r/NoStupidQuestions • u/Garey_Coleman • 10d ago

Where are the homeless supposed to go?

Cities have been cracking down on homeless people so they can’t have encampments or stay on sidewalks. At the same time usually the shelters are full. So those who are unable to get into a shelter, where are they supposed to go?

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u/whatugonnadowhenthey 10d ago edited 10d ago

Since no one is answering the question in good faith, I’ll give it a shot. Honestly, most cities don’t give a shit if a homeless guy is sleeping on a stoop or in a alley or something, it’s been part of living in a city for thousands of years. They care when dozens of them set up tent cities in public areas and start trashing them. That’s when it becomes a real problem because once a tent city is established, less regular folk go to the area, which leads to more homeless, which leads to less regular folk, which leads to businesses leaving, etc. etc.

So the answer to your question is out of open air drug dens and into more individual spaces that are less of an eye sore and quite frankly a danger to the community. Literally “disperse”.

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u/Eudaimonics 9d ago

The ideal solution is:

  • More public housing for those on Social Security/SSI
  • More transitional housing for those with steady jobs that just need a place to live for a few months
  • Long Term Treatment Clinics

Ultimately this costs a lot more money than just building shelters or ensuring people aren’t needlessly dying from overdoses/dirty needles.

I feel like one side doesn’t want to spend a dime on “other people’s problems” and the other is too focused on bandaids and someone’s right to live in a tent than actual long term solutions.

Shelters, Narcan access and safe injection sites just cover up the symptoms, they’re not the cure.

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u/Hobbesfrchy 9d ago

You'll have to convince the homeless to both accept help, accept treatment, and stop using their drug of choice. Good luck

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u/Eudaimonics 9d ago

Drugs are illegal, so it would be pretty easy for a doctor to prescribe long term treatment to a judge over jail time. We just need the beds at treatment facilities.

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u/Hobbesfrchy 9d ago

Sadly most homeless addicts will refuse help

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u/Eudaimonics 9d ago

What part of court order don’t you understand?

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u/UniqueSaucer 9d ago

Addiction recovery isn’t a one and done thing. After this jail recovery time you’re recommending they have to want to continue to stay clean. It takes effort and if you didn’t want to recover in the first place, it won’t take long to fall back into it.

I have family members with drug addictions, you can’t force them to stay clean because they don’t want to. Yes, they’ve done time. No, they didn’t stay clean.

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u/NorCalAthlete 9d ago

It’s not just pushing out foot traffic and trashing areas.

In San Jose there are homeless encampment fires almost weekly that get big enough to be seen from anywhere in the city. Sometimes in difficult-for-emergency-crews-to-access areas. The homeless here will wire up solar panels and generators and all manner of wonky electrical work, but they’re doing it in dry creek beds full of brush and such so a single spark sets things off fairly easily.

Something like 90% of calls for service for EMS are for the same repeat offenders.

So it has a major impact on emergency and medical services.

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u/Key-Possibility-5200 6d ago

That’s so true. Also true that here in Albuquerque there are public spaces (including the park nearest me) that are unusable for the community because they’ve become unsafe and unhygienic camps. I have compassion for the homeless but the impacts on the rest of us in the community also has a place in the conversation. I realize without context that sounds like nothing other than NIMBYism, but people with all the compassion sometimes forget who ALSO lives in the low income neighborhoods where camps end up being allowed- it’s people like me who can’t afford a “nicer” neighborhood. Don’t I as a single mom, as a survivor of DV, with a disabled child- merit any of the same compassion? I think my kids should be able to go to our park, but instead we have to drive to the third spaces in the wealthier neighborhoods. 

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u/BeardedDisc 10d ago

Part of the answer here is that those “encampments” make it more “comfortable” (I get that’s it’s still a shit hole). Many people feel this removes much of the incentive to pull oneself out of this situation one way or another.

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u/Witty_Replacement969 10d ago edited 9d ago

For some encampments are safer. A single homeless female is almost always a target for rape if her sleeping place is discovered. One friend had a brick thrown at her while sleeping. I am one of the 'working poor' and do not do drugs, alcohol, and am not a criminal, and I have seizures, but I do not make enough to qualify for a safe rental (currently min. income for a cheap studio is 3x rent, plus 3 -12 month deposit, key deposit, etc.). It would currently take 2 roommates plus myself to rent a studio unit (this is all across my country). No LL will accept that. By safe I mean not filled with bed bugs, cockroaches, or a LL after sex, with a proper water and heat supply and a locking door.  Sudsidized housing is a decade long wait here. I'm waiting for medically assisted death now (available in my country), because I was doing everything the legal and correct way, and am a hard worker, but why should I >want< to work to enrich other people who want me to freeze to death in the winter while paying me minimum wage? These are the same people who would prefer I go die out of sight. I was in 3rd year of a Microbiology degree before becoming homeless. COL forced me to drop out to work. I have no family. I have no wealthy friends. I'm sick of running in your rat race and becoming worse off when I have never had the opportunities most of you take for granted. Food banks are only open 1 - 2 hours (when I work) so that I can not access them. I paid taxes from the age of 15, but to this country I am a piece of trash. 

Edit: The country is Canada.  I am not considered disabled enough for the Disability Tax Credit and Benefit. I am too old to qualify for most student programs and too young to qualify for any seniors. I do not qualify for any scholarships because I am not racially profiled, do not have dependents, am not the first person to go to university in my family, am not a refugee or asylum claimant, new immigrant, etc. and while I am a good student, I'm not a genius. If I do not >qualify< to live, what else can I do but at least have some control over my exit? For those going on about mental health: Therapy needs to be done from a place of physical stability due to issues that come up during it. A person living in survival mode should not be doing therapy other than coping skills. Also, it can cost $170/hr for proper treatment. That is not covered by provincial health.

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u/PaisleyLeopard 10d ago

I’m so sorry you’re in this situation. It isn’t right, no one should be stuck without options.

I hope you find the peace the you deserve, and I dearly hope you can find a way to accomplish that without having to exit the planet. I won’t hold my breath though—humanity’s track record on compassion isn’t great.

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u/throw1away9932s 9d ago

Honest response here of how I did it. Get a case worker. They are free. Look them up in your area. It will be a phone chain pass around nightmare but you will find one. 

Step 2 the case worker sets you up with free group therapy. It isn’t great but it’s something you can build on. 

Step 3: the case worker connects you with resources and is able to advocate for disability for you and knows the system and how to appeal. 

Step 4: which is shitty but works. Go to the hospital tell them how you feel and that you want to die. They will keep you over night but also hook you up with a psychiatrist. 

Things get a bit better. 

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u/External_Tart_ 10d ago

Why not become a criminal? If you see death as the only way out, embrace free will. I'm sorry about your situation.

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u/PaisleyLeopard 10d ago

This highlights a really good point. The situation we put people in causes crime, not the other way around as is generally assumed. Basically, we want to think that homeless people ‘deserve’ their situation because they’re all druggies and/or criminals—that way we don’t have to feel bad for the inhumane ways we deal with them. In reality, the majority of criminals and addicts started doing those things out of desperation, because they didn’t have better options. When we take care of people, they’re a helluva lot less likely to turn to crime or self medication.

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u/HeKis4 10d ago

The situation we put people in causes crime

Society is nothing but a set of rules we impose to live together in peace. If you give people no reason to live as a society (or worse, actively push them away), surprise, they stop following the rules. Insane, I know.

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u/Raptor_197 9d ago

That’s why banishment used to work so well back in the day.

It gave people that didn’t fit within the society a chance to find a new one, but if they couldn’t they simply got recycled back into the ecosystem.

Before the well that sounds cruel comments, should a society bend for an individual or should individual bend to fit in a society?

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u/Impressive_Ice6970 9d ago

This is way too intelligent for modern discourse! 😅😉🤗

Excellent point!

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u/HeKis4 8d ago

Nah, it's just too left-wing. It's based off the idea of social contract which the far right doesn't like because the right in general is very attached to the idea of unrestricted personal freedoms and preserving a more "organic" state closer to the law of nature, and the social contract is, well, saying we should do the opposite actually.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract

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u/MotherofBook 10d ago

Which gets to the core of it all.

