r/NonCredibleDefense • u/GripAficionado • Jul 29 '25
Arsenal of Democracy š½ M9 > M17/M18
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u/Penguixxy Raytheons Genetically Engineered Trans Cat Girl Jul 29 '25
the biggest problem with the m9 is that so many were shot to shit, and the us army just.... didn't get new replacement parts for them.
fantastic handgun, but after 20,000 rounds you gotta at least change the barrel and get new magazines.
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u/identify_as_AH-64 Direct Impingement > anything else Jul 29 '25
If I'm remembering correctly, a lot of the M9 reliability issues aside from worn-out frames was the fact that the DoD wasn't purchasing good quality mags for them.
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u/GripAficionado Jul 30 '25
Cheaped out on mags and then the blame fell on the gun, it's a shame.
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u/identify_as_AH-64 Direct Impingement > anything else Jul 30 '25
Which is crazy because during the Individual Carbine Competition (ICC) they had all these fancy rifles that outperformed the M4 but stuck with it because they discovered that if you replaced ancient-ass mags, swapped the barrel to a SOCOM profile and added an ambi safety you got yourself a good rifle.
Like why didn't they follow suit with the M9?
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u/Mouse-Keyboard Aug 02 '25
The year is 2525. The DoD has just completed an 82nd competition to replace the M4, and decided to reject the bids and continue with the existing rifle.
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u/AlliedMasterComp Jul 30 '25
That and the decade they spent putting +p+ ammo through a frame only designed to support +p ammo. Causing rapid catastrophic disassembly.
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u/Penguixxy Raytheons Genetically Engineered Trans Cat Girl Jul 29 '25 edited Jul 29 '25
yeah iirc mec gar are the contracted supplier, even now.
aka some of the WORST mags on the market, mec gar and KCI (korean company) are like bottom of the barrel bad.
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u/Ryce_Cubed Jul 30 '25
MecGar is actually one of the good magazine suppliers. The problematic ones were the old Checkmate and Airtronic magazines that were issued out due to how abbrassive their parkerization was.
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u/RecReeeee Jul 30 '25
Wasnāt even that entirely, there was a rumor the mag springs sucked, so officers throughout the military had the brilliant idea to have troops stretch the springs, which actually caused them to be week and not feed.
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u/Ryce_Cubed Jul 30 '25
Explains the POS spring tension on my issued mags. Thankfully I brought my own personal Beretta OEM mags whenever I was issued an m9
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u/RecReeeee Jul 30 '25
Nice, interesting tid bit is mecgar makes all the OEM magazines for beretta nowadays.
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u/Stunning_Bird6106 Jul 30 '25
MecGar was an original supplier and "too expensive". MecGar has a great reputation for mags and has been an OEM supplier for many firearm manufacturers.
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u/RecReeeee Jul 30 '25
MEC-Gar are the good ones, it was other contract mags that got tampered with that caused issues
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u/RecReeeee Jul 30 '25
A lot of the issues were due to the mag springs being stretched because there was a rumor the springs were weak. Which actually made the springs weak, and caused the issues.
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u/ARandomDistributist Jul 31 '25
Sounds like Military Kneecapping like what happened with the M16 in Nam.
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u/Man_with_the_Fedora 3000 techpriests of the Omnissiah Jul 30 '25
the us army just.... didn't get new replacement parts for them.
But think of all maintenance dollars saved! So many OER bullets generated!
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u/Apsm2000 Jul 31 '25
Magazines were dirt cheap(literally) when it was issued. So it had a flaw which sand got into the magazine and caused malfunctions.
The gun is still perfect in the form of M9A4.
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u/Penguixxy Raytheons Genetically Engineered Trans Cat Girl Jul 31 '25
m9a4 my beloved š©µš©·š¤š©·š©µ (also the PX4 storm, i will die on a hill defending that smol pasta blasta baby)
im really upset i couldnt get one before my gooberment stopped handgun transfers. (šØš¦)
the beretta competition trigger is just.... buttery smooth~
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u/PurpD420 Jul 29 '25
Itās honestly impressive how poorly designed the 320 is, there were definitely HUGE bribes to get this rammed through procurement
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u/GripAficionado Jul 29 '25
The fact they didn't even go through the full testing before adopting the gun sure looks suspicious now in hindsight.
