r/NoStupidQuestions • u/Garey_Coleman • 9d ago

Where are the homeless supposed to go?

Cities have been cracking down on homeless people so they can’t have encampments or stay on sidewalks. At the same time usually the shelters are full. So those who are unable to get into a shelter, where are they supposed to go?

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u/ConfusionsFirstSong 9d ago

But see that’s called housing first, and the current administration believes everyone should have to be sober and in treatment before they get the benefits of housing. Otherwise, they may not use their boot straps and might depend on government handouts.

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u/Irishish Hey, Paramedics! 9d ago edited 8d ago

I know that, speaking as an alcoholic, utter destitution would totally have shamed me into changing my life, and definitely not driven me to say "fuck it, I don't want to care anymore" and just scrounge enough for food and gutter vodka. After all, when you're addicted to something and you are convinced nothing can make you feel as good as that thing, like your life will be meaningless without that thing, it's super easy to just go "well I gotta give this thing up to sleep in a crowded dorm where people might steal my stuff."

EDIT: Sigh. /s.

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u/Stunning_Scheme_6418 7d ago

Right? I stayed in a shelter in Denver once where they stole my thyroid meds. Lol don't even get you high. After that I had my friend sleep the next Matt down and we put all our stuff between our Matt's while we slept. They also made u go to the front to get a dole of TP so no one got too much. A real dignified month.

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u/RIF_rr3dd1tt 8d ago

/s?

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u/Irishish Hey, Paramedics! 8d ago

Yes, of course, I just hate that /s symbol!

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u/pinksocks867 8d ago

I don't think it's about how they will react.So much as it is about i will be able to go into the seven eleven without being accosted by four different drug addicts asking me for money.

Home non addicts matter too.

We should get to enjoy parks. I should get to enjoy the shower in the gym at my apartment complex without running into people who have snuck in to use it

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u/hopefullpesimist 8d ago

Wait …. Why i relate to your message :)

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u/IDontStealBikes 8d ago

I don’t believe you

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u/panaceaXgrace 8d ago

I've been following a YT channel called Vasya in the Hay, about a Russian man who goes to these places to help people. Many are children of parents who are dead or checked out mentally due to alcohol consumption. I know in the US we have drug and alcohol problems but some of the people in this place in Russia, my god. Children with easily treatable conditions that take their lives because their parents would rather them be disabled to collect a small check instead of getting them care, and all of it spent on alcohol.

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u/suoretaw 8d ago

That unfortunately happens everywhere.

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u/panaceaXgrace 8d ago

Oh yes definitely, I'm just saying the other poster says "I don't believe you" but it's sadly not uncommon for people to live in the dirt and choose alcohol over food. My father was a drug addict and he chose drugs over everything and everyone else. He was a drifter, and he was a scammer who told people he was a disabled Vietnam vet to get sympathy and handouts.

It just made me think, what Irishish said. Reminded me of that channel I'm watching. It happens to be in Russia, but I know it's bad here in the US too.

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u/suoretaw 8d ago

I live in Canada and am a recovering addict. I’ve seen all sorts. It’s really sad. I know I hurt a lot of people when I was using drugs and alcohol, but thankfully no kids. Both my parents are/were alcoholics though so I know how hard it is to be on that end of things, and I hope you’re doing well, and healing, if applicable.

Also, coincidentally, I know an old guy who told me and everyone else he was a vet, for the same reasons. It wasn’t until we naturally lost touch that I learned it wasn’t even close to being true.

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u/pinksocks867 8d ago

I am addicted to nicotine, and when I smoked cigarettes, i absolutely chose them over food on the few occasions that I had to make that choice

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u/panaceaXgrace 7d ago

You know I think I did that a few times too. I smoked for 22 years 2 packs a day but I got the book Allen Carr's Easyway to Stop Smoking and quit just like that 15 years ago. I would have bought cigarettes over food if I had to choose, definitely.

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u/IDontStealBikes 7d ago

Congratulations for making that decision carrying it out. That had to be difficult and you had to become very strong. That’s really impressive.

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u/panaceaXgrace 7d ago

Oh thank you! :) I think it just hit me how he talked about how we were all being scammed by the tobacco companies and how they invest so much in keeping us addicted I vowed never to give them another penny. He said by the end of the book I'd be a former smoker, and I was ready at that moment. It sucked for a few weeks but I quit just to spite them for making me so miserable!

