r/NonCredibleDefense • u/OneFrenchman Representing the shed MIC • Mar 09 '25
European Joint Failures 🇩🇪 💔 🇫🇷 Ladies and gentlemen (and non-binary peeps), may I present to you the new pan-european support fighter, now that the US is removing F-16 tech support.
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u/Pretend_Cell_5200 Mar 09 '25
Get some Saab Arecis EW in it and we have a deal
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u/OneFrenchman Representing the shed MIC Mar 09 '25
As long as it's ITAR-free, it gets to be on the new RK fighter.
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u/SkyChikn1 Mar 12 '25
There’s a report from the mid 80s somewhere which talks about using a wingtip podded setup for the F-16 as the follow on for the F-4G. Never materialised for the F-16 but that’s the config the growlers and Eurofighter EK use.
What I’m saying is that your suggestion is borderline credible…
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Mar 09 '25
Ironically, the belgian and dutch vipers were license built in belgium und the netherlands AFAIK
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u/OneFrenchman Representing the shed MIC Mar 09 '25
Yes, SABCA (who also built Belgian and IIRC German F-104s but got massively shafted on the F-35 contracts) was the local manufacturer.
So we technically have all the specs available.
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u/Individual-Dot-9605 Mar 09 '25
Do we even have secret eu eyes? Been US fuck ducks so long its hard to breathe the free air. Ahhh
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u/AmericanNewt8 Top Gun but it's Iranians with AIM-54s Mar 09 '25
Or you can just buy all the parts from a "corrupt" ASELSAN supplier. The Dutch and Belgians may still have some of the technical base too.
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u/OneFrenchman Representing the shed MIC Mar 09 '25
Yes, but it's much more fun to think of how we would do for the F-16 as the Israelis did for the Mirage 5, and all the contracts from current users of the F-16 who don't trust the US anymore.
Also, Lockheed-Martin shall suffer for the crimes of General Dynamics: killing the F-20 Tigershark.
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u/Dahak17 terrorist in one nation Mar 09 '25
Nah, the fun part’ll be seeing the Brit’s, Dutch, fins, and maybe Canadians do this to the F35
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u/Mr_Gaslight Mar 10 '25
Britain and Isreal replaced the avionics of their F-35s.
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u/Dahak17 terrorist in one nation Mar 10 '25
Shocker. I’d be unsurprised to se a British run F35 line run in Europe
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u/OneFrenchman Representing the shed MIC Mar 10 '25
The Usual European production line for US jets in Europe was SABCA in Belgium, but they got massively shafter on the F-35 contracts. They're doing some bullshit maintenance jobs whereas up to the F-16 they did complete assembly and some manufacturing.
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u/Kirxas 3000 pagers of Hashem Mar 09 '25
My stock portfolio is heavily urging me to say this is a great idea
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Mar 09 '25
Are you all-in rhinemetall?
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u/Kirxas 3000 pagers of Hashem Mar 09 '25
Not quite, 30% rheinmetall, 20% indra, 20% dassault and the rest split between safran, rolls royce, saab and thales
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Mar 09 '25
[deleted]
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u/OneFrenchman Representing the shed MIC Mar 09 '25
The EJ200 actually fits and has basically the same thrust as the M53-P2.
But there aren't that many airframes left.
And it's not stupid enough to be the next Kfir.
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Mar 09 '25
[deleted]
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u/OneFrenchman Representing the shed MIC Mar 10 '25
The Mirage 3 is much narrower. There have been Mirage F1s powered by the M53 for the NATO fighter program won by the F-16, so one could probably make a Mirage F1 powered by the EJ230, at the price of airframe modifications as all series F1 used the ATAR 9K motor.
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u/AlfaKilo123 Mar 09 '25
Unrelated fun story;
So I was working for a student team building an electric airplane. But our motor delivery kept being delayed and delayed, so we looked into alternatives. One of them was Safran. So I looked on and on, trying to find data sheets and specs (they didn’t have any) and out of boredom decided to check what other things Safran makes.
From F/A-18 landing gears to A350 coffee machines. Guided bombs and latrine sections. There was no rhyme or reason to their catalogue. They just made fucking everything
Of course later I learned that many companies that have defence contracts also make other random stuff, like calculators or cars, especially in aviation. But ye Safran is wild
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u/Hughley_N_Dowd Mar 10 '25
I had a similar experience in ye olden times of the mid-90's.
