r/NoStupidQuestions • u/Garey_Coleman • 10d ago

Where are the homeless supposed to go?

Cities have been cracking down on homeless people so they can’t have encampments or stay on sidewalks. At the same time usually the shelters are full. So those who are unable to get into a shelter, where are they supposed to go?

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u/BeardedDisc 10d ago

Part of the answer here is that those “encampments” make it more “comfortable” (I get that’s it’s still a shit hole). Many people feel this removes much of the incentive to pull oneself out of this situation one way or another.

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u/bannedbooks123 10d ago

Shit on the street is a public health hazard, though.

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u/jimthesquirrelking 9d ago

Publicly accessible maintained bathrooms help prevent this

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u/bannedbooks123 9d ago

As long as people aren't shooting up heroine in them and leaving their dirty needles around that you couldn't pay someone enough to clean up. Speaking of, heroine needles are another health hazard

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u/sometimes_sydney 9d ago

They literally do pay people to clean them up.

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u/jimthesquirrelking 9d ago

There are sharps boxes that are mass produced and easy to leave in these restrooms. You can throw as many "but what about this dirty thing or that gross thing!" As you like but at a certain point its cheaper to accommodate these needs than criminalize them and incarcerate  them. Unless of course you make money off slave, I mean prisoner labor... (Edit) also you're very uninformed if you think no one can be hired to clean up needles, people often clean worse, you just need proper ppe 

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u/bannedbooks123 9d ago edited 9d ago

I also want to add that I knew someone who was a drug abuse counselor who had once been addicted to meth and living on the streets. He said getting arrested saved his life because it forced him to get sober. While he was in prison, his gf who was also homeless and addicted to drugs died of an overdose.

I went to his 4 year sobriety party where his mother broke down and cried, saying that she was relieved when he got arrested because she lost so many nights of sleep thinking of him on the streets and what might happen. She also couldn't do anything about it because he was an adult. She was so proud of who he became after. At least while he was in prison, he was alive and she knew where he was.

So, prison may not be the worst thing to happen to someone.

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u/Curious-Author-3140 9d ago

Yes, the blessing to have help that restored the chance for a healthy fulfilling life! Our ability to successfully help those with so many of the life threatening illnesses that, not just the victim, but our communities struggle with has improved exponentially! Tech advances especially have been instrumental in ability to quantify the effectiveness of the science in real time. The value to his community and to the economy they bring back is much greater than the current costs of care, in taxed income alone, but in other measurable metrics as well.

We should make the investment, I can’t argue with the data, we know that. I just feel that in this challenging economy, with the national debt at breaking levels, it is fiscally imperative that we consider how much higher the cost of intervention in acute stages has than providing the basic services to prevent and mitigate the condition in the first place! Look up the statistical data and analysis of fiscal implications..

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u/melodicprophet 9d ago

While this is certainly true in many cases, the problem for society at large is the cost. I don’t have the exact numbers at my disposal, but the cost of “housing” an incarcerated citizen is north of $40k annually. Even if you were to willfully house these people at the median rent, it would cost less than half of that. And we know median rent is way too high. Low-cost housing should be significantly less than that. So even simply legislating a little compassion still comes out well ahead of for I g addicts to dry out in jail cells.

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u/HeadsAllEmpty57 9d ago

If you consider rent to be the only cost involved with housing that might be true.

I bet maintenance, social services, mental health services, and other benefits(food, utilities, insurance etc. are not free) after 3-5 years pushes that number past or equal to 40k per person annually. Many on-the-street homeless are not mentally well or deeply addicted to drugs, mentally unwell and drug addicted people do not care for their surroundings especially if it's "free" it will be trashed into unlivable quicker then you can build more. Then once they get the housing, you're also going to have to provide services to help the people's situations like drug & serious mental health therapy that will only work for a small fraction of the people.

I'm not saying that the cost wouldn't be worth it, it very well might be, but you can't just compare low-cost housing rent prices with the whole cost of a person's prison stay(salaries, food, services) and say it's cheaper.