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u/Author_Noelle_A 8d ago

I live in a city with Housing First complexes, and others that requires people with addiction issues being treatment. Don’t have to be sober, just in treatment. Treatment’s offered, but you don’t have to and can keep shooting up in private. There are no requirements at all for the Housing First, and it’s gone VERY badly, unless your idea of success is not having to see homeless people and giving them a private place to go OD and not be discovered until three days later. OD in public, and 911 gets called. Worse is the crime rate. One of the complexes, I think Alta Vista, has about 7,000 police calls come in per year. Yes, 7,000. Yes, that’s a ridiculuos number per day, and it’s like, how? The crime is so bad that some people have moved back to the streets to be safer.

The ones requiring being in treatment have been credited with helping people get their lives back together and stable. No crime issues. It’s been great.

The HF really is just a place to get them somewhere we can’t see them. No one wanting to get sober is going to get sober. When a reporter went there to do an article, she was in a woman’s apartment talking interviewing her when someone busted in the door looking for a hiding place because there was a shooting.

HF sounds like a great concept, but the reality is that people so hell-bent on using are personally better off on the streets where 911 can be called. I guess it’s better for society ‘cause one less junkie, right?

And no, decriminalizing didn’t work. It made everything so much worse, more needles in parks, ambulances being so busy that at least one person who had a heart attack is known to have died because it took over half an hour for an ambulance to be available because of how many OD calls. Deciminalization was reversed, and ODs have gone down. I’m on the other side of the river from that, so it’s local. Portland and Vancouver may as well be views as a scientific study.

Having seen how both go, I favor the mandatory-treatment one. Requiring complete sobriety first is extremely unreasonable, but letting it be a free-for-all endangers people, some who really are trying to get their lives together, but can’t because they aren’t safe.

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u/ConfusionsFirstSong 8d ago

Ive worked in housing and with people with severe addiction and mental health challenges. In Housing First, getting people housed is only the beginning. After this comprehensive services are offered including mental health and substance use services to insure wellbeing and longevity of the placement.

You seem to overlook that for people who refuse treatment, this approach categorically denies them housing. Which is completely fucked up. Putting someone in housing is not pointless. It is, in fact, quite literally lifesaving.

Maybe if you live in so cal where it never gets cold, then the elements aren’t as life threatening, excepting those heat waves that can melt trash cans to the pavement. Well where I live in Appalachia it regularly gets well below freezing in winter, and we have major snowstorms. People die from the mere fact of being unsheltered. And being unsheltered makes sobriety infinitely more difficult. They take uppers at night to stay awake to avoid being victimized. They drink and take opioids and stimulants to escape the utter misery of homelessness. Their lives are often hell on earth. You’d probably drink or use drugs too if you were unhoused. Most of us probably would.

And despite your city’s apparently awful time rolling out HF, the evidence still points strongly in favor of its use. It is actually MUCH cheaper and results in people being housed (surprise!) much more consistently than programs predicated upon treatment first do.

And besides the evidence and life saving reasons, people just straight up deserve to have some basic level of dignity. Even if they aren’t interested in going to rehab first.

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u/Cocosito 5d ago

Where is this? I live in AZ and have tried to help a family member and those comprehensive services are incredibly difficult to find and organize even with an address, a phone, insurance, transportation and money.

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u/ConfusionsFirstSong 5d ago

In my area these comprehensive services are offered by public community mental health agencies. Some, ie ACT for people with psychosis, are not really available to people through private insurance in my state, and so depends on Medicaid or state funding. Substance Abuse Intensive Outpatient (SAIOP), I’m not sure about. But if you look into it, it may be available in your area, or it may not. Generally the best variety of services will be found in larger cities. Rural areas will have fewer such agencies and less resources. Even in places with good services, there’s usually a waiting list. It’s the nature of public mental health and substance use care throughout the country—need greatly outpaces available funding, resources and staffing.

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u/-spicychilli- 8d ago

I can see the benefit in having both though. If I was homeless and wanting to get better having the option to be in a Housing First situation that required treatment sounds immensely preferable. That way you can focus on your recovery in an environment where everyone else has similar goals. The environment will be safer and likely will make it easier to get back on your feet.

If people are not interested in treatment then give them a different complex.

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u/Legal-Sprinkles8862 8d ago

Hi! Currently sober & homeless here & I honestly had no idea that this was all it took to get housing. From what I was told I needed to have a mental disability (I do) & live in my car for 6 months. So I am. But I live in fear of someone stealing my home since I drive a Hyundai. 😆 They've already made two very costly attempts & I don't wanna find out if the 3rd time does the trick.

I am also working full-time but can't get benefits from my job due to my mental disability forcing me down to part time hours in the aftermath of a mental health crisis (I am in therapy as well). So even though I am now back to working full time but still need the government handout of state health insurance.