Most people don’t want to actually solve homelessness, drug problems or crack down on crime. They just want it to go away.

In reality. The way we fix these issues is by fixing the system that makes it possible to begin with.

  • Universal Health Care: People won’t be going into debt because they got sick. People will have access to affordable pain relief, therapy and medication.

-Affordable Housing: Prevent companies from hoarding properties and jacking up prices. People should have to spend 2/3 of their monthly income of a roof over their head. One accident and they are on the streets.

-Cap Cost of living: Very simplified but for this point - CEOs shouldn’t be making Millions in a week and their lowest employees barely making a dime. I think CEOs shouldn’t be making more than 20-50% more than their lowest worker.

That would ensure people can afford to actually live

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u/clubby37 9d ago

I think CEOs shouldn’t be making more than 20-50% more than their lowest worker.

We need to find the Greedy Fuck Threshold.

If you set no limits, you have today's ever-decaying proto-hellscape.

If you set limits that are too tight, people will be too highly incentivized to work around them. Every system has weak points; the true art is balancing pressures such that the weak points never get stressed beyond capacity.

Greedy people are gonna get more. If the system doesn't allow it, they'll break the system. Based on nothing but my own stupid intuition, 1.5x won't cut it, and anything over 10x seems surplus to requirements. Not sure where the golden number is exactly, but if I found out that a pediatric oncologist made 10x as much as a carpenter, I'd probably tolerate it, and honestly, I'd be fine with 3x -- elegant coffee tables are great, but cancer-free children are better. If I were a greedy fuck, and I found out I could only make 10x as much as my janitors, I'd probably make a subreddit and bitch about it, but not do anything to jeopardize the 10x I'm already getting.

The Greedy Fuck Threshold is where the rich are just barely rich enough that it isn't worth risking what they already have to get more. We need to find it, and set taxes and minimum wages accordingly.

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u/Sheraby 9d ago

I think CEOs shouldn’t be making more than 20-50% more than their lowest worker.

Before CEO pay really took off, heads of companies were making somewhere around 20-25x (times, not percent) more than their lowest paid worker. And the lowest paid workers were paid better at that point. So I don't think your suggestion makes sense.

But leaving specifics out of it, the whole economic system in this country needs deep reform, with foremost attention to living wages and minimum standards of living, as well as reining in what is known as the ‘wealth pump’ that redistributes wealth from the poor to the rich, which has been in full swing since at least the late 1970s.

Edit: word

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u/clubby37 10d ago

This is such an important point. Desperation and crime are very closely correlated, because there's a causal relationship. I remember years ago, I was going through a very rough time, couldn't even afford a phone, and was behind on other bills. I was walking down a dark street in a questionable neighbourhood. I passed a well-dressed lady who was doing a piss poor job of protecting her purse. We were alone on that sidewalk. I really thought about it, man. For half a second, I thought I might actually do it. She was carrying at least a month's peace of mind in that undefended purse.

We like to punish people with discomfort for misbehaviour, but don't like to acknowledge that discomfort promotes misbehaviour. Meeting people's needs before they've done something to earn it can seem like rewarding people who don't deserve it, but I think it's crazy to see that as worse than creating criminals where there otherwise wouldn't be any.

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u/Plutonicuss 9d ago

In this world where there are trillionaires and where 1/3 of all food produced goes to landfills, it doesn’t make sense to not meet everyone’s basic needs.

It sometimes feels like they want people to live in fear and to have people to demonize for losing the imagined game of meritocracy, to tell middle class people “if you don’t get a good enough job, you’ll end up like this.” It feels so medieval that this is still a problem.

I can’t see a downside for some form of UBI. I don’t think everyone would suddenly become lazy freeloaders who sit around all day. Think about all those retired folks puttering around trying to stay busy 24/7 still.

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u/okhi2u 9d ago

It feels like it because it's true!

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u/Curious-Author-3140 9d ago

Being without secure housing and protection from violence and the elements is inevitably going to lead to mental and emotional instability. Throw in food insecurity, and the base of the human needs pyramid literally doesn’t exist. This is simple, biology. Human beings can’t function, much less effectively achieve their potential without it.

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u/puppy-paw-print 10d ago

Depending on the country, prison may be much worse

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u/Spiritual_Lie2563 9d ago

Depending on the part of the country, even as little as "you'll be guaranteed to eat something every day, you'll get your health checked out for free, and have a nice warm bed to not freeze to death" is much better than even a minimum wage job.

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u/Warmbly85 9d ago

It’s worse than that. It can depend on the agency the cop belongs to.

Arrested by the sheriff? Going to county with murders and rapist serving their sentence.

Arrested by the town cops? Going to the local station where it can be a locked conference room or a 5X5 they’ve been using since the building was opened in the ‘20s

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u/Spiritual_Lie2563 9d ago

Even then, the simple facts of "you'll have a roof over your head and something to eat every day plus free healthcare" would make even being locked up with murderers and rapists be the same as living like a king to a homeless person.

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u/Sheraby 9d ago

It sure sounds like you're not speaking from experience.

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u/Curious-Author-3140 9d ago

Where is that?

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u/Spiritual_Lie2563 9d ago

Anywhere that gets cold in the winter.

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u/Sheraby 9d ago

You have an extremely naive view of what a US (I assume) prison (or jail) is. It's not free room and board. Almost everywhere they are designed to be dehumanizing and punitive. And once you enter the criminal justice system, it can drag you down for the rest of your life.

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u/Spideris 10d ago

Who said anything about being taken alive?

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u/nightfall2021 9d ago

And with this statement here we see why the primary driver of crime is poverty.

Gangs, drugs, theft, organized crime, violence... Virtually all crime has its origins in poverty.

We will not see a significant impact on crime and the homeless problem until we tackle poverty

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u/Witty_Replacement969 9d ago

I thought about it, but that would break my own moral code: Do not harm others unless given no choice. I would not harm another human being unless I was being physically attacked and needed to survive the encounter. I learned some self-defence from various places.

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u/KonigSteve 9d ago

Personally I don't think stealing from a billion dollar organization harms another human as it would only directly affect the billionaire who owns it's bottom line and he wouldn't see one iota of difference in day to day life.

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u/Amethyst-Flare 9d ago

I certainly don't plan to go around judging your choices in a harsh survival situation. Good luck out there.

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u/Leozilla 9d ago

Bro, you want to die, go steal from Walmart, or whatever Canada's equivalent is, and chill in prison till your shit hole country gives you the death you seek.

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u/Sheraby 9d ago

I am so sorry that you are in this situation. The fact that Canada is letting people go through the MAID system rather than caring for them is terrifying and infuriating. I read the story about the person who couldn't get housing that accommodated their disability and made the choice you're making.

I have been unhoused myself in the past, but in the States; your observations about unhoused people and about the systems that keep the poor down ring true to me. I have felt just like you, that if all I am is an unwanted burden, I'd rather not be here. But I got lucky. Luck is all it was, and I knew people who never found some. I just want to say that you deserve better. You are trying your best and doing everything that anyone should ask of you.

You deserve secure housing, healthy food and clean water, clean clothes and everything else you need to be comfortable. You deserve medical care for your seizures. You should be able to finish school. It makes me so angry that you are in this situation and that we all live in a world in which some of us don't have these things. There's no good reason for it.

I really, really hope that you find a way to make a different choice. I hope you can find support and access to other resources. Your life has value. You have value. I know a stranger's hopes feel pretty meaningless, but I believe that there are people out there who could help and are in range of you, if only your paths could cross. I hope you keep looking.

And I really hope that you keep posting about your circumstances. There's one internet stranger who will be watching for updates. Best of luck to you, new friend. 🧡

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u/inurbs 10d ago

If no one else will say it, get off the list. The state’s attempt to coerce you into death may be tempting but it does not have to be one you cave to. It is not a truly free choice, even if it feels like one. The other commenter is right, there is crime, there is prison, there is acceptance of suffering, there is everything but choosing an infinite solution to a finite problem. You are worthy of being alive, of feeling anything up to and including pain, even if the world says you aren’t. Please, don’t be a willing victim of the culture of death.

