The cure for male loneliness is feminism. Seriously.

[u/futuredebris]

https://makemenemotionalagain.substack.com/p/the-cure-for-male-loneliness-is-feminism

Curious your thoughts! I wrote about how the answer to male loneliness is caring, and how caring is really, really hard. Especially for those of us who’ve been socialized as men. We’ve been told that anything outside of going to work or optimizing ourselves by lifting weights, sitting in ice baths, and pounding creatine isn’t worth much. That caring for others isn’t a “productive” or “efficient” use of our time. That someone else will always end up doing it. That we’re not supposed to do it because women are naturally, biologically designed for it and we’re not (which is untrue). That if we do it, we’re less valuable, like a woman, less of a man. But showing up and caring is both good for other people and us. We have to do more of it.

[u/kafkatan → u/[deleted]]

Legit asked in good faith - when you say ‘specifically geared towards men’s problems’ can you give an example of one?

And how might women experience the same / similar problem?

As say - just curious as to your thinking

[u/WitOfTheIrish → u/[deleted]]

It is more accurate to say that feminism's aims are gender-neutral, but the movement itself IS geared specifically towards the problems women face.

Everything is nuanced, but this is largely incorrect from a historical perspective, and I would encourage you to expand your understanding of feminism. The further unfortunate thing is that exactly the mentality you express is weaponized against men to draw them towards movements such as MRA and away from feminism (at best) or against feminism (at worst).

This is not critique of you though. It's very messy, and I totally understand where you are coming from. We're basically at the point now where feminism starting with the syllable "fem" is an impediment to men taking part in it, which is caused by misunderstanding both from withing and outside of feminist communities. Which is silly, but also very, extremely real.

Where and how men are included in the cause and under the same tent is not always the most obvious. But this sub is at least partial proof that feminism is very much for men! From the sub rules:

This is a pro-feminist community and unconstructive antifeminism is not allowed.

If you're up for some reading, here's a decent list of some spots to start with if you want some further reading on the subject: https://www.feministmenproject.com/post/10-books-for-feminist-men

I have not read all of it. Of what I have read, For the Love of Men is easy reading, if a bit surface level, then the Bell Hooks book and the Nikki van der Gaag book speaks well to the core sentiment of what you are expressing.

[u/Idrahaje → u/[deleted]]

No. The problems men and women face are two sides of the same coin. The coin is patriarchy.

[u/greyfox92404 → u/[deleted]]

It is more accurate to say that feminism's aims are gender-neutral, but the movement itself IS geared specifically towards the problems women face.

The movement isn't geared specifically towards the problems women face. It's the people who are feminists are people and people advocate for issues close to them.

I'm mexican and I advocate more strongly for immigration than I do other topics because that topic is close to me. That's normal and reasonable. Does that mean I don't support other issues too?

It was feminists that created the first ever mens-only shelter. Not egalitarians but feminists. It wasn't egalitarians that legislated guaranteed paid parental leave for the birth of my child.

Calling it a "feminist" ideal still sends this message that only a movement catering to women's problems has the ability to sort this out

Do you see other groups exercising power to challenge trad masc gender roles? No, we don't. This is just you still clinging on to aversion to anything that sounds femme or womanly.

[u/greyfox92404 → u/[deleted]]

If you support some other cause, you are labeled as whatever-that-cause-is-ist. It never implies you care about that and that only.

That's not how labels work. Satanists don't worship satan. Stalinist don't support stalin. I don't only support women's issues because I'm a feminist man.

You're just using this to justify this idea that to have that anything with "fem" in the name has to mean feminine or for women. This is an aversion to feminine that so many men struggle with the toxic masculinity.

Feminism has done more for freeing men from traditional gender roles restrictions than any other group. No other group has done more for men. But you think they don't have men in mind? Name another group that has fought harder for men's gender roles.

If you can't see my point, then just ask yourself, why does this sub exist, when ARfeminism exists already?

That's a silly question. Read the sidebar. Not all feminist aligned spaces want to do the same thing in their community as the ARfeminism sub. This isn't a strictly feminist space either. This isn't a sub centered around political praxis, like feminism is.

