that may actually work for us if we weren't so prejudice and stuck.