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u/StormMaleficent6337 10d ago

Hmm, not sure about this

I have never been to prison, but I would rather be dead than there, from what many people have told me

Maybe prison in Norway or Finland, that’s basically it

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u/yewdryad 10d ago

Ontario?

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u/Witty_Replacement969 9d ago

Province of the obtuse, yes. Ford cut OSAP, and housing is still $1000/bedroom in a non-RTA protected situation if the landlord lives there and shares the kitchen and bathroom. Thousand of other people also came, from all over this country and the world, as the local post-secondary institutions increased the numbers by 10,000 on average (4 schools in the area) and I have seen bedrooms (being called studios sometimes) going for $1400.

There are no jobs left that would allow me to go to school. I hold several certificates, awards, and have great references from years of landlords and employment, and no LTB issues. 🤷‍♀️

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u/yewdryad 9d ago

I left 20 years ago

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u/Witty_Replacement969 9d ago

I wish I had! 

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u/yewdryad 9d ago

Are you locked in there? Have you thought about alternative living scenarios? Ive been living in vehicles, tents, wilderness areas- just built a yurt and am living on someones property in a small town now. Whenever i wasnt sure where to go/what to do I would reach out to local organic farmers and arrange some kind of work exchange. Then i get to do meaningful work (grow food) live close to the land, and be far away from people. It usually turns into a good networking opportunity, meeting other people with land and work. Theres lots of rural work.

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u/Witty_Replacement969 9d ago

That is basically what I'm doing. I exchange farm work/AirBnB cleaning for a place to park.

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u/Dd_8630 9d ago

a LL after sex

What does this part mean?

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u/Witty_Replacement969 9d ago

A landlord wanted sex from me to stay at his place after paying the agreed amount.

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u/Dd_8630 9d ago

Aaah I see. Jesus that's fucked up.

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u/Lurch2Life 9d ago

Don’t kill yourself, my friend. Live to spite them. Fuck them and their suggestion that it would be better for everyone if you died. FUCK THAT.

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u/VamipresDontDoDishes 10d ago

I am sorry to hear about your situation. May I ask what country is it?

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u/deltaroo 10d ago

Don’t give up hope that you can make an incredibly positive and meaningful impact. Our world is in desperate need of more heroes like Luigi.

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u/ManOf1000Usernames 9d ago

If you are going to be this level of working poor, you need to pack up and move to praries or maritimes (basically anywhere but metro canada) because you will likely make the same yet have much lower CoL.

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u/InAJar112 9d ago

Don’t give in and do the MAID shit. That’s what they want you to do. Stay alive

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u/Leozilla 9d ago

I was told Canada had free health care.

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u/Witty_Replacement969 9d ago

That is untrue for long term mental health treatment, diabetic supplies, crutches, CPAP machines, tests or vaccines not considered mandatory, vision care, dental care, .... I could continue to go on. Life-saving treatment is covered. Seeing a doctor is covered. Filling out forms for the government to reject is not.

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u/FluffyCelery4769 9d ago

Fuck society man.

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u/Prcrstntr 9d ago

At least the Canadian government has a very progressive solution for homelessness: MAID

Society is a joke. Pull a Luigi on your way out at least.

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u/parrote3 9d ago

I don’t know what you do for work now, but try to find an industrial job. I work in a lumber mill granted in the US. Started on cleanup making 16.50, have worked hard and made my way into maintenance and make 29 an hour with a cap of 38 now. Usually it’s a fuck load of hours so you’ll be making overtime and maybe half of your day will be spent at work so a bad living situation may not be thought about so much. Industrial environments are almost always hiring and have many positions even for people with 0 experience in their industries.

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u/Critical_Concert_689 9d ago

The country is Canada

waiting for medically assisted death

Anytime I point out Canada drives low income and homeless to the MAID program they get indignant - like that would never happen in "MY" country-type responses...

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u/saxomoph0ne 9d ago

I don’t know you, I don’t know your situation, but if it means anything, things can’t improve for you if you’re not here.

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u/junoduck44 9d ago

Rape happens in these encampments/cities too. Don't pretend it's a bunch of homeless people looking out for each other. Theft, rape, assault, all of this happens in these camps. Maybe you find some people who will look out for you, maybe you don't. But pretending these homeless encampments are safe is insane.

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u/Witty_Replacement969 9d ago

They aren't safe, but sonetimes that is why some people are there.

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u/junoduck44 9d ago

Most of the time homeless people are in encampments because they can trade with other homeless people. Engage in the "black market" so to speak. Most cities/towns have plenty of homeless shelters where, even if you can't stay there all day, will help you with meals or clothes or some basic healthcare. But they require a basic level of behavior from the people there, and many homeless will simply not abide. They act out, or they're on drugs, or they are hostile or aggressive etc. No such rules exist in encampments/homeless cities.

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u/Sheraby 9d ago

I feel like you're jumping to conclusions. I don't think they were implying that all camps are safe in all situations. They were making the point that sleeping alone is also a vulnerable situation. If you do have a crew, as you say, it can make a difference wherever you are. In any case, they weren't 'pretending' anything and there's no cause to call someone insane, ever. At best it's an insult and at worst it's an ableist slur.

I speak from experience, both as an unhoused person and as a volunteer support worker. From your other comments here, it sounds like you've had experience as a volunteer too. I don't know how long ago, or where you were. While many cities have shelters, it's not uncommon for there to not be enough beds, supervision, and funding. That was true for me almost 20 years ago and my sense is that it's worse today. In the worst cases, shelters are just a different set of risks.

It also sounds like we came away with different impressions of who homeless people are. Yes, untreated or entrenched mental illness is a serious problem, as is addiction. But people with these challenges are not the only ones struggling. Almost anyone who has been unhoused needs counseling just because of the experience itself, but that does not mean their situation is intractable.

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u/PA-MMJ-Educator 10d ago

Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem, excluding cases of terminal illness. You were in your third year of a microbiology degree, and your situation changed dramatically, which is evidence that your situation could change again. I don’t mean to minimize your situation or struggle, and obviously I don’t know anything about you other than what you shared. However, I’ve read of others who had been unhoused and something happened that allowed them to re-establish themselves. I can’t say what that might look like in your life, but I’m certain it won’t happen after your life is ended.

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u/Shilo788 10d ago

We had a tent area near town in a spot you couldn't see them well, they didn't really trash it and it was there for years, yet this year they cleared it out. Now you see tents here and there up and down the river , but now so spread out they can't keep and eye on them and make sure they are trashing the area. I say give them a flat spot with dumpster and porta potty and leave them be until they cause trouble then arrest the troublemakers.

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u/rain_upahead 10d ago

This is what they have in my city. There's an established gated tent city with portapottys, garbages, and safe injection site. Some safety rules like no BBQs/fires etc. The city recently invested in a ton of tents for the folks. It's really good for the people who have trouble defending themselves on the street for example women and disabled are highly victimized

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u/schrodingers_bra 10d ago

But if they allow drug use which i assume they do if they have a safe injection site, how do they prevent victimization of the vulnerable and things like fires.

I'm assuming when people are under the influence they don't think clearly enough to follow rules like don't start fires and don't commit crimes. How are these rules enforced?

We have similar gated homeless communities where I'm at but no drug use is one of the requirements to being able to stay there.

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u/melodicprophet 9d ago

You have a point but you’d be surprised how well behaved most addicts are who have a steady supply.

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u/schrodingers_bra 9d ago

But do they have a steady supply? It's just a needle exchange, not a drug store. If they have the money for a steady supply i suspect some vulnerable people are being victimized to get that cash.

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u/melodicprophet 9d ago

Fair. Just addressing the part about them not “being in their right mind.” Most of the problems such as crime and violence will come up due to scarcity. I’d generally agree that no drug use would be a good ideal to strive for, although I’m not sure if it’s realistic if we want to help as many people as we can.

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u/puppy-paw-print 10d ago

An actual gasp practical solution. I can’t imagine an elected official successfully advocating for This without losing their job.

