r/NoStupidQuestions • u/Garey_Coleman • 10d ago

Where are the homeless supposed to go?

Cities have been cracking down on homeless people so they can’t have encampments or stay on sidewalks. At the same time usually the shelters are full. So those who are unable to get into a shelter, where are they supposed to go?

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u/UInferno- 9d ago

I compare supporting the homeless population to lifting a couch. The more people who help carry the couch, the lighter it becomes for everyone. But not helping carry the couch is always easier than helping, so you personally are incentivized to sit out. However, when you sit out, it becomes harder for everyone to carry, which only pushes them to stop helping. Unfortunately, the couch needs to be carried regardless. So if someone goes "Fuck it, this couch needs to be moved," and tries to pick it up, people will see them doing something and go "Thank God someone else is handling this, so I don't have to," despite the fact that if they did help out it'd be easier for everyone.

If every part of a city had soup kitchens and shelters, there would maybe be... a couple dozen at most per shelter, it'd be easier to manage and the homeless presence wouldn't be as noticeable. However, you will have to put up with some homeless presence, and NIMBY's do not like that. So neighborhoods kick them out instead. When a neighborhood does try to create support for homeless, everyone else takes it as a sign that they don't need to try because they can just dump all of their homeless on the ones who do. This unfortunately stretches their limits, making it hard to manage and causing a larger mess for the neighborhood. Other neighborhoods see this mess and go "this is why we shouldn't do it or else we'll end up like them."

Tragedy of the Commons and what not. If every part of the city has homeless support so it's spread out evenly, the invidual burden for every center is lighter. There's no large scale homeless encampments, and the average person might see... a couple homeless people in their neighborhood. Unfortunately, people prefer to see zero homeless in their neighborhood, and so many places get all of the homeless.

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u/AnxietyMedical7498 9d ago

If every part of a city had soup kitchens and shelters, there would maybe be... a couple dozen at most per shelter

The people that operate restaurants would complain. How can we charge $20 for a sandwich when the soup kitchen gives them away for free.

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u/Think-Rule86 9d ago

This is part of why Seattle and California have such high homelessness. For Seattle in particular Idaho will literally bus them out of the state to Spokane, where they often just go ahead and go to Seattle. It's what I did.

Denver is another one - They have great resources compared to the 750 mile radius of desolation around it, so people flock there. The r/DenverCirclejerk "$5 butt stuff tent" meme has seeped into the real-world vernacular.

The problems are much more complex than that, of course, but this doesn't help.

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u/Ok-Chest-7932 9d ago

This analogy is better if the couch has a 10% chance of harming anyone who touches it. It isn't just effort required to lift the couch, the only ones who believe it should be lifted are those who don't have to touch it.

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u/UInferno- 9d ago

And yet the homeless exist and something must be done regardless. You can't "They don't deserve it" away.

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u/Ok-Chest-7932 9d ago

Right. And the people who don't have to touch the couch keep insisting that every solution anyone comes up with is unacceptable.

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u/UInferno- 9d ago

My entire preposition is we all touch the couch.

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u/Ok-Chest-7932 9d ago

Alright, you first.

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u/UInferno- 9d ago

I did say we all need to do it because if someone steps up everyone else will take it as approval to not bother. So there is no "me first" or "you first." My entire point is "we" (in this sense our taxes and neighborhoods) gotta pitch in to lighten the load.

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u/Ok-Chest-7932 9d ago

And my entire point is anyone who actually does it understands why everyone who already has doesn't want to. I've already been exposed to the couch, I understand why it doesn't get lifted. I used to think like you, before I moved to a city. Now it's your turn to find out.

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u/UInferno- 8d ago

I live in a city. No matter how badly you want to ignore the problem, it won't go away. You can bemoan and whine about how terrible putting up with it is, but at the end of the day, the homeless exist. We got to do something about it.

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u/Ok-Chest-7932 8d ago

Yeah, that's my point. We have to do something about it.

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u/Strength-InThe-Loins 9d ago

You are gravely overestimating how dangerous homeless people are. They're far more likely to be crime victims than criminals.

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u/Bluth_Business_Model 9d ago

Genuinely asking: who is committing these crimes against the homeless? Housed, or unhoused people?