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u/AuspiciousApple Jul 29 '25
Uhhh, look at all these naggers coming out of the wood work now. Who could have known that testing a innocuous item like a *check notes* fire arm could have been important to avoid *checks notes* people dying? /s
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u/GripAficionado Jul 29 '25
Without the /s that almost sounded like the PR SIG tried running a while back.
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u/PrimateOnAPlanet Jul 29 '25
naggers
Dude itās 2025, you canāt be saying that.
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u/BitOfaPickle1AD Dirty Deeds Thunderchief Jul 29 '25
AAAAANNNDDD the M9 was cheaper while the new ones were designed to the Army's specifications and those idiots still said no.
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u/jmacintosh250 Jul 29 '25
It was cheaper to upgrade the beaten up pistols. The Army wanted new ones and the new M9s were a bit more expensive to buy.
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u/BitOfaPickle1AD Dirty Deeds Thunderchief Jul 29 '25
They were still cheaper than the Glocks and Sigs from what I've read. Even then the Glock and Beretta have a VERY good reputation.
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u/Ovvr9000 Jul 29 '25
If the UCP debacle taught us anything, itās that procurement often selects the worst possible option. SIG knew what they were doing.
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u/GripAficionado Jul 29 '25
SIG seems to have nailed the procurements given the questionable adoption of the M7 and the M17/M18.
At least the M250 seems like it's actually good, same goes for the MG 338.
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u/jmacintosh250 Jul 29 '25
Thatās the thing: the M7 and M250 were a package deal. Sig was one of 2 competitors who produced an MG and rifle to specifications. Is it a surprise they got picked? The other wasnāt that much different.
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u/Gender_is_a_Fluid Jul 29 '25
And according to lawsuits, the M250 was stolen research from General Dynamics.
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u/Rushing-Recruit Jul 30 '25
This!!! We need justice for my beloved LWMMG (I know itās the True Velocity RM338 now)
Also the unlike the LWMMG, the M250 doesnāt have a quick change barrel which makes it worthless in my non-credible opinion.
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u/MandolinMagi Jul 30 '25
Does it need one? It's a fireteam/squad level weapon, are you going to carry enough ammo to need a barrel change at a sane rate of fire?
How much ammo do you expect a fire team to haul?
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u/BLKCandy Jul 31 '25
It is still an MMG though. So, it can absolutely doubles as a platoon MG or any static/dedicated MG team somewhere.
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u/Rushing-Recruit Jul 31 '25 edited Jul 31 '25
In my (rather limited) experience and my knowledge, itās preferable to have the squad MG be quick change, as protracted engagements can quickly ruin the effective accuracy of the weapon due to barrel heat.
With a quick change, your assistant pops and swaps the barrel, you get back to business whilst your hot barrel(s) can cool more effectively. With a non-quick change you choose between laying down less effective fire, or waiting for it to cool off and leaving your squad without one of their best tools (for infantry engagements at least).
My biggest concern comes from the insane barrel pressure of the 6.8mm round, and how quickly itās been alleged that the rifles are chewing through their own barrels.
Still gives issues to anyone trying to run the MG as a static or dedicated fire support weapons
Obviously time will tell whether or not the feature is really necessary, and if it does fine without it, then thatāll be neat! Iāve probably just got the aversion to change that a lot of people interested and involved in military stuff developā¦
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u/Gender_is_a_Fluid Jul 31 '25
Crazy how everyone warned that the pressure would eat the barrels quickly, SIG (who clearly never lies!) said they had solved that problem, and then the problem wasnāt solved?!!
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u/Gender_is_a_Fluid Jul 31 '25
The RM338 is sooo good. Watching someone walk forwards with it shouldered and do accurate full auto fire was wild.