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u/HappyCamper2121 10d ago

I know right! Even the Romans had bath houses.

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u/schrodingers_bra 10d ago

Well you wouldn't want to be the person who owns a house next to the place they build the tent city is why.

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u/bannedbooks123 10d ago

Shit on the street is a public health hazard, though.

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u/jimthesquirrelking 9d ago

Publicly accessible maintained bathrooms help prevent this

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u/IBetYr2DadsRStraight 9d ago edited 9d ago

I like to sit in a park near my house. About 500 feet away, there’s a public restroom. It’s not always the cleanest, but it’s enclosed and the toilet, urinal, and sink regularly work just fine. I still commonly see men come into the park to pee on a tree.

Some people just suck.

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u/senderoluminado 9d ago

The park I go to here in Los Angeles has a nice set of soccer fields, which is only about 500 feet or so from a decent set of public bathrooms (one time the urinal got smashed up and it only took the city a couple of days to fix it) and there are port a potties.

There is also a tree and damn if it hasn't collected some international piss when it's dark during rec soccer nights. Arabs, Africans, Brits, Persians, Russians, Ukrainians, Mexicans, Salvadorans, Narnians, all manner of Americans, they all piss on that tree.

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u/StarrySkiesNY 9d ago

And they're all MEN pissing on the tree.

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u/bannedbooks123 9d ago

As long as people aren't shooting up heroine in them and leaving their dirty needles around that you couldn't pay someone enough to clean up. Speaking of, heroine needles are another health hazard

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u/sometimes_sydney 9d ago

They literally do pay people to clean them up.

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u/jimthesquirrelking 9d ago

There are sharps boxes that are mass produced and easy to leave in these restrooms. You can throw as many "but what about this dirty thing or that gross thing!" As you like but at a certain point its cheaper to accommodate these needs than criminalize them and incarcerate  them. Unless of course you make money off slave, I mean prisoner labor... (Edit) also you're very uninformed if you think no one can be hired to clean up needles, people often clean worse, you just need proper ppe 

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u/bannedbooks123 9d ago edited 9d ago

I also want to add that I knew someone who was a drug abuse counselor who had once been addicted to meth and living on the streets. He said getting arrested saved his life because it forced him to get sober. While he was in prison, his gf who was also homeless and addicted to drugs died of an overdose.

I went to his 4 year sobriety party where his mother broke down and cried, saying that she was relieved when he got arrested because she lost so many nights of sleep thinking of him on the streets and what might happen. She also couldn't do anything about it because he was an adult. She was so proud of who he became after. At least while he was in prison, he was alive and she knew where he was.

So, prison may not be the worst thing to happen to someone.

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u/Curious-Author-3140 9d ago

Yes, the blessing to have help that restored the chance for a healthy fulfilling life! Our ability to successfully help those with so many of the life threatening illnesses that, not just the victim, but our communities struggle with has improved exponentially! Tech advances especially have been instrumental in ability to quantify the effectiveness of the science in real time. The value to his community and to the economy they bring back is much greater than the current costs of care, in taxed income alone, but in other measurable metrics as well.

We should make the investment, I can’t argue with the data, we know that. I just feel that in this challenging economy, with the national debt at breaking levels, it is fiscally imperative that we consider how much higher the cost of intervention in acute stages has than providing the basic services to prevent and mitigate the condition in the first place! Look up the statistical data and analysis of fiscal implications..

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u/melodicprophet 9d ago

While this is certainly true in many cases, the problem for society at large is the cost. I don’t have the exact numbers at my disposal, but the cost of “housing” an incarcerated citizen is north of $40k annually. Even if you were to willfully house these people at the median rent, it would cost less than half of that. And we know median rent is way too high. Low-cost housing should be significantly less than that. So even simply legislating a little compassion still comes out well ahead of for I g addicts to dry out in jail cells.

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u/HeadsAllEmpty57 9d ago

If you consider rent to be the only cost involved with housing that might be true.

I bet maintenance, social services, mental health services, and other benefits(food, utilities, insurance etc. are not free) after 3-5 years pushes that number past or equal to 40k per person annually. Many on-the-street homeless are not mentally well or deeply addicted to drugs, mentally unwell and drug addicted people do not care for their surroundings especially if it's "free" it will be trashed into unlivable quicker then you can build more. Then once they get the housing, you're also going to have to provide services to help the people's situations like drug & serious mental health therapy that will only work for a small fraction of the people.

I'm not saying that the cost wouldn't be worth it, it very well might be, but you can't just compare low-cost housing rent prices with the whole cost of a person's prison stay(salaries, food, services) and say it's cheaper.

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u/melodicprophet 9d ago

I don’t see why you wouldn’t expose the ridiculous overhead in imprisoning a person who lacks a house when trying to emphasize this point. The cost of a homeless person (disease, emergency rooms, crime, rehabs, addiction, theft, etc.) being free to live on the street is estimated to being similar to putting them in jail.

While the costs of a solution may be difficult to project, we do have a good idea of how much it would cost to house the homeless. We have a good idea how much it costs taxpayers to neglect the problem. We have a strong understanding of why people are homeless. We know beyond housing subsidies, Medicaid, and SNAP how much the American government spends on so-called anti-poverty programs already - which in almost every case is more or less just handing out money.

There is no perfect solution, but neglect is well beyond cruel - it’s financially devastating.

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u/jimthesquirrelking 9d ago

Survivorship bias, our prison system is not healthy or healing. People like that are exceptions not the general rule 

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u/bannedbooks123 9d ago edited 9d ago

I'd rather be alive in prison than dead on the street. But, my friend doing so well prob had a lot to do with the fact that he had a nice family who loved him. Families are important.

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u/bannedbooks123 9d ago

I just think it's naive to think people are going to do what they're supposed to do. Do you think they'll really use those boxes or care, especially when they're strung out?

I don't know what the answer is but letting people live on the streets isn't good for anyone, especially for the people who live on the street. It's not safe on the streets and addiction/ homelessness will kill you eventually.

There's a difference between compassion and enabling. By making it easy to live on the streets, you're enabling. A lot of them don't want housing in their current mental state, and if you gave it to them, they would abuse it and probably not even use it.

They like the "freedom" but it comes at a cost to everyone, especially themselves. Homeless are most likely to be raped, robbed, murdered, overdose, die from the elements, etc etc. They're also a danger to innocent bystanders if they happen to be the psychotic type.

Somehow, we have to get them off the streets and not incentivize them to stay on streets by making it so easy/appealing.

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u/1127_and_Im_tired 9d ago

They tried that in Seattle and other places in the PNW. It turned into a shitshow. Needles everywhere, drugged up people all over the place, crime went up, et. They had to pass new laws to recriminalize drug use.

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u/jimthesquirrelking 9d ago

They also tried it in Portugal and it went amazingly. The problem is the American system cares nothing for poor individual people inside it. European culture isn't perfect but its much better than American 

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u/LeagueMoney9561 9d ago

If I was paid enough, I wouldn’t mind cleaning up needles if I had proper equipment and ppe.

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u/bannedbooks123 9d ago

If it's a city job, it's not going to pay enough.

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u/Curious-Author-3140 9d ago

Better to have them sh..ing themselves on the sidewalk? It is time for us to stop pretending we don’t know the solutions or are incapable of applying them. If we really are that incompetent all we have to do is look to other countries that have successfully provided for the needs of their populations, even those that find themselves in need of intervention to function in society despite the robust structure of services and assistance available equilaterally to each member of the community .

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u/Sphinxofblackkwarts 10d ago

People aren't homeless out of laziness as a rule. People are homeless because we have set up our economic and social systems to produce them.

My city has many abandoned buildings which we could simply GIVE to homeless people with a modest investment to make the buildings livable and we would rather they rot in neglect.

But it makes people uncomfortable to realize that if you have 2 bad months you will wind up homeless.