It feels really weird to know that my earning potential is more than enough to cover rent & still not be allowed to rent because previously I was to poor & sick to pay rent. 😅

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u/Awkward-Skin8915 8d ago

You can afford rent but aren't allowed to rent? What about people looking for roommates/sub letting? That seems normal.

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u/Legal-Sprinkles8862 8d ago

I've asked around & couldn't find anyone looking. I've also searched online for a roommate for awhile with no luck as well. All the private landlords seem to have moved to overpriced airbnbs as well so I've been trying to get help through the state but its taking forever & winter is approaching fast. 🥶

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u/Awkward-Skin8915 8d ago

That is normal that it will take a long time to get government assistance. Have you considered moving? Sometimes you can get out of town and things will be cheaper the farther out you go. You would have to commute farther to keep your job but it might be an option? Expand your search. Good luck.

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u/Legal-Sprinkles8862 6d ago

I did move cities just chasing employment, & I have expanded my search to include an hour commute since that was the original commute I would have had.

Sadly, the issue is not price, as I live in a state where people come to be able to afford a home. && I was in a pretty cheap city already. The issue is having an eviction & that is making me ineligible no matter how much I make.

Thank you for the well wishes!

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u/panaceaXgrace 8d ago

One of the hardest things about needing a place to live after my roommate of 15 years passed away in January was getting credit approval for an apartment. It took several months, and only then because a distant but kind family member had a few rentals and one opened. I still failed his credit check but he let me move in with my brother co-signing. Usually you have to live there to sign, you can't have a co-signer but in this case I was given the opportunity. I didn't need money, just credit. Mine was just very low because I've never had credit cards or taken out loans. Ever. So you have to do things like that to build credit I guess. I hadn't had anything in my name either in the past 25 years, as I had a partner, then a roommate so everything was in their name. I like to live very simply, so I never thought to even apply for a card or loan. I pay all my bills on time but I guess that doesn't count when you're paying them in cash to your roommate! lol

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u/Elegant-Ad-9221 8d ago

I have been in your situation and it’s really frustrating

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u/-rogerwilcofoxtrot- 8d ago

Housing First doesn't necessarily require sobriety or to be clean. Source: I work in this field. It varies by funding source, jurisdiction, etc.

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u/AttitudeOutrageous75 8d ago

As a recovered alcoholic/addict I can tell you this is a very difficult problem. That's why it still exists. Giving things can enable disease progression and not stop the problem. I've worked with homeless who relapse and abandon their provided apartments to go back to the streets. Addiction is the problem. Homelessness is just a symptom.

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u/bikinibeard 8d ago

Well, its kind of pointless to stick someone who uses fentanyl all day in their own house. They’ll die

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u/ConfusionsFirstSong 8d ago

Appropriate and effective utilization of housing first doesn’t stop with housing. It’s just the first prerequisite piece of helping someone put their life back together. It should be partnered with ACT and other intensive mental health and substance use programs as supporting the person so that they can safely remain in the community. I’ve worked with just such a housing program. Was it easy? Hell no. Did some people struggle? Absolutely. Did some people do really well? Also yes.

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u/bikinibeard 8d ago

How many overdoses and died? Because the overdose death rate is highest in our housing first projects here, which is why I’ll never support it. I’ve heard the same thing, “some people do really well, some don’t.” Let’s add: some die. That’s not acceptable.

I’m all for Housing Second after a long term (90 day) medical detox, med adjustment and a psychiatrist signs off on it. Staff— doctors and nurses, medical professionals— must take control because this is a healthcare emergency.

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u/ConfusionsFirstSong 7d ago

Do you have stats to back up your claim? Because the literature overwhelmingly supports housing first. https://nlihc.org/sites/default/files/Housing-First-Evidence.pdf

You seem to ignore the fact that people die due to being on the streets. Due to ongoing substance use there, due to victimization, due to exposure to the elements, due to diseases they might not get if they had basic housing and hygiene available. They tried “treatment first” housing policy for decades. It didn’t work, and cost a lot more. Housing first does not mean housing only. It means give someone somewhere to live and it becomes a lot easier to get them off substances. Idk if you actually have met unsheltered unhoused people who use substances, but they typically are further pushed to use substances by both necessity ie stimulants to stay awake at night so as not to be victimized, or due to despair at their situation. Giving people something to work to keep, ie housing, gives them a reason to try.

Also nowhere keeps people for 90 days except maybe private rehab/residential settings. Expecting the government to pay for those—talk about expensive. Not to mention people who use substances have civil rights, and being compelled to complete multi months long treatment in order to just get housing access is an abusive tactic.