Its a shame they made an amazing medium machine gun rather than a light, but tbh looking at it Iād rather have delayed the competition and request they make a version of it chambered for 6.8 rather than plow forwards.
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u/Cthulhuhoop Jul 29 '25
worst possible option
You're looking at this all wrong, they're not bidding to produce the best product, they're bidding for the minimum viable product.
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u/Man_with_the_Fedora 3000 techpriests of the Omnissiah Jul 30 '25
minimum viable product.
God, if I never hear that fuckin' phrase again it'll be too soon.
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u/it_helper Jul 30 '25
I bought my 365 ten years ago and love it. Is the 320 really that bad?
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u/BitOfaPickle1AD Dirty Deeds Thunderchief Jul 29 '25
I snagged one after my contract ended but after all these shenanigans going, I went right back to the Beretta.
We were too harsh to you, M9.
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u/GripAficionado Jul 29 '25
Any bad reputation the M9 got pales in comparison to the mess that is the M17/M18.
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u/BitOfaPickle1AD Dirty Deeds Thunderchief Jul 29 '25
It was all due to lack of spare parts. The M9 I had ran like a champ and I always qualified expert with it.
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u/Narrow_Vegetable_42 3000 grey Kinetic Energy Penetrators of Pistorius Jul 29 '25
How can you lack spare parts for one of the most common service arms? Isn't this a trivial issue to solve..? Any insights on this?
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u/k890 Natoist-Posadism Jul 29 '25
A bulk of M9 pistols was manufactured in 1980s, then they were used ever since and then a lot of them were sent to multiple conflict zones. This pistols are like 30-40 years of constant use and require probably sending back to factory.
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u/Hapless_Operator Jul 29 '25
I had the same experience as u/BitOfAPickle1AD up there.
I had two M9s and an M9A1 issued, and all three ran flawlessly. Same was true of most of the weapons in our battalion, though, even the Mk19s.
A lot of it comes down to command climate. Our BC rode our armorers hard, didn't have us destructively cleaning weapons, and spent a ton of fundraising budget on fresh parts out of the national stock for refurbs and replacements.
Your unit is going to be good at shit your commander cares about. Some of them place a high priority on weapon refurb prior to deployment.
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u/uber_ted Jul 30 '25 edited Jul 30 '25
Fuck thatās based. We have so much dogshit. Most PEQs donāt hold a zero at all. Ton of deadlined crewserveds.
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u/Hapless_Operator Jul 30 '25
This might blow your mind even harder, but it was a Marine infantry unit.
We stepped off each deployment with the entire battalion's armory overflow pushed down to the rifle companies, and those pushed to the platoons, so for all the heavier stuff not currently in use by Weapons Company and the H&S company meant the rifle platoons had a bunch of 240s, handguns, M2s, and Mk19s available for discretionary use on patrols, static positions, and gun trucks, along with the extra load of thermals and night optics.
Dude had Surefire M300s with pressure switches on every rifle in the line companies to beat it all.
GWOT at its peak was buck wild.
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u/Narrow_Vegetable_42 3000 grey Kinetic Energy Penetrators of Pistorius Jul 29 '25
Thanks for the insight. I didn't think maintenance was unknown technology to you guys
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u/BitOfaPickle1AD Dirty Deeds Thunderchief Jul 29 '25
Our pistols were old. Our rifles were Colts that had the 3 round burst that were converted back to auto.
Super old.
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u/SamtheCossack Luna Delenda Est Jul 30 '25
I mean, qualifying expert on a pistol is a bit like getting an attendance award in a prison. You have to try pretty hard to NOT get it.
That said, my M9 was technically fine too. But because the military has a significant population of mouthbreathers who can't wrap their head around the fact the M9s bolt doesn't work like the M4s, it produces a ridiculous amount of NDs. My first deployment, as we were doing the RIP, one of the guys from the incoming unit accidentally fired his M9 while they were loading up for a mission. Hit one of our guys right in the throat, and he died in seconds. And sadly, that isn't nearly as rare as it should be. Any service pistol is going to be carried by tens of thousands of people, and several thousand of those are going to be morons, so any opportunities for safety issues are going to be amplified a LOT.