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u/Zyhara 10d ago

I wish it were that simple, bc it IS a great solution, however, then insurances get involved bc they have to insure those places. Someone pays that bill.. owners, tax payers, someone. Say we get a work around, maybe an exemption from insurance. Then someone does something stupid, lights a fire, kills someone, or just has an accident. Then you have activists protesting, public shaming, or worse… the inevitable lawsuit, potentially from the family that didn’t give a shit when there wasn’t money involved. So a great idea avalanches into a shitshow… and someone, even a person with the best intentions is left holding the bag, possibly ruined and feeling like a shit bag for not doing enough or preventing the bad thing.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions!

I feel the solution is in this option somewhere. So maybe as a society we can expound on this notion and come up with something. The unfortunate problem is the people with the most money and the loudest voices (some politicians, actors, the top 10% of the world) don’t actually give a shit. They just want us to think they do.

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u/HappyCamper2121 10d ago

I agree the solution might be in there somewhere. Not in hotels being run as hotels, but I wonder if we couldn't turn hotels into pod hotels, like they have in Asia. Lots of people live full time in those. It's not great, but it's better than a lot of other situations. We could house a lot more people at once. Woukd also need more staff, with people focused keeping peace and order.

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u/Few-Pineapple-5632 10d ago

https://www.opportunitynowsv.org/blog/sf-hotels-that-took-part-in-citys-interim-housing-schemes-got-trashed-still-closed-awaiting-millions-in-repairs

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u/Gold4Lokos4Breakfast 10d ago

Yeah I get this is reddit, but 99% of things you give to homeless people will be destroyed in short order. Most of these people are drug addicts with severe mental health problems

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u/Few-Pineapple-5632 10d ago

My point exactly. They renovate a hotel for homeless housing and it gets destroyed. Then it closes. Then everyone bitches because there is no housing for the homeless.

Rinse and repeat

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u/Ok_Chef_4850 10d ago

It’s hard to treat mental illness and addiction when there are such limited resources in a community. “We’ve tried nothing, and we’re all out of ideas” is sort of the sentiment you get from communities. Homelessness is a symptom of a larger disease (poverty, poor mental healthcare, poor community resources).

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u/GivesCredit 9d ago

Someone very close to me works with addiction and psychology in homeless (provided free therapy as well). Seriously one of the nicest and most empathetic people I know. She managed 2 years of being sexually harassed and bothered before she got out. Now she’s doing a PhD instead but how can you blame her for not wanting to continue down that path. She went in solely to help people as the pay was horrible even with her masters

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u/adropofreason 10d ago

But we haven't tried nothing. We've spent huge amounts of money trying things. How much trying is owed before accepting that you can't help people who don't want to be helped?

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u/Ok_Chef_4850 9d ago

Trying is never owed. But I don’t think people understand the depth of homelessness care that is needed. For a regular addict (that isn’t homeless) you see things like rehab and continued therapy to make sure they don’t relapse. The homeless don’t get those resources. They get 5 days detox (maybe) and then back to being homeless, follow up care of you go to this place and get on a waiting list and we also need an address on file to fill these prescriptions oh you don’t have an address can’t do it sorry.

Need an ID for a job, but need an address for that, need an address for job too or else you’re waiting weeks from community resources.

While yes there IS a process in place for all these things, it’s severely underfunded for the quantity of homeless that need care because it’s not a priority.

Take into account that these things can be generational. And getting a ticket for occupying a sidewalk means you have a desk appearance that one has to pay money for (money they don’t have), so it’s either jail and right back to homelessness or having a warrant.

Criminalizing homelessness does. Not. Fix. Homelessness.

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u/adropofreason 9d ago

That's sort of my point. Criminalizing homelessness isn't meant to fix homelessness. It's meant to protect the rest of society against an element that has become dangerous and destructive. People are all for helping, but helping has to include a safe environment for everyone else, too. How many times do you expect people and their children to dodge human feces and used needles in their neighborhood before the will to help vanishes?

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u/pseudoeponymous_rex 10d ago

Most homeless people are neither drug addicts nor have serious mental health problems.

Unfortunately, it doesn’t take many of the ones who do to destroy something.

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u/moderngalatea 9d ago

....that is categorically false. Poor mental health is a MAJOR factor in homelessness, so is trauma and being involved in the foster system (which comes with its own struggles and trauma).

I have met VERY FEW homeless people who were completely lucid, healthy in the mind, and it's usually only the ones who were transient by choice.

While its true that lack of a socioeconomic net contributes to homelessness, a LOT of it has to do with the fact that the individual themselves has experienced something terrible and has no social supports (family, friends, etc) to help them navigate it.

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u/Gold4Lokos4Breakfast 9d ago edited 9d ago

Nah they have serious problems. My ex became a drug addict and was destroying my house. Now she’s homeless. She wanted to move back in with her family, but they smartly decided they wouldn’t take her either. They’re trying to get her some mental help though

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u/MarkHaversham 10d ago

Being unemployed is a crime, but also if wages start increasing the government kills jobs to increase unemployment.

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u/Genghoul100 10d ago

The vast majority of homeless are not homeless because of economics, but because of drug use or mental illness.

If you give these people a building to live in, they are not going to work on it, they will do the exact opposite and burn it down.

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u/leathakkor 9d ago

That's actually maybe not quite true, But also it is. The vast majority of people that are homeless for under 2 months are because of economic issues.

The people that are homeless for more than 2 months almost exclusively Not because of economic issues.

I dated a social worker for a while. There are two very distinct types of homeless people. And there are a lot of people that are homeless for under 2 months. Maybe the most people. But they don't usually stay homeless for long because they do know how to work the system. They don't have extreme drug or mental health issues and they can get and rely on services and family and friends to get out of the situation.

The people that are homeless long-term have exhausted all of the resources with their friends and family because they refuse to get help (continue using drugs or don't want to take their medication). And are too mentally not with it to be able to work the system appropriately. Or to stay in housing That's government assisted.

I think that's one of the tricky things about the whole situation Is that we talk about "the homeless". When the reality is that there are at least two huge different groups of homeless people. And usually there's a lot of nuance and trickiness to the whole situation.

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u/Ok_Chef_4850 10d ago

Then shouldn’t communities divert money away from passing anti-homeless initiatives and spend it on actual mental health care & addiction treatment centers?

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u/funnyname5674 9d ago

Those are very long term things though. The part of addiction treatment that is the start, the physically stopping drugs can be instant but the mental and some of the physical parts of addiction are life long. And mental health treatment is absolutely necessary but again, it's not like TV. You don't just talk to someone for an hour, they know exactly what's wrong with you and what meds you need to take and if you take them, a month later you're a completely normal person. It can take years to get even close to a correct diagnosis and psych meds are prescribed trial and error style until you find something that maybe works. Or maybe you never do. Even if you find the magic bullet, you don't suddenly become normal. Our short term focus has to be getting these people indoors. A private place to shit is the most basic of human dignities

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u/Ok_Chef_4850 9d ago

I wholeheartedly agree

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u/Genghoul100 9d ago

Maybe, but how many of these people want help? I'd say the ones that want help are already getting it. Some people just want to get high all day.

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u/Ok_Chef_4850 9d ago

Very few addicts actually want to be addicted. They are aware of their situation, are ashamed of it, but can’t afford care and don’t have support. So how do you dull that emotional pain? By continuing to use.

Substance abuse isn’t for funsies. It’s to not face reality because reality hurts. They need mental healthcare.

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u/JibberJim 9d ago

The vast majority of people sleeping outside, even in a tent perhaps, but remember there are also homeless who are sleeping on friends couches etc. and those do tend to be economic, and one of the problems is that that economic descent does lead to drug use, which then loses you the friends and you're on the street.

The US seems to have a higher proportion of rough sleepers as homeless than other countries (likely because government temporary accommodation support is less) but rough sleepers are still not the majority.

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u/MikeWise1618 10d ago

Evidence? Sounds like a convenient belief to me.

There is no reason to believe drug use or mental illness is increasing. Market failures amid rising income inequality seem more likely.

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u/Genghoul100 9d ago

Walk down an LA street and tell me these people are clean and sane, but just need a job.

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u/jedledbetter 10d ago

A lot homeless people are homeless by choice or they have burned every bridge that could help them.