[u/greyfox92404 → u/[deleted]]

Why do you think I need to do this?

Because you cannot. Because you know that you cannot name a group that has done more for men's gender role inclusion. Which group is more dedicated to men's gender role issues? We both know that you cannot answer this question.

Calling it a "feminist" ideal still sends this message that only a movement catering to women's problems

And even knowing there doesn't exist any better groups and that feminism is gender-neutral, I think you still cannot recognize the benefit feminism does for men because of your aversion to femininity.

[u/Nillavuh → u/[deleted]]

FYI I have been reporting you for bad faith every time you accuse me of this. It is both bad faith AND incorrect.

FWIW you are 100% correct here.

[u/greyfox92404 → u/[deleted]]

You're right, I can't. So therefore what?

The most successful group for the furtherment of men's gender role is feminism. That no group has been a bigger advocate for men's gender-role. And there is a reason that you still associate feminism as "not-for-men". Pull on that thread.

[u/greyfox92404 → u/[deleted]]

But... why?

OK, let me take a step back.

If the goals are aligned and our ideology is aligned, why set up a distinctly separate group? Just to say, we aren't women?

We don't have to be feminist but you started with the idea that feminism is feminine and that's why it's not for men. Right? That's that's the starting point for this conversation. I think I showed that feminism isn't feminine.

Then you said [term]-ist means you support that term as a way to say feminist only (or majorly) supports women, and that's why it's not for men. I think I showed that terms for groups don't follow that naming convention (satanists don't worship satan)

We can even point to the success of this group and it's accomplishments for men, more than any other group. But you still say it's not for men.

Time and time again, you are stuck on this idea that feminism is incompatible with men. For no reason that I can discern other than. There is a reason you have this notion of feminism being incompatible with men and you seemingly can't explain why you feel that way.

I think that you see a movement of women and you'd rather form a separate group to accomplish less because we do not want to identify with those women. what else are you protesting other than there identity as women?

[u/Nillavuh → u/greyfox92404]

And even knowing there doesn't exist any better groups and that feminism is gender-neutral, I think you still cannot recognize the benefit feminism does for men because of your aversion to femininity.

He said as clearly as he possibly could have that he "has no aversion to feminism", but you still accused him of having one. This was a tough thread to read because it's clear that the guy you're talking to is in a pretty bad headspace and you're barreling ahead without sympathy, but you're really the one handling this conversation poorly, from what I can tell. Rule 2 clearly states

Disagreements should be handled with respect, cordiality, and a default presumption of good faith.

so if he tells you he has no aversion to feminism, follow the rules and take him on his word that he indeed has no aversion to feminism.

[u/greyfox92404 → u/Nillavuh]

He said as clearly as he possibly could have that he "has no aversion to feminism",

I'm not suggesting an aversion to feminism, the ideology. But to femininity, or the association to women. In his replies, he's refutes an aversion to feminism. Which is the crux of our original disagreement. Seeing feminism as femininity, and then making the switch to femininity as not for men.

Even your reply uses "feminism" and not femininity, like I've been using.

I reply the second time to reiterate that it's an aversion to femininity. That's different and that's the point. The second time he refutes an aversion to femininity and I drop it thereafter. I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm trying to reiterate that feminism isn't femininity when those terms are being used interchangeably. We spoke briefly in direct chats but I defaulted to stop engaging because I don't think my input is going to be fruitful or helpful.

[u/Nillavuh → u/greyfox92404]

Indeed it isn't, because you sent him down a dark path and I'm having to do a lot of damage control for you. I'm talking to him now. Please avoid talking to him again, but in the future, I genuinely hope you at least TRY to self-reflect on your conversation here. It seemed very clear to me that your primary interest was in being the aggressive, dominating redditor who crushes his opponents in debate, which is a very patriarchal way of behaving, IE the antithesis of who men should be in this world. I think the whole way you carried about yourself here is deeply troubling, deeply rooted in the egoism of patriarchy, and I think you've got a LOT of work you need to do on yourself if you really think there's an excuse for what you did here.

[u/greyfox92404 → u/Nillavuh]

Well, I'll consider your words thoughtfully and earnestly. Do you think it's more helpful to delete my own comments?

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