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u/melodicprophet 9d ago

I don’t see why you wouldn’t expose the ridiculous overhead in imprisoning a person who lacks a house when trying to emphasize this point. The cost of a homeless person (disease, emergency rooms, crime, rehabs, addiction, theft, etc.) being free to live on the street is estimated to being similar to putting them in jail.

While the costs of a solution may be difficult to project, we do have a good idea of how much it would cost to house the homeless. We have a good idea how much it costs taxpayers to neglect the problem. We have a strong understanding of why people are homeless. We know beyond housing subsidies, Medicaid, and SNAP how much the American government spends on so-called anti-poverty programs already - which in almost every case is more or less just handing out money.

There is no perfect solution, but neglect is well beyond cruel - it’s financially devastating.

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u/HeadsAllEmpty57 9d ago

I wouldn't emphasize or "expose" the various prison costs because they are all included in that 40k/year figure... housing, utilities, food, medical care, and social services are already included even though they are all subpar services. Also my point wasn't really that prison costs are worth it, are a good use of those resources, or that prison costs are cheaper than the housing option. My point is when comparing the two you can't ONLY look at the low cost rent for the housing option while simultaneously including all costs within the prison option.

I'm completely for a better solution than the current situation which is either tent cities rife with crime, drugs, and danger or prison. But if we are going to talk about those better options or better yet try to convince others that aren't sold on a better solution yet, then I believe we should also talk about the true costs(both monetary and labor wise) and not try to sell it with the exaggeration of "low-cost housing rent subsidized is substantially less than half of subsidized prison cost per person, therefore housing them is considerably cheaper than imprisoning them and all their problems go away magically" because the truth of the matter is that simply putting a roof over their heads will do nothing for an overwhelming majority of them.

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u/melodicprophet 9d ago

But this information is readily available. It’s not perfectly empirical, but I am not pulling it out of thin air. I am estimating to be succinct, but know the data. My points are rooted in that data.

The center for housing and urban development (HUD) estimated a one-time cost of $20b to end homelessness in 2021 when COVID made everyone realize how close we all are to losing everything. I don’t know if I fully accept that and would expect that there would be extensive annual cost In sustaining that. But regardless, $20b before even beginning to factor in all the benefits that will come from 99.9% of people having shelter from the elements is a shocking low bill. Elon Musk is worth over $400b himself. He individually could pay that bill and invest another $500m annually for the next 760yrs and as far as funding goes - the problem is solved. The logistics and politics are a very different matter. But financially speaking, this would not be an expensive undertaking for a superpower like the US to handle.

I cite median rent (just under $20k annually) because most people are struggling to hold their apartments. If you’re looking for a number, its all out there. An incarcerated person costs roughly $40k annually. A person on the street perhaps slightly less but wildly variable. Say $35k. To provide low-cost housing to an individual Estimates to be about $13k annually. That’s including support like SNAP and Medicaid. There are about 800,000 homeless people (rapidly rising with the recent adminstration.) Do I think this is the exact math of how everything will just perfectly work out? Of course not. But it is abundantly clear that this a very affordable problem to solve. I emphasize the cost because IME it is by far the most fundamentally misunderstood aspect of both the problem and potential solutions. Many people just assume it is completely infeasible.

To me it’s the most frustrating truth about life. The things a human being fundamentally need are very affordable and proven to be doable by a caring society: Food, Housing, Clean Water, and Health Care. Most people just want agency over their own lives and to be treated with dignity. But by making survival itself a commodity when such scarcity doesn’t exist is greatly holding our culture and people back.

In my view and time spent learning about homelessness and experiencing some of it: At absolute worst, the cost would be negligible. But from what we do know, a roof + SNAP + Medicaid is a chance at a real life and IMO believe it would the compound benefits of even cutting the homeless population in half would be impossible to calculate. That’s the kind of world I’d prefer to live in even if there was a tax increase. But it does not appear necessary as far as I can see.