We were doing a marketing exercise on consumer electronics in uni and my group got saddled with Siemens.
Anyways, at some point I got really, really bored and took to browsing their website. As it turned out, if it had any gears or needed solder - Siemens made it.
Cellphones and nuclear plants. Turbines, home appliances and railway locomotives. Siemens made it all...
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u/OneFrenchman Representing the shed MIC Mar 10 '25
Safran has been obsorbing many companies.
Most of their jet engines are SNECMA designs, their electronics come from SAGEM, andthey also bought all the non-boat stuff from the Zodiac company.
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u/dustofnations Mar 10 '25
One of the most advanced 3D design and simulation software packages (e.g. FEA), SolidWorks is/was designed by Dassault Aviation, and then spun out into Dassault Systèmes. It is used in many fields completely unrelated to aviation, but that initial aviation use-case was enough to spur the investment — the results of which are now used commonly all over the place.
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u/AlfaKilo123 Mar 11 '25
Catia v5 my beloved
I also love how Dassault Systemes social media constantly makes jokes that they do not make the Rafael
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u/ObviouslyTriggered Mar 09 '25
Wait is the US actually stopping support contracts?
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Mar 09 '25
Yes, Ukraine no longer has supplies for the F-16s and they have blocked an electronic warfare system to avoid radar missiles more easily.
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u/Sanderhh Mar 10 '25
Surely the system is not blocked but just updated jammer profiles to be loaded into the built in jammer and any AN/ALQ-184 they might have?
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u/CircuitryWizard Genetically Modified Combat Banderite Mar 09 '25
Who exactly is being cut off from support?
As far as I know, Ukraine has already been cut off from all support, including intelligence support.
And thanks to the choice of US citizens, the US has become an extremely unreliable partner and one of the potential enemies.34
u/OneFrenchman Representing the shed MIC Mar 09 '25 edited Mar 09 '25
It's been announced.
Considering they've already cut intelligence sharing and removed access to MAXTAR imagery, I'd say it's probable they will follow up on it.
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u/ekdaemon ADATS for Ukraine Mar 09 '25
Too credible. Much too credible. But I am drooling.
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u/FullMetalField4 Mar 11 '25
Only credible up to the point of trying to get it made.
Then two of the countries pull out for one reason or another and the rest dawdle around until the project is eventually just closed off like dozens of others like it
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u/what_did_you_forget Mar 09 '25
How do you know what parts go in and who manufactures them
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u/OneFrenchman Representing the shed MIC Mar 09 '25
I know way too much about the MIC to be honest.
It's a blessing and a curse.
Did you know Klimov can build a version of the RD-33 that can replace the ATAR 9K? That means we could have had super-fast Vautour bombers.
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u/dasBaums Mar 09 '25
I want an SSTO ASAT Vehicle with saber engines.
KSP is definitely close to reality. Kerbin is basicly earth
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u/Appropriate-Count-64 Mar 09 '25
The EJ200? Isn’t that engine tiny compared to the GE the F16 normally has?
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u/OneFrenchman Representing the shed MIC Mar 09 '25
I'm litteraly pasting stuff in paint man. Don't ask too much. Let's just scale it up to fit.
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u/Appropriate-Count-64 Mar 09 '25
How have you not been hired by Lockheed or NG yet?
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u/OneFrenchman Representing the shed MIC Mar 09 '25
I was at Northrop but seen as they are only there so Lockheed-Martin doesn't get anti-trusted into oblivion, business has been slow.
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u/Liguehunters FDGO Ultra Mar 09 '25
Scale it up to fit. Revolutionary
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u/OneFrenchman Representing the shed MIC Mar 09 '25
Works in Paint, should work IRL. Engineering is easy.
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u/Thewaltham The AMRAAM of Autism Mar 09 '25
Ah yes, but there's probably room in there for two of them! I'm sure that'll just bolt right up!
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u/HowlingWolven why are all the hot girls from 🏳️⚧️ Mar 09 '25
Guys, gals, and nonbinary pals.
Also go with the 230.
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u/LostInTheVoid_ Suffer not the fascist to live Mar 10 '25
Rolls-Royce: Allow us to cook.