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u/bikinibeard 7d ago

I was homeless. HAVE YOU EVER BEEN?

I volunteer weekly at St. Vincent de Paul in Oakland— WHAT DO YOU DO?

I cook once a month and help feed an encampment of about 40 people- WHAT DO YOU DO?

Nearly every single homeless person I come in contact with has the same extenuating circumstances that keep them homeless: addiction, mental illness, violent/sexual criminal record.

Half the people we personally put into private rooms overdosed. Half of those die.

I have watched data collectors (that are always working with or in conjunction with the NGOs that receive the most homeless dollars) ask their questions and I’ve seen their surveys.

Example: “Were you ever evicted? Note: eviction can be when a family member or romantic partner makes you leave. Eviction can be when you have rented a hotel room and you are told to leave. Eviction can be a shelter that no longer serves you.”

See how that works? That’s literally ever single homeless person.

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u/ConfusionsFirstSong 7d ago

I respect your experience, your trauma and your work. However, you’re overlooking the bigger picture.

Im a housing worker with people in the depths of psychosis and people using meth and fentanyl every single day. Most are already in intensive outpatient treatment. We try to encourage that. Housing first does NOT and should never come at the expense of access to substance and mental health treatment.

I’ve also lost people to drugs, to victimization, to chronic illness that went untreated because they were on the streets. None of them would have fared any better if they were still unhoused due to lack of sobriety as a barrier. In fact some of the most tragic deaths wouldn’t have happened at all if they just had a home to go to. They cannot get sober much less mentally healthy while sleeping behind dumpsters, under bridges or in tents.

Housing First has been proven over and over, in Canada’s At Home/Chez Soi study, the VA, HUD, SAMHSA. They all show better housing stability and NO INCREASE IN SUBSTANCE USE.

Realistically there is no funding nor enough facilities for 90+ days of inpatient treatment for every homeless person, nor would forcing it be ethical. Mandating institutionalization would be coercive and a breach of civil rights under current law. Housing first with intensive community treatment is the best of all scenarios available.

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u/Common-Classroom-847 7d ago

What if someone isn't interested in putting their life back together and just wants to take drugs and not get mental health and substance abuse help? I get that appropriate use of HF is a certain thing, but you can't make people want things just because it is for their own good.

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u/ConfusionsFirstSong 6d ago

No, you can’t make people stop using, even when they’re in intensive outpatient treatment. The goal the is for the professionals to not be too pushy about it and to work with the people who aren’t ready to quit to practice harm reduction and to keep them alive until such a time as they may decide to try cutting back or going sober. But even just keeping them alive is worthwhile. Just housing them so they’re more likely to stay alive is worthwhile.

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u/stabbingrabbit 8d ago

The people working should get the housing first. Even if it is subsidized.

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u/ConfusionsFirstSong 8d ago

People’s moral worth does not depend on their ability to be productive! This whole take is extremely ableist if not eugenicist, because housing is a basic need and vital to survival By your logic, people who can’t work such as people with schizophrenia and other profoundly disabling mental illness shouldn’t have housing because they don’t work. Because that’s a large portion of the people who are chronically homeless.

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u/stabbingrabbit 8d ago

No. What i am saying is those who are contributing to society, should be able to be housed first. Those not contributing should be in institutions getting help.

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u/Friendly_Age9160 8d ago

Ffs I’d never get into the housing here then if I needed it. I feel so bad how stupid we are about this. The Nextdoor posts about the shelter they wanted to build here were insanely ridiculous. NIMBY and all the other bs.

Now uh, anyone got mouthwash or maybe some mints? I’m asking for a friend.

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u/AdditionalAge9042 8d ago

Fill me in on what the LAST administration did to address homelessness. I won't bother waiting because we both know the answer was NOTHING

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u/genbud1 8d ago

Cause that doesn't work California's a good example. Just an incinerator for tax money.

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u/ToastiestMouse 8d ago

A lot of times people with substance abuse problems became homeless because of those problems.

It doesn't matter what you do for them if they aren't sober they aren't going to prosper. That's just common sense. You don't give a drunk his keys back before he gets sober.

We need to have systems in place that get people out of homelessness for good. Not just temporarily.

You can't just fix all of their problems and expect them to learn. You can give them some support but they have to want to put in the work. Otherwise you are just babysitting them.

I have nothing against the homeless, provided they don't do anything harmful to innocent people, but I would never advocate for a system that focuses on just taking care of them. I want a system that supports them and teaches them to do better.

Some people can't be saved and some don't want to be saved. That's their choice and I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. But the ones that want to do better and are willing to work for it....those are the ones that should get support. Because they actually have a chance of succeeding.