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u/No-Surprise-9790 10d ago

Those abandoned buildings will shortly end up overflowing with literal shit, piss, and all manner of used drug paraphernalia.

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u/willydillydoo 9d ago

Which it absolutely does. The easier you make it to be homeless, the more it’s going to be an issue. It’s a harsh reality a lot of people don’t like to admit.

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u/goog1e 10d ago edited 10d ago

People assume all shelter and temporary space is full, all vouchers are in use, all rehabs and mental health programs constantly on a waitlist. But that's not accurate.

The mayor of DC has repeatedly said this month- there is space for people to come inside, the shelters are not full. And urged them to get off the streets and come get help. DC has not had to turn someone away for lack of beds since August 8. Not one person. And 180 new beds are coming online next month.

When I sometimes called around to shelters for clients in Baltimore, it was rare to not get someone a spot within 2 days. If we started calling early, it was rare not to find a spot that first day.

As long as there are visible homeless people, we assume something is not being done and there's an unmet need. But that's just an assumption. People would actually come to my old work asking why we weren't doing anything for this person or that person, and be surprised to learn that the person is already fully engaged in services. We just didn't, as part of those services, force people to dress "normal" or get off the street. People are free to live their lives as long as they aren't an immediate danger to self or others, and that disturbs a LOT of people on both sides.

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u/Conscious-Strawberry 10d ago

"Literally disperse" to where?

A tent community got busted up in my local area not too long ago. For years after that, it wasn't uncommon for me to find unhoused folks IN MY YARD. One of them broke into the stairwell of our apartment building. Do you know how scary it is to be flying out the door to get to work, just to find a sleeping unhoused person in your stairwell behind a door that's supposed to be locked?

So you've done a good job explaining why these laws are made (eyesore, unsafe conditions, etc). But you really haven't answered OPs question at all of where are they supposed to go after they "disperse"?

And when folks make these laws without giving these humans a place to go, conditions can become much less safe. I can avoid a tent city. A sleeping homeless man who broke into my apartment building bc he had no where else to go when that tent city was broken up? Harder to avoid.

And no, my story is not some one-off thing. Many others who live near tent cities that were broken up have had similar experiences

These people need somewhere to go and sleep at night, just like you and me. That's why I support affordable housing laws and local support programs for the chronically homeless folks

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u/MissDisplaced 10d ago

No one is answering because there is no answer. At the highest levels of government, they never answer where homeless people (who aren’t, say mentally ill or criminals) should go. There is no actual resource for that.

The US had this problem during the Great Depression and the answer was the WPA for public works (how lots of bridges and roads and national parks got built), or the military.

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u/theoneandonly6558 10d ago

That was the eventually solution but many camps sprung up during the Great Depression and many were cleared, burned, destroyed, etc multiple times. I had a great aunt and uncle who lived in a tent during the Great Depression. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooverville

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u/MissDisplaced 10d ago

My grandparents were super poor but weren’t homeless, but they did work for the WPA off and on. Lots of public works infrastructure projects. I think the younger men got housing and pay provided. Lots of federal money spent on infrastructure instead of military (US didn’t have a big military in the early 30s, that only ramped up later). Of course a lot of that eventually did turn to military supply type jobs as we saw a war was coming.

An interesting time.

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u/pikashroom 10d ago

There is no answer from this administration (or any others) but there is clearly a solution. Not a fool proof one, just the first couple of steps.

Fund social programs that help homeless get housing and jobs and maybe medication and put them back on a track to living a good life.

When I was in the mental ward, quite a few of those people didn’t have housing. There’s a vicious cycle between mental illness and not living a life worth living. And Substance Abuse Disorder is a mental illness. These people need assistance. And when we have this infrastructure in place, we could build shelters with police preventing crime for the people who don’t want assistance

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u/lizerlfunk 10d ago

My late husband was a mental health technician at a Baker Act receiving facility from 2006-2007. (Baker Act = the law in Florida permitting involuntary hospitalization for people whose mental health is making them a danger to themselves or others.) He saw the same unhoused people over and over and over again. They’d get arrested, get Baker Acted, held for 72 hours, get back on their meds, be stable, be released once the 72 hours was up, and they don’t have anywhere to go or any way of staying on their meds. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Maybe if they had help with achieving a stable living situation it would be easier to break the cycle.

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u/MissDisplaced 10d ago

I had an uncle who was mentally unwell and he ended up in a halfway house (not sure if they still have those). It seems these resources are shrinking.

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u/MikeWise1618 10d ago

Not only would the cost be immense, but it doesn't tackle the root cause, which is probably rising income inequality. So no matter how much money you throw at it, it would eventually not be enough.

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u/MissDisplaced 9d ago

The only thing I could see are some sort of dormitory style temporary housing, combined with job training and social programs designed to get people back into regular apartments and jobs.

But you’re right it looks bleak, as income inequality keeps rising plus those programs get cut. And what do you do with people too sick to work?

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u/TJeffersonsBlackKid 9d ago

There’s a thousand reasons so there’s probably a thousand answers.

Income inequality, drug epidemic, out of control rent prices, overcrowded prisons that lead to criminals being free days after being incarcerated. Each of these have a hundred sub-reasons.

Ending the war on drugs, rent control, limiting private ownership of habitation properties, ending foreign purchasing of homes and apartments, banning AirBNB, ending for profit prisons.

But if we do this there’s some billionaires who might loose money so of course there’s no chance of any of these ever being addressed.

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u/adminssoftascharmin 9d ago

Build facilities to keep the feral homeless people in. There are many homeless that really are no issue and aren't even an "eyesore" in the world, they just exist and have always and always will. Shit hollywood even chacterizes these people and theyre part of americana.

But the feral homeless that are a threat? They need to be put in facilities once they break the law. And they can't leave until deemed fit. And these facilities are compassionate - they get their DOC in small amounts. Ideally transfer to MAT. They have counselors, therapists, etc.

We already do this for prison facilities. We're already paying taxes for lifers in exorbitant amounts. If they want to spend the rest of their life in the facilities they can do that. If they refuse and get violent and can't follow rules after enough strikes it's straight to prison for you.

New prisons pop up all the time - for fucks' sake just try ONE of these facility centers for feral humans.

Ideally we'll start to see them want to be fit and transfer out. Not even to never be homeless again, just understand they can't be fucking feral humans leeching off society city centers.

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u/RandeKnight 9d ago

Where 'regular' people don't go.

So under bridges, the ends of alleys, any forested areas where they can't easily be seen. Abandoned buildings are popular.

So places that aren't inner cities or suburbs.

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u/Original-Rush139 9d ago

Everyone forgets that no one will bother you in the national parks. If you don’t want to be part of society, you can leave. But, then society won’t coddle you. 

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u/y2ksosrs 10d ago

You are making your own case against homelessness. It is scary and poses a danger to society. While homelessness isn't a problem if the tents are in front of someone ELSES property, if they wind up in your yard or stairwell its an issue. Do you see the irony? The tent cities are next to someone else's house, just like yours.

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u/Strong_Landscape_333 10d ago

A lot of them are just in the woods out of sight in NC. They get busted up because of the amount of trash, drugs, stolen property and crime going on

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u/Illustrious-Okra-524 10d ago

I’m not sure you read that comment correctly 

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u/Shilo788 10d ago

I rather the homeless drunk than the condos they built in the woods this guy tented in. The first week the first group of condos opened the cops were there twice. I sold my farm cause people were constantly trespassing to mess with my old horse and I hated seeing the deer trying to live on what was left. They surrounded my property and three other homes on two sides . And it was so corrupt. They got approval to build by paying off the town government to increase density from two acres per unit to 12 units per acre. Despite petitions and filled town halls. The same good old boys would change parties so they won either way . People in town just could not get enough effort to just a group that had controlled the town for decades.

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u/Longjumping-Buy1162 10d ago

Maybe. A lot of the tent cities are in areas far away from retail businesses and even industrial and business areas. Most homeless people I see in groups have tried to find places away from those areas because they know they’re going to get harassed by the cops if they don’t. Not all, by any means. I lived in San Francisco 15 years and am very familiar with the Tenderloin area and other homeless stalwart gathering areas. Still, a greater number of them were in outlying areas as close to nothing as possible to avoid harassment. 

