r/MensLib • u/futuredebris ​ • 18d ago

The cure for male loneliness is feminism. Seriously.

https://makemenemotionalagain.substack.com/p/the-cure-for-male-loneliness-is-feminism

Curious your thoughts! I wrote about how the answer to male loneliness is caring, and how caring is really, really hard. Especially for those of us who’ve been socialized as men. We’ve been told that anything outside of going to work or optimizing ourselves by lifting weights, sitting in ice baths, and pounding creatine isn’t worth much. That caring for others isn’t a “productive” or “efficient” use of our time. That someone else will always end up doing it. That we’re not supposed to do it because women are naturally, biologically designed for it and we’re not (which is untrue). That if we do it, we’re less valuable, like a woman, less of a man. But showing up and caring is both good for other people and us. We have to do more of it.

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u/greyfox92404 ​ 18d ago

Well, I'll consider your words thoughtfully and earnestly. Do you think it's more helpful to delete my own comments?

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u/Spleeetz ​ 18d ago

U/nillavuh is being ridiculous, you have done nothing but politely debate this person. If their mental state is deteriorating this badly just from someone politely correcting them, they need professional help and should probably avoid online forums in general. No one on this thread could reasonably be expected to know that a polite conversation would send them off the deep end.

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u/Nillavuh ​ 18d ago

Does it matter? The damage is already done.

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u/Spleeetz ​ 18d ago

You’re trying to making this person feel like a villain for no reason. I highly doubt you are engaging in good faith - I think you are trying to manipulate the situation to make u/greyfox92404 look like a bully. They are being perfectly reasonable and polite.

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u/greyfox92404 ​ 18d ago

Maybe, maybe not. But it would be more thoughtful to extend that option to you since you're more involved in the secondary convo.

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u/Nillavuh ​ 18d ago

Why, exactly, do you think this would help?

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u/greyfox92404 ​ 17d ago

Because it would allow you the choice in whether my comments should still be viewable vs relying on my choice. That you can weigh if my comments would serve as a harmful reminder since their comments are deleted.

It would be easier to remove my comments and ignore your words and I'm trying to instead lean on your guidance.

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u/Nillavuh ​ 17d ago

You seem to have answered some question that I never asked you. You appear to have answered something like

Why did you give me comment-controlling privileges?

when what I asked you was

Why do you think this would help?

I think the confusion here is because, sadly, you set the poor guy aside when you read my question and don't seem to care about him anymore, so I'll add a word that should clarify what I am asking you:

Why do you think this would help HIM?

I don't even understand the rest of what you're saying here. "my comments would serve as a harmful reminder..." a reminder of what, to whom? You are somehow making this super weird and way more complicated than it needs to be. Like why are you going to such great lengths to avoid just saying sorry to the guy?

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u/greyfox92404 ​ 17d ago

I know you can't know this but when he reached out to me directly in a private message yesterday, I expressed that I could not possibly know him in the way that he knows himself and that I was sorry. That was before our conversation.

He shared some details about himself that I won't be sharing, but it was clear to me that my continued conversation with him isn't helping him feel better. That's not in an effort to set him aside, that's me recognizing I'm just making it worse for him. I don't plan on reaching out to them again and I think both of us understand that would probably only make it worse.

And I get there's probably nothing I can say that's going to make you feel better about me, that's okay too.

As this relates to our topic on hand, my first instinct when someone tells me that my words has caused them somewhat of stress or grief, is to delete them. So there's not a reminder of that conversation. I also imagine there's some value in leaving my words up so that you can critique them and point out my failings.

Given that any choice I make would inherently be in service to myself, I wanted to offer that choice to you.

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u/Nillavuh ​ 17d ago

Well, maybe it is time to learn how to make decisions on your own that are for the benefit of others, without needing them to do that for you. If you're genuinely at a loss as to how to do something that you think will help someone else, I think you really need to work on that about yourself, my man.

I mean for real I also find it odd that you don't seem to have the slightest clue how to get this guy in your good graces, or mine. I've never had this problem, ever, with anyone, because I take the time and make the effort to get to know people, understand them, and know what sorts of things they appreciate and what works for them. It baffles me that you don't know how to do this, and it baffles me even more that you'd willingly hold this position of power and authority, with plenty of influence, without knowing how to do this.

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u/Nillavuh ​ 18d ago

Well you're not responding to my question so I'll just tell you it seems like a very disconnected and clueless suggestion, like you seem completely at a loss on how to fix anything you did here, which is deeply concerning. Because it's actually really simple - you apologize. You acknowledge the mistakes you made to prove that your apology is indeed sincere, and you say, my bad.

Men have a lot of resistance to doing this sort of thing because of patriarchal thinking. It shows incredible weakness to admit fault, and we men are not WEAKLINGS, we are STRONG and MIGHTY and probably also perfect and flawless and all that. This patriarchal line of thinking is probably what led you astray here, asking, what can I possibly do to avoid having to admit fault or say sorry or do anything to help out my fellow man who is clearly hurting and so you came up with this bizarre conclusion instead, as a result of your patriarchal thinking.

Let me explain some of what was going on with him that made your actions so upsetting for him: his problems are rooted in relationship troubles and he has struggled in dating for a long time, which is, of course, a pervasive problem in society, particularly amongst men. But as he pointed out, a lot of women are able to join communities and support each other with relationship issues, even to the point of supporting each other's choice NOT to get into a relationship and embrace the single life, not out of a sense of "giving up" but as a valid life choice. The guy was seeking similar support from men and seems to lack good male support in his life and thought it would help him out considerably to have it (it would) and so he sought it out for himself. That's why he came here.

And what happened next? He engaged with who I now understand is the LEADER of this space, and that leader was incredibly rude and hostile to him, coming at him with bad faith accusations and leveling all sorts of negative shit at him and ignoring what he was saying, treating him largely like the dirt beneath your heels. It's hard to really drive home how awful it is when the person in charge of a space like this is doing this, because what can he expect from the rest of the community if even the guy who supposedly CREATED the rules on respect and positivity is doing anything BUT follow them? Take that thought a bit further, and you'll see how damaging this is to men's causes in general - whoever is seeking the support of men in spaces where men congregate, know that these spaces are run by men falling right into patriarchal, domineering thinking who will assault you over seemingly minor things and won't even bother following their own rules of respect. Think about what that says about the possibility of EVER seeking any help from men, anywhere, and then maybe you'll begin to understand why this guy spiraled like he did last night. You helped bring this about with your own actions.

I would seriously consider just what the hell you think you are doing RUNNING a space like this if you can't even follow the basic rules of decency and offer respect to your fellow man. I mean I saw how you treated him and saw the aftermath of your conversation and it was like you've never had a difficult interaction with anyone in your life and have possibly learned to only ever play offense and shove people away when times are tough, which is the patriarchal way of handling conflict and is also incredibly toxic and should be dismissed entirely. You might think that you are fighting for the cause of feminism or whatever more grandiose cause you support, but what ACTUALLY matters is these individual conversations you have with real men, in real time, and in this case you really fucked a guy up badly with the way you conversed with him, and so if you ask me, you're doing more harm than good from your position.

If you're going to choose to continue retaining your position as a leader in this community, I hope you deeply consider the patriarchal elements of your behavior and how damaging they can be, and have been, towards the cause of supporting men, a cause that is critically important in the modern world.