I am not really worried for any weapon system about its safety when it is handled by someone who treats the weapon properly, cleans it, maintains it, exercises muzzle discipline, etc. But you see a staggering amount of soldiers resting the muzzles of their M4s on their own crotch as they eat, and THAT is the sort of idiots we have to design weapons around.
The M9 wasn't particularly accurate, but it was far more accurate than a service pistol generally needs to be. I don't want one personally, but I wasn't really ever concerned about it being capable enough if I ever needed to use it. I WAS worried about safety issues killing my Soldiers though, and the fact the M17 is worse is... something.
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u/BitOfaPickle1AD Dirty Deeds Thunderchief Jul 30 '25 edited Jul 30 '25
That's nuts about the ND, and sorry you had to deal with that. We had a friendly fire incident involving two tanks near us. It was 1-67 AR and they fired two main gun rounds at a friendly tank during NTC. Thankfully nobody was killed, but the gunner for the tank that fired went to basic with myself and that dude was a classic knuckle dragger. I'm definitely on the same page as you.
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u/SamtheCossack Luna Delenda Est Jul 30 '25
As someone who carried an M9 my entire time it, it is WILD that this gun is still a downgrade. The M9 was not good. I really don't understand how the Army, who has a choice to choose literally any handgun, and takes decades to make a decision, still messes it up this bad.
... ok, I lied. I know exactly how and why they are messing it up this bad, and it is because LTG (R) McOligarchwannabe took a job for a half million dollars a year with Sig Sauer, and all they ask him to do is play golf with his buddy, who happens to be in charge of small arms procurement... The only thing that makes US Military procurement look better is comparing it to... *Gestures at literally everyone elses military procurement*. You would have thought by this point SOMEBODY would have cracked the code on doing military procurement right.
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u/HowNondescript My Waiver has a Waiver Jul 30 '25
The M9 was hated in service because the people using it were using ancient beat to shit hand-me-downs that got used to knock in tent pegs. Every ex military guy I've seen get out and buy a new M9 has had one of those maybe I treated you too harshly epiphaniesĀ
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u/UmmmokthenIguess Jul 29 '25
bribes to get this rammed thru procurement
Hey Iāve seen this before!!
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u/Turtledonuts Dear F111, you were close to us, you were interesting... Jul 31 '25
Nobody was paying attention because the idiots running rifle procurement decided on a battle rifle with a proprietary cartridge and a smart scope.Ā
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u/hiroshi_tea Jul 29 '25
From what I remember, the M9A3 didn't fit the modularity criteria that the DoD wanted, while Glock was severely undercut by SIG when it came to price.
That doesn't mean I don't think there was any dirty money involved though. DoD contract competitions have always had a messy look to them.
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u/Ovvr9000 Jul 29 '25
Imagine being obsessed with modularity that nobody ever takes advantage of.
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u/BrainDamage2029 Jul 29 '25 edited Jul 29 '25
This.
Pistols are mostly irrelevant in a military context, used only "seriously" by MP's and security watchstanders. For everyone else its a strong situation of "for whatever reason an M4 isn't something you'll carry but we gave a pistol to you because its better than foul language or throwing a rock."
It just has to work. Full stop. Hell I'd argue a super-subcompact PDW designed for holster carry makes more sense than even buying them at all.
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u/GripAficionado Jul 29 '25
And the units where the modularity might actually matter aren't covered by this anyway and can use whatever they want.
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u/BrainDamage2029 Jul 29 '25
Exactly.
Anecdotally the MP units do actually issue each person the same gun every day they check it out. So you just slap the small frame on for small people. This was actually a slight issue with the M9 being a chunky grip. Small people with small hands were working around that.....but one can also argue how much does that really matter for the logistics issue of it all.
But like...I was Navy so ship RFI issues watchstanders whatever gun is first in the rack. So they were definitely just putting the medium grip on anything anyway.