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u/melodicprophet 8d ago

“Because the truth of the matter is simply putting a roof over their heads will do nothing for an overwhelming majority of them.”

I mean this right here says it all doesn’t it?

Cost is used as the go-to excuse. I just demonstrated that excuse is clearly not rooted in reality. Cost stands in place for “these people are just not worth it.”

I don’t assume that to be everyone’s belief, so I like to demonstrate the financial reality of the situation and it almost never proves to be worth it. There’s a reason domestic animals constantly seek shelter. They know what you know and what I know and what a homeless person knows - it’s nicer inside. It’s warmer. It’s safer. It allows for privacy. Where I live, you will literally die from the cold 8 months of the year if you have nowhere to go.

10% Veterans 40% Women 33% are literally children (this is the fastest growing group over the past two years)

Not that it should matter, but does that alter your perception? If 1/3 of them are children, you’re ready to write them off as irredeemable because their parents can’t pay the rent?

I grew up very well off. Dad is a frugal and self-centered bastard but the basics were never an issue. I am a grown man with a college degree. Homelessness was an absolute fucking nightmare. And I even at least had a car. If you don’t have the base of maslow’s hierearchy of needs, then virtually no positive outcomes are even possible. If you can lay that base and safety net, you’re giving people a chance. For most of us as passionate as I am about this, it’s about simple dignity. Did I make some mistakes? Definitely. But I didn’t do anything to warrant being disposed of like trash, either. If the only benefit to housing the homeless is that they are 10% more comfortable than they were before, it’s 100% worth it to me. I wouldn’t seek a return on it.

You saying it would make no difference is shockingly out of touch. It would change people’s entire worlds. And with each generation of slashing down that homeless number: educational and training opportunities grow, breaking away from dysfunctional and abusive families becomes possible, and our entire culture becomes richer because we can take pride in how we care for our most vulnerable people.

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u/jimthesquirrelking 9d ago

Survivorship bias, our prison system is not healthy or healing. People like that are exceptions not the general rule 

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u/bannedbooks123 9d ago edited 9d ago

I'd rather be alive in prison than dead on the street. But, my friend doing so well prob had a lot to do with the fact that he had a nice family who loved him. Families are important.

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u/bannedbooks123 9d ago

I just think it's naive to think people are going to do what they're supposed to do. Do you think they'll really use those boxes or care, especially when they're strung out?

I don't know what the answer is but letting people live on the streets isn't good for anyone, especially for the people who live on the street. It's not safe on the streets and addiction/ homelessness will kill you eventually.

There's a difference between compassion and enabling. By making it easy to live on the streets, you're enabling. A lot of them don't want housing in their current mental state, and if you gave it to them, they would abuse it and probably not even use it.

They like the "freedom" but it comes at a cost to everyone, especially themselves. Homeless are most likely to be raped, robbed, murdered, overdose, die from the elements, etc etc. They're also a danger to innocent bystanders if they happen to be the psychotic type.

Somehow, we have to get them off the streets and not incentivize them to stay on streets by making it so easy/appealing.

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u/1127_and_Im_tired 9d ago

They tried that in Seattle and other places in the PNW. It turned into a shitshow. Needles everywhere, drugged up people all over the place, crime went up, et. They had to pass new laws to recriminalize drug use.

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u/jimthesquirrelking 9d ago

They also tried it in Portugal and it went amazingly. The problem is the American system cares nothing for poor individual people inside it. European culture isn't perfect but its much better than American 

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u/LeagueMoney9561 9d ago

If I was paid enough, I wouldn’t mind cleaning up needles if I had proper equipment and ppe.

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u/bannedbooks123 9d ago

If it's a city job, it's not going to pay enough.

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u/Curious-Author-3140 9d ago

Better to have them sh..ing themselves on the sidewalk? It is time for us to stop pretending we don’t know the solutions or are incapable of applying them. If we really are that incompetent all we have to do is look to other countries that have successfully provided for the needs of their populations, even those that find themselves in need of intervention to function in society despite the robust structure of services and assistance available equilaterally to each member of the community .