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u/Strength-InThe-Loins 9d ago

My understanding is that all cops are housed, so it's mostly housed people. 

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u/Ok-Chest-7932 9d ago

My dude, I have been stalked, mugged, and had my house broken into by them in the space of 3 years. After moving, I have a gaggle of 12 of them camping in my apartment building's staircase most nights. The simple fact is that there are a group of dangerous people whom the law is not properly equipped to deal with, and the suburban middle class who never interacts with them is intent to cripple all resources aimed at dealing with them on the basis of facts and figures that do not properly represent the reality of crime.

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u/Strength-InThe-Loins 9d ago

So: three crimes in three years. And now you're living in close proximity to many of them with no further incident. 

The law is 'not equipped' to deal with them, so...what should be done? 

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u/Ok-Chest-7932 9d ago

Lmao 3 incidents in 3 years is not acceptable. Maybe you just live in a shit hole if you think that's fine.

Drug use and possession should have a real sentence, that'd solve 90% of the problem

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u/Strength-InThe-Loins 9d ago

Drug use and possession have real sentences, and it absolutely does not solve the problem: prisons are overcrowded, cops don't give a shit, and there's still tons of homeless people.

Even if we somehow magically eliminated all the drug use, the real problem (a society that thinks it's fine to discard and abuse people on a large scale as long as we don't see it happening) would still exist virtually unchanged.

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u/Ok-Chest-7932 8d ago

It's not a large scale though, it's the same handful of serial offenders. The vast majority of people who become homeless stop being homeless shortly after.

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u/Strength-InThe-Loins 8d ago

We're talking about two different problems. You're talking about the small number of serial offenders that personally bother you. I'm talking about the thousands and thousands of people who get fucked over by our inhuman system without ever really bothering anyone.

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u/Ok-Chest-7932 8d ago

Where do you live that has thousands of homeless people? Did you just get hit by a tsunami or something?

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u/etcpt 9d ago

This was going on in Utah a couple of years ago, not sure how it panned out. IIRC, Salt Lake City leadership was opposing a new shelter in the city limits because they felt that the city was doing everything and wanted other parts of the county to chip in. Then they got painted as anti-shelter, when they really just wanted more people to lift part of the couch.

That's a good metaphor, I'm going to hang onto that.

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u/thatisgoldjerrygold 9d ago

Why should I, a normal non mentally ill person who doesn’t take hard drugs, support a population that is made up largely of that demographic? It wasteful, and disrespectful to those who actually contribute to society. These people need help, but putting them somewhere for mental health aid is seen as cruel, and many homeless get pissed about the idea of being forced out of their addictions. There isn’t a feasible solution, so cities have decided to make it someone else’s problem. Honestly I’m glad. I just want to be able to walk to the local grocery store without being harassed for money. Maybe your area isn’t as bad though. It’s tragic for those who are trying to improve their life and aren’t crazy/an addict, but they are unfortunately a minority.

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u/UInferno- 9d ago

Why should I, a normal non mentally ill person who doesn’t take hard drugs, support a population that is made up largely of that demographic?

Because someone has to and as I just said, it's easier if everyone gives a little than try to make a few give a lot. I'd rather have a 100 neighborhoods with 5 homeless each than 5 neighborhoods with 100.

Also I don't believe in a "got mine" society. Why should I, a physically healthy individual pay for the healthcare of someone with congenital heart failure? Because I have human empathy, not to mention life is chaotic and it can happen to anyone. The economy fucking sucks, my guy. I personally have been dealing with long stretches of unemployment despite my degree and lack of debt and the only thing that kept me off the street is that I had family to support me.

Also just paying for housing is often found to be cheaper than alternatives like dumping them in each other's yards.

I just want to be able to walk to the local grocery store without being harassed for money.

Are you being harassed for money or do you just not like dealing with the thoughts that come with perceiving them?

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u/CarolinaAgent 9d ago

I live in Los Angeles. I have been harassed for money twice today - and the second guy kicked my bike (I was waiting for the sign to change to cross, so holding it, not sitting on it) as hard as he could and broke a spoke after I said no when he asked. This is all by 2pm today and I was only out for a couple hours.