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u/GripAficionado Jul 29 '25
Even if taking into account logistics, how much more complicated would it really have gotten if they adopted another handgun for people with smaller hands who needed it? Can't imagine it would have been that much of an issue, compared to adopting a brand new gun where the 'modularity' is barely ever used anyway. Can't imagine it would have been that expensive or complicated.
Then again adopting the Glock would have solved all of it, so there was always a better option than the SIG.
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u/BrainDamage2029 Jul 29 '25 edited Jul 29 '25
Even if taking into account logistics, how much more complicated would it really have gotten if they adopted another handgun for people with smaller hands who needed it?
Logistically as an amourer for the entire armory or RFI inventory in a non special unit? Huge pain in the ass. Far better to just give everyone the same medium frame. I can easily see a "sorry new check-in MASR Sailor. All our small framed pistols are accounted for. Here's your XL."
As another example, I don't know how every base does this but many services have a core group of MP's. But some gate check positions or surge capacity during some sort of heightened threat status is actually grabbing servicemembers from other units on the base for the gate, etc. Like we always had shore duty sailors show up, get issued a pistol and do gate duty for 4 hours in the morning rush and the entire base commands would rotate people in so we can open up all lanes into the base. Anyway those guys all get or share the random pistols from the back.
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u/humblenyrok Jul 29 '25
MP7 as a sidearm would go hard
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u/SparklingLimeade Jul 30 '25
It's really funny to learn the history of the PDW concept and how it's never really been used that way despite all indications showing that it would probably have all the advantages advertised.
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u/MandolinMagi Jul 30 '25
I'd just buy Glock 19s, they're the right size that everyone should be able to use it without being overly large or too small.
Full size handguns have zero place in the military outside of maybe SOF,
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u/Cliffinati Jul 29 '25
A 9mm MP7 is perfect for them.
It's bulky for a pistol when folded but unfolded is a proper SMG
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u/BrainDamage2029 Jul 29 '25
Eh....still a bit chunky. Massive in the holster. Can't really draw to shoot. Uses odd ammo. While we've come around on issuing full-auto being fine for normal infantry after experimenting with burst in the M16A2. Actually giving a full auto SMG bullet hose to random other troops and officers who definitely don't won't enough trigger time and practice probably is a dumb idea.
I was thinking about the dozen or so turn a pistols into a stocked PDW concepts.
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u/Cliffinati Jul 29 '25
That's why I said make something like the MP7 but in 9mm, you can make it semi auto only if want as well
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u/peppermintaltiod Jul 29 '25
I'm not entirely sure why pistols are even still issued to anyone that isn't an MP or a gate guard. Why does your average infantry even need one? Let alone a modular one?
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u/RavenholdIV Jul 29 '25
They're a big deal for tankers. There's not room for the guns of all 4 crew inside. If anything super catastrophic happens and they have to bail and then immediately flee, they won't have their rifles.
P90 was supposed to fix that but hey Germany fucked that up so here we are.
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u/dangerbird2 Jul 29 '25
Of course, this really reinforces the fact that sidearms are only useful in for policing and emergency situations, and are marginally useful at that, and spending bazillions of dollars on replacing them with fancy modular guns is a massive waste of time.
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u/RavenholdIV Jul 29 '25
Frfr just make something that works ffs it's just a pistol. We've been doing automatic pistols for over 100 years just... dont fuck it up smh. And yet... should have just bought a new batch of M9s :/
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u/LuukTheSlayer š³š±š³š±A VOC ship can take out a super carrierš³š±š³š± Jul 29 '25
P90 was made by FN, a belgian company
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u/RavenholdIV Jul 29 '25
Germany refused to adopt 5.7mm or the P90 (industrial protectionist shenanigans) so the project was canned. The official process failed. I guess you gotta ram a new standard down everyone's throats like it's 7.62 all over again to get anything done on a continental scale.
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u/No_News_1712 Jul 29 '25
I'm curious, would the P90 have worked with 9mm? A redesign would be in order, but would that have made it more appealing to NATO?