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u/YggdrasilBurning 10d ago

I mean, rent in Arkansas, Mississippi, and Montana is pretty cheap-- they dont all have to necessarily live in the nicest part of the best cities.

I really think the answer is a combination of providing long-term housing for some at taxpayers cost, moving homeless people away from the centers they're currently overwhelming to LCOL areas, and the return of state funded long-term psychiatric in-patient care.

There's a whole other convo to be had about how much homelessness is an expression of addiction more than an expression of a literal housing shortage, but that opens several other really sticky topics that aren't directly related

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u/Shilo788 10d ago

Yup, they broke up one in local woods and next thing I see a tent down across from my creek and back fields . Off my land so I just watched, the dogs would have alerted if they crossed the creek. After a big flood I found dozens of vodka pint bottles washed up on the road . He got flooded out and never came back. The bottles filled a grain bag so I guess that was his addiction .

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u/llywen 9d ago

Shelters. Literally homeless shelters.

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u/Tratiq 9d ago

You know people are fed up when Gavin is clearing homeless out

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u/RunnyDischarge 10d ago

Holy shit an actual answer. Probably will get downvoted to shit.

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u/AquaChad96 10d ago

This is literally the same as everyone else saying “away”.

This doesn’t provide an actual solution. Homeless people are in fact people, who crave a sense of community and stability. Shanty towns are this. Dispersing them doesn’t solve the issue, it just shuffles it somewhere else until it happens again

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u/RunnyDischarge 10d ago edited 10d ago

Shanty towns are not the answer.

The answers are

the criminal go to prison

Drug addicts go to rehab

The mentally ill are institutionalized

The rest go to shelters

Now the problem is

Many will resist one of these alternatives, and will end up in another. A drug addict will end up in prison, etc

People will oppose things like institutionalization for various reasons so the mentally ill will continue to wander the streets

The answer is like a lot of issues there isn’t really an easy answer. The only easy answer is allowing these shanty towns to exist can’t happen

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u/RunnyDischarge 10d ago

The issue is it's the wrong kind of community.

You know like in school when there's a group of kids that always sits together and they cause problems so the first thing the teacher does is separate them because they're a bad influence on each other?

Recovering alchoholics don't hang out with people that get drunk every night. It's the wrong kind of community. It will only get them in trouble.

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u/Admirable-Winter5370 9d ago

Rehab and institutionalization would do fuck all if they don’t also have housing after their stays. Why stop doing drugs if you’ll be back on the streets in the same situation that led you to become addicted anyways?

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u/theoneandonly6558 10d ago

Shelters. Great solution in theory. Not currently working. Those grants for the homeless keep getting gobbled up by corporations who don't care about the people they serve or efficiently house those who need help. Here is an example from yesterday.

https://www.wilx.com/2025/08/28/former-executive-director-eaton-co-shelter-indicted-embezzlement/

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u/smellyschmelly 9d ago

No. We know the answer. We know what works. Housing first is what has to happen or nothing will change.

Housing first is also the absolute cheapest option for solving the issue. It's just absurd cruelty to ignore that.

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u/whatugonnadowhenthey 10d ago

The question wasn’t “how do we fix homelessness”, the question was “where are the homeless supposed to go”.

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u/Willem_Dafuq 10d ago

Yes, and your answer is just “away” with more words.

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u/RunnyDischarge 10d ago

Yes, away. To jail, homeless shelters, mental hospitals, or failing that, separately and not in big groups that cause even more problems.

The concentration of them together only exacerbates the issues.

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u/somerandomguy1984 10d ago

It does solve the issue.

The productive members of society don’t want to see and deal with a community of drug addicted vagrants building shanty towns.

The solution is to remove the homeless encampments. That’s it.

There are too many stories to bother posting of cities or charities building and giving housing to these people and in 100% of cases they are destroyed.

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u/Syrdon 9d ago

Top comment currently is "Away".

This one is that with an extra 753 characters of pretending the answer isn't awful

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u/Throwaway-fpvda 9d ago

There were other factors, but in some ways the favelas in Brazil started off as sort of temporary “tent cities” that became permanent.

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u/AGayBanjo 9d ago

Was chronically homeless, now work in homelessness services.

Someone below posted reasons why folks tend to clump up. People need community, and IME, even unhealthy camps offer that. It's like a family that is shitty to each other but they only have each other and will defend each other from outside attacks. With lack of housing, forming a community is natural.

I agree that solo homeless folks/families are less abhorred, however "broken windows theory" did change the public's perception of even that.

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u/Vaguely_absolute 9d ago

Okay. Where do they go? You wrote a lot of words for "away".

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u/FiveUpsideDown 10d ago

There’s numerous problems about where do people in camps go once the camps are dismantled. There is a hardcore group of the homeless that won’t use homeless shelters. They also want to use public spaces for their own purposes. I can’t speak about all homeless people but in a small park near me a homeless person lived for months quietly without drawing attention. We also had a young man sleeping in his car for several months. So if you are willing to live quietly there are options. The tent camps of homeless are a problem because of the sanitation and criminal activity. They also don’t just camp. Many of them deliberately place tents on public sidewalks prohibiting anyone except them from using the public spaces. So in response to your question 1. The homeless displaced by the removal of tent camps should go to shelters 2. The ones who don’t want to use shelters, need to live in smaller camps and not draw attention. I’m going to head off the comments from the Reddit moralists who will chide me for not offering a different solution to homelessness. My response is — I am giving here a practical way for people to live without attracting attention from law enforcement and not creating a public health crisis due to a lack of sanitation. If the Reddit moralists have a practical solution that can be implemented today to provide immediate housing, let’s hear it.

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u/goog1e 10d ago

I've always thought the city should just give up and start funding one of the parks as a shelter. (Or better yet a parking garage just to get a roof over it) I really don't get why people would rather live in this park than in a building, but no one else goes there at this point, so why not just formalize it? Put a water fountain in and some kind of bathroom and call it an open air shelter.

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u/That_Community2378 9d ago

Making something formal opens the city up to liability. Someone gets stabbed, OD's? Maybe they have a lawsuit now. The bathroom isn't maintained? That violates health and human safety regulations. Etc.

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u/Comprehensive-Put575 10d ago

This niche used to be filled by allowing the construction of affordable housing. People would build what they could afford. But it was ugly and imperfect. Imagine the poor having poor people problems. Shocking. But at least they could do something about it. Now it’s a joke. Once you’ve fallen off the bandwagon there’s almost no getting back on without substantial government intervention.

Euclidian zoning, municipal codes, and deed restrictions now all but fully prevent building anything less than perfectly complete fully developed neighborhoods. If we want fewer tent cities, we need to let people build what they can afford again. That means cities need to tolerate infill development with manufactured or mobile housing. Let people camp on their own residential lots. Etc. Otherwise they’ll flock to the common public spaces.

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u/throwitallawayomg 9d ago

OK. Again: disperse to where? Nothing in your post actually answered the question of "where are they expected to go?"

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u/green-fae 10d ago

but you literally didnt answer his question LOL he asked where are they supposed to go, not why they couldn't stay.

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u/adminssoftascharmin 9d ago

We need to build facilities. We have the money. Start with a 2000 capacity for a major city like Denver. Any homeless people who are not fit for society need to be put there. With compassion of course - give them whatever drugs they are addicted to in small amounts. Not to taper or transfer if they dont want, but the actual drug. Food, water, safety, shelter. Counselers, therapists. And hopefull they will transfer onto MAT.

If one of the feral homeless people who are not fit for society break the law, they are sent there instead of prison. And they can only be transferred out to another facility or free again after deemed fit. If they want to rot in prison instead, they can choose that too. Or they can stay in the much comfier facilities for feral people.

But we need these facilities to keep them in. If they want to stay there forever, so be it. We already bear this burden with lifer prisoners in our taxes and thats barely a ding. If they want to take the help and transfer out they don't even have to become not homeless - just homeless and fit for society.