They harass people for money all the time

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u/Strength-InThe-Loins 9d ago

So there's your answer: you, a mentally healthy person who doesn't do hard drugs, should support the homeless population because it's easier on you than getting harassed for money and having your bike damaged.

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u/CarolinaAgent 9d ago

Are you fucking kidding me dude? I earn well below the living wage in LA, it’s not like I have a bunch of cash to spare. I should just submit to having to give up my hard earned money that I need in order to avoid abuse from some random person? That is insane

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u/UInferno- 9d ago

Oh, so you're saying you yourself are on the brink of homelessness due to poverty? Maybe that should also be a motivation.

My exact point is it doesn't have to just be you. Or me. Or any individual but all of us together. You don't need to sign off on every check, but we gotta stop shifting the burden between each other. Stop rotating the homeless from neighborhood to neighborhood. Wasting people's time and effort just moving the problem for someone else to deal with. Because whether we like it or not, the homeless exist.

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u/CarolinaAgent 9d ago

You have to disperse homeless encampments man. The problem in LA is not the solo homeless dude sleeping on the ground or whatever as long as he’s not raving mad (which a decent number are, unfortunately.) It is the tent cities and areas like Skid Row which create large swathes where people just trying to live their lives cannot go because it is dangerous or will not go because it is a terrible atmosphere to be in.

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u/Strength-InThe-Loins 9d ago

Also, you should support the homeless population because, apparently you're very close to joining it.

In all seriousness, people in general should support each other, and especially support those who are less well off. That's what a healthy society does. You can tell we're not such a society, because so many people (most especially people far better off than you) see giving that support as some kind of impossible burden rather than a moral duty.

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u/CarolinaAgent 9d ago

How about that guy supports me by not breaking my bike for doing nothing to him at all?

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u/Strength-InThe-Loins 9d ago

He missed his chance. Clearly the only solution for that is for you to be as butt-hurt and mean-spirited as possible,  because that will surely solve everything. /s

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u/CarolinaAgent 9d ago

Im not butthurt - the person implied that homeless people don’t harass people for money. I shared my experience to tell them that it actually does happen. Then you said I should have just given the guy money to avoid him being a menace. Lmao your take is wild

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u/thatisgoldjerrygold 9d ago

So we should just submit to all the people begging? That only encourages it more. It doesn’t make them go away. If I give money one day, they’re in the same spot the next, if not with more people. If I made the money, I’m going to use it to support my family and I. Not some guy that lives under a bridge because he can’t even hold a fast food job.

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u/Strength-InThe-Loins 9d ago

If you feel the charitable impulse, sure.

But what we really need is policies to take care of such people so they don't end up begging on the street in the first place.

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u/etcpt 9d ago

If you believe that a person's value is based on what they contribute to society and can't see that every human has intrinsic worth and the right to be alive, you are on a very dark path that leads to terrible things. Check yourself before you wreck yourself.

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u/MrBigsStraightDad 9d ago

I'm sorry, but to me you're the mentally ill subhuman who does not contribute.

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u/thatisgoldjerrygold 9d ago

Because I don’t want to run a charity?

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u/MrBigsStraightDad 9d ago

In what way do you "run" a "charity" by living in a society that takes care of the people in it? When are you running it? When do you go to the office and clock in hours working on this charity?

Moreover why should *I* have to "run" the "charity" that supports you? Why should my tax dollars go to roads I don't drive on? Why should it go to schools my kids don't go to? Why should it treat tuberculosis not in my lungs? When we're all living in a smoking crater at the logical conclusion of the "fuck you got mine" pipeline I can't wait to see what brilliant plans you have to get us out.

Lets run a little thought experiment: People are hysterical about a homeless epidemic right? You seem to not like them, right? If there are homeless encampments downtown, where did those people come from? Were they born homeless, a part of some homeless human sub-species and now there's more of them because they're roaming into cities from the forests they're native to? Or is it possible that as we double the price of bread and half the earning power of average people over and over again that some people are going to be forced out of participation in regular society?

In any just world you'd dig ditches for pennies a day but sadly we don't live in a just world.

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u/Super_Mario_Luigi 9d ago

When in reality, the couch was light enough for two people to live. Everyone just wanted to give terrible ideas how to solve a straightforward problem.