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u/RavenholdIV Jul 29 '25
Maybe? It's a much thicker, shorter cartridge. The whole gun would change in dimensions given how the magazine is integrated. Militaries view 9mm as useless on the modern battlefield and relegate it to bottom of the barrel emergency weapons. I think the idea is that they dont want to buy something way more expensive and bulky than a handgun while still viewing this piece of kit as no better than a handgun. 5.7 has a lot more juice behind it and is the secret sauce to making an SMG that militaries dont hate.
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u/SamtheCossack Luna Delenda Est Jul 30 '25
Lot of valid reasons. I was a tanker, and we got M9s (And M4s), and later I was an Infantry XO, and I still got an M9 (Because I was an officer), and later I was a Police Advisor in Afghanistan, and carried an M9...
The Military isn't all infantry engagements. In fact, it is mostly NOT Infantry engagements. And lots of people have valid reasons to have a gun, but for practical reasons don't have an M4 all the time. I always had an M4 available, and usually I brought both, but sometimes I had to go without (Like it isn't polite to carry an M4 meeting President Ghani, and so forth). Out on Patrol, I carried an M4 of course, but also had an M9. Unlikely I would ever use it, but I certainly didn't mind having it.
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u/Middle-Papaya Jul 30 '25
All the military jobs that line up with "office job" are good candidates for a pistol. Consider the green on blue threat in Afghanistan as one reason.
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u/GripAficionado Jul 29 '25
The modularity criteria seems weird when they picked the P320 over the Glock, if they truly wanted modular, what better option than the Glock? That always felt like more rigging the criteria in order to get one candidate to be able to win.
And not even running the full tests before adopting the gun looks really bad and sketchy now in hindsight given all the issues the P320 has.
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u/CMMVS09 Jul 29 '25
Really couldnāt have gone with a gun thatās used by nearly every single law enforcement agency in the country.
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u/GripAficionado Jul 29 '25 edited Jul 29 '25
I wonder if we'll ever find out how many bribes SIG had to pay out to get the P320 acquired over the better Glock 19X or the cheaper Beretta M9A3. The M9A3 which it turns out would also have been way better than the mess that is the P320 given all it's accidental discharges, discharges while being dropped and now recently fatally shooting an airman.
It's so ridiculously bad, any slight tension on the trigger while moving the slide causes it to fire.
Also the fact that it was adopted before it went through the full endurance and environmental testing sure looks sketchy in hindsight. Glock was right with its protest...
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u/ratpowered454 Jul 30 '25
I will note that I copied his test with both of my P320's and I did not experience this failure.
I'm thinking it's only going to be certain pistols that have too loose of a tolerance. Which might be worse, since there's no way to guarantee the failure won't occur in the future unless you replace parts early, but that might also lead to this failure -_-
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u/GripAficionado Jul 30 '25
I imagine it would have been discovered earlier if it was present on all guns, but therein lies the danger as you say. You never know if it's something that will increase with further wear, or requires bad tolerances from the factory to begin with. Having a gun you can't fully trust... That's quite scary.
His second video theorizes a bit that the poor design and poor tolerances on the slide might increase the wear on the sear and that might be a contributing factor to this issue.
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u/ratpowered454 Jul 30 '25
It kinda sucks it has come to this. I liked how it felt in the hand and shot, and I thought it was a good (good, not great) alternative to the Glock family of pistols. But now it can't really be anything but a safe queen/range toy until they fix this. And who knows if they ever will or if people will give the pistol a second chance.
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u/TheJudge20182 3000 Black Essexs of Nimitz Jul 29 '25
Thanks Military procurement. What a great "upgrade". They make no sense 75% of the time
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u/Kan4lZ0n3 Jul 30 '25
Am I the only one old enough to remember all the complaining when the M9s replaced a bunch of old, rattly, frequently refurbished M1911A1s, and in turn were barely serviceable bags of loose parts by the time they were taken out of service?