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u/OneFrenchman Representing the shed MIC Mar 10 '25
Safran Engines are being too obtuse, let's have RR get a crack at it.
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u/AlphaMarker48 For the Republic! Mar 09 '25
The stupid things that the orange thing are doing burns.
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u/IM_REFUELING Mar 10 '25
The EJ200 is a fine engine, no doubt about that. But it's also not even close to the same class of engine size as the F110/F100 that powers the Viper. It's about 2/3 the size and thrust. Even if you tried swapping the EJ200 for the gripen's F414, you're still out a couple thousand pounds of thrust because the engine is smaller.
The US has had the market cornered on big powerful low bypass turbofans for 2 generations now, and the margin has only been growing with the F119 and F135 engines, which are absolute monsters. The closest competitor would be the Chinese WS-10, which itself uses an 'overclocked' core from reverse engineered F100/CFM-56 tooling, and is still a big step down in reliability from the genuine article. Either that or Russian engines, but I doubt the Russians would care to share.
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u/OneFrenchman Representing the shed MIC Mar 10 '25
If you think this idea has any practical reality behind it, boy do I have a bridge to sell you!
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u/Thermodynamicist Mar 09 '25
Or just put the EJ200 into a Gripen...
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u/OneFrenchman Representing the shed MIC Mar 10 '25
There apparently have been plans to put the EJ230 into the Gripen, to stop the US from blocking export contracts (ITAR yeah!). I'm guessing those plans have been back to the drawing board last week.
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u/thecartman85 Mar 09 '25
I do not understand why murikans decided to wake up Europe.. did they forget that we literally conquered the planet and literally created they sad excuse for a country? 🍊🤡
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u/91stCataclysm Torx dildo of consequences has been ordered in bulk Mar 10 '25
Calling it "reverse Kfir" is just... *chef's kiss*
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u/warfaceisthebest Mar 10 '25
UK can do the most funny UNO reverse card and suspend all US jet exporting because they are all using Martin Becker.
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u/OneFrenchman Representing the shed MIC Mar 10 '25
I mean, the best UNO reverse would be to denounce the lease on Diego Garcia ans ask the US forces to leave, but that one is good as well.
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u/KebabG Mar 09 '25
wheres the GLORIOUS Turkish MIC Parts ccccccccccccccccccccccc
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u/OneFrenchman Representing the shed MIC Mar 09 '25
Turkey be not European.
Also we need to sell stuff to the Greeks.
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u/KebabG Mar 09 '25
They can buy our stuff ;)
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u/OneFrenchman Representing the shed MIC Mar 09 '25
I'm pretty sure they don't want stuff that can be turned off next time they fight you guys.
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u/Levinicus_Rex Mar 10 '25
Is this the European version of the Nesher?
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u/OneFrenchman Representing the shed MIC Mar 10 '25
The Nesher is a copy of the Mirage-5, it's more the idea of making an equivalent to the Kfir.
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u/oripash Ain't strong, just long. We'll eat it bit by bit. Like a salami. Mar 11 '25
“Reverse Kfir Project”
Love it
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u/RobinOldsIsGod The Yangtze River Dolphin will be avenged! Mar 10 '25
F-16 Empty Weight: 8,260 kg/16,285 lbs
F-16 A2A Combat Weight: 12,000 kg/25,281 lbs
F16 MTOW: 19,187 kg/37,500 lbs
Pratt & Whitney F100 Max Dry Thrust: 89 kN/20,100 lbf
Pratt & Whitney F100 Max AB Thrust: 145 kN/32,500 lbf
Eurojet EJ200 maximum dry thrust: 60 KN/13,500 lbf
Eurojet EJ200 max thrust (with AB): 90 KN/20,200 lbf
Good luck.
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u/gottymacanon Mar 11 '25
So we fantasizing now? Try again as most of them doesnt fit.
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u/OneFrenchman Representing the shed MIC Mar 11 '25
I think you missed the part where this is the subreddit for stupid memes that don't make sense.
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u/Consistent_Course413 Jun 11 '25
Besides the engine, turkey is doing all of this things. In the ÖZGUR modernisation they will replace the radar with an MURAD Aesa Radar, turkish electronics, turkish electronic warfare and turkish air to air missiles.
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u/EspacioBlanq Mar 09 '25
Who will provide the screw on canards tho?