I'm fine with buskers. I'm fine with people stopping me to tell me a joke for a dollar if I laugh. These people aren't threats to others or society at all and they've always been a part and always will be until we reach utopia. These people dispersed amongst a city won't compete for turf, these are the people drinking or using small amounts of drugs but not leaving fucking needles and shit littered about.

Basically we just need to tell the feral homeless that are a threat to society that it isn't going to fly anymore. That they can stay high on small amounts of their DOC's and waste away in compassionate facilities, or they can get help and transition back into the world, or rot in prison the rest of their lives.

I'm progressive, a hippy, and spent time on the streets overnight of the Tenderloin myself. I know the problem better than most studying it objectively and experiencing it subjectively. This is the only way.

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u/SprawlWars 10d ago

Except that's not an accurate answer. The idea that cities just want unhoused people to disperse into alleys or stoops doesn’t reflect the reality of the situation. What’s happening right now in D.C. and other cities is far more aggressive: forced removal, threats of institutionalization, and hostile architecture designed to erase homelessness from sight rather than tolerate it.

In Washington, D.C., for example, the federal government isn’t quietly letting people move into side streets. Itt’s ordering them out entirely. In August 2025, Trump stated “The homeless have to move out, IMMEDIATELY. We will give you places to stay, but FAR from the Capital.” Encampments have been physically dismantled, with the National Guard and FBI deployed to enforce removals. Many displaced residents wound up in ER waiting rooms, temporary hotels, or scattered across other neighborhoods because shelters were already full or had strict barriers. This isn't dispersal. It’s criminalization and exile.

The Trump administration has also suggested commitment for unhoused indiciduals. Yes. They are literally suggesting involuntary institutionalization of unhoused people with mental illness or substance-use disorders. That’s a return to confinement practices long criticized as inhumane and ineffective. (FYI - there's a reason we moved away from involuntary commitments. If you aren't familiar look up the videos from Willowbrook State School and the absolute fucking horror to the victims' living conditions.) Suggesting commitment directly undermines the “Housing First” model that research consistently shows is more successful and far less damaging.

And, let's be honest, dispersal isn't the goal. If it was, hostile architecture wouldn’t exist. Cities spend millions designing public spaces to actively exclude unhoused people: benches with extra armrests so no one can lie down, spikes embedded in ledges, sloped concrete surfaces, sprinkler systems timed to soak sleeping areas, and even massive boulders dropped under bridges to block encampments. London’s infamous Camden bench was built to prevent anyone from lying down, loitering, or skating—an architectural monument to exclusion. They're not interested in dispersal. They are designing to make public space unusable for those with nowhere else to go.

So no, it’s not about letting people just sleep somewhere else. The actual trend is about erasure through enforcement and exclusion: militarized sweeps, threats of institutionalization, and city planning designed to push people out of every public corner. If dispersal were enough, we wouldn’t send soldiers to clear parks and intimidate unhoused persons--or pay architects massive sums of money to design hostile architecture.

Here's are some sources if you want to read up:

Washington Post – "‘Nowhere to go’: What happened after Trump ordered homeless encampments cleared"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2025/08/29/trump-dc-homeless-encampments-cleared/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

The Guardian – "National guard troops deployed in DC rake leaves and clear homeless camps"

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/aug/27/trump-national-guard-beautification-dc?utm_source=chatgpt.com

The Guardian – "Trump says homeless people must ‘move out immediately’ from Washington DC"

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/aug/10/trump-homeless-golf-course-washington-dc?utm_source=chatgpt.com

Wikipedia – "Hostile architecture"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostile_architecture

Wikipedia – "Camden bench"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camden_bench

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u/LoveYourself50 10d ago

Agree in some sense - unless it’s your door stoop he’s sleeping on (and pissing on). People get angry because the homeless become so destructive. There are public trashcans, but they litter. They randomly piss and shit wherever they want, they harass people and often become angry and violent. Homelessness will never be eradicated though, no matter what.

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u/avaheli 10d ago

It’s worth pointing out that this is an accepted practice because of the recidivism of the homeless to leave their free housing and return to the streets. Or worse, they burn and vandalize their housing and create unsafe conditions for those who want to stay. I have a little sympathy for them since we evolved for 200,000+/- years to live outside in small egalitarian tribes, but I also find most homeless encampments intolerable. 

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u/isleoffurbabies 9d ago

True to an extent. I see individuals begging in middle class neighborhoods and everyone on Nextdoor wants them immediately removed. Where? Somewhere else.

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u/UnhappyImprovement53 9d ago

Making it illegal doesnt solve the problem though it just moves it somewhere else. Only way to actually solve the problem is to put more money into programs helping the homeless stand on their feet again. That doesnt happen because it costs less to make it illegal to be homeless than it does to actually help them.

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u/dru1202 9d ago

Fresno CA has seen this happen in several different areas.

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u/Claudia_SF 9d ago

People need systems of support though, which encampments provide — a group is more safe than being solo, one person can get food while others stay back with belongings, one person can help another with a physical disability get dressed, etc. Larger encampments can develop because police disperse smaller groups in other areas. People end up gravitating to areas where authorities are choosing not to disperse for a while. So — it’s complicated. Also rates of unhoused have been repeatedly linked to area housing prices (by researchers). So while I’m sure it’s true that cities have always had unhoused people, the current situation in large west coast cities is (from my perspective) linked to specific aspects of our contemporary situation like housing prices, aspects of US capitalism (like role of private equity in housing and other basic human needs), federal funding swings, limits of federal-state programs, migration patterns, etc.

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u/BlixxOrchid 9d ago

Disperse sounds like a euphemism for sweeping people under carpets.

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u/LolaSaysHi 9d ago

Some cities, San Francisco, I believe, and I think Portland is in the process of or had already started, set up parking lots where tents can be pitched so homeless folks can “rent” a tent. It generates income for the city but more importantly allows for people to settle somewhere without fear of losing their space and their belongings. Some cities are also working on building mini homes for homeless individuals that can be rented for a nominal monthly fee.

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u/junoduck44 9d ago

Exactly.

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u/DVAoife420 9d ago

add more commas, do it, do it,

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u/DougOsborne 9d ago

Nice Dehumanization, Heirnrich.

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u/thatmarcelfaust 9d ago

Anti homeless architecture disproves this point resoundingly. “Let me answer this in good faith and go on to spew nonsense.”

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u/Ok-Faithlessness8204 9d ago

The most upvoted is the most heartless one, damn this world really is fucked… everyone looks at homeless as nobodies and it’s a choice. Wack…

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u/Aer150s 9d ago

So NIMBYism, great, a plague upon civility.

The real answer is that the homeless are supposed to be supported by the state in low cost housing within the city, rehabilitated to ween off drugs, and then reintroduced to society and retrained for jobs. Not disperse. It's an eyesore, but I bet it's worse for the homeless person than it is for you to have to see the impact of capitalist society.

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u/Good_Focus2665 9d ago

Here in Portland they basically took over sidewalks and made it harder for people with wheel chairs to navigate around the city. The city was sued for lack of accessibility. I don’t think anyone cares if people are encamped in nearby forest areas. 

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u/LaHondaVision 9d ago

Society for me but not for thee, eh?

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u/Shinhan 9d ago

I strongly disagree that "away" answers are not in good faith.

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u/Dudewhocares3 9d ago

You’re aware how dangerous it is to be homeless and alone right?

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u/SeventhAlkali 9d ago

Personally, I wouldn't care very much about encampments if the people there would pick up after themselves and do their drugs away from view. It's just the fact that they look like landfills-in-progress that is really bothersome

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u/wentImmediate 9d ago

Since no one is answering the question in good faith, I’ll give it a shot. Honestly, most cities don’t give a shit

Here's a definition of "good faith":

Good faith is a broad term that's used to encompass honest dealing. Depending on the exact setting, good faith may require an honest belief or purpose, faithful performance of duties, observance of fair dealing standards, or an absence of fraudulent intent.

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u/Cranberryoftheorient 9d ago

They have to sleep somewhere dude..

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u/AnxietyMedical7498 9d ago

I’ll give it a shot

You didn't answer the question

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