Internetās becoming a place for forgetful, unthinking nostalgia goaded with glee by actors sowing discord and holding up progress.
If thereās a problem, fix it. Stop pining for a past that was never as great as itās remembered.
Ok, off the soapbox.
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u/Mango-Bob Jul 30 '25
This is how I became a CZ hipster. I drink pour overs, stir my tea with G19s and parse the nuance of flat vs curved triggers.
I spend hours polishing my feed ramp if you know what I meanā¦.
75s have the bludgeon weight of the M9, plus I can hold my pinky out on a melee.
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u/des0619 Jul 29 '25
All the DoD had to do to improve the M9 is to make new ones. Most US milspec M9s have been trashed from age alone since they have been around since the 80s with minimal maintenance.
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u/MidWesternBIue Jul 29 '25
Or they could adopt the Glock, that's not only cheaper, but doesn't have the downside of performing worse in non permissive environments
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u/Elegant_Individual46 Strap Dragonfire to HMS Victory Jul 29 '25
Still donāt know why they went with both 17 and 18
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u/MidWesternBIue Jul 29 '25
That was specifically the Army wanting the 17 and everyone else wanting the 18.
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u/Elegant_Individual46 Strap Dragonfire to HMS Victory Jul 30 '25
Yeah that I donāt fully understand
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u/raven00x cover me in cosmoline Jul 29 '25
the last panel should be "I have a VP position that needs to be filled after you retire."
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u/Killericon CF-35s plz Jul 29 '25
Reminder that Stonetoss is a Nazi.
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u/HonestSophist Jul 30 '25
Hey, the man makes good templates. He's the Hugo Boss of good layouts and shit jokes.
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u/HalseyTTK Jul 29 '25
It was cheaper. Honestly, even if it was a bit worse, but just as safe, it would have been fine. Handguns aren't that important in the military. Unfortunately, if was not as safe.
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u/Old-Worldliness7171 Jul 29 '25
a couple days ago i heard a story of a 4channer that had a unintentional discharge with an p320 and didn't go to hospital... it was with images btw
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u/ThePickleConnoisseur Jul 29 '25 edited Jul 29 '25
From the videos Iāve seen, the slide was made bad and causes it to easily jiggle and set it off. Then after everyone said itās shit, Sig gaslighted them until someone died
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u/GripAficionado Jul 29 '25
Yeah, SIG was running damage control rather than trying to fix the issue.
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u/ThePickleConnoisseur Jul 29 '25
Which is insane like everyone doesnāt have a phone that can record evidence for an expensive lawsuit. This should be criminal negligence
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u/GripAficionado Jul 29 '25
The moment when police department started carrying them there started to circulating videos of the accidental discharges. At this point SIG has just put their head in the sand for the longest time.
I believe there's more than a few lawsuits against SIG at this point, not sure the progress of them though.
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u/BlueNasca Jul 29 '25
I wanted to like it, especially over a Glock, but it sounds overwhelmingly from people who would know better than I that its an unsafe piece of shit
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u/flaques Hololive Self-Defense Forces Jul 30 '25
please make the M9A4 the new standard
a 9mm default hammer-fire threaded barrel pistol
pls god
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u/Happy_Error835 3000 Mark XXXIII of the concordiat Jul 30 '25
Never had a ND with my 229DAK ... not that it was fun to shoot or anything. Always qual'd though. G19s are just fine though.
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u/michele_romeo Jul 30 '25
Brah what's wrong with the people shitting on the beretta m9?
It's even called PB 91 F(Full) S(Security) for a reason
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u/AlliedMasterComp Jul 30 '25
From handguns that used to explode, to new handguns that just go off.
Just big army things.
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u/JammuS_ Jul 31 '25
Lowest bidder due to low quality Indian made MIM parts, add some dealings under the table and sell at a high markup for civilians. Genius really
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u/7orly7 Jul 29 '25
My guess: Either a design flaw or Sig went full Boeing and started to cut corners of the production process quality which resulted in bad tolerances in parts they thought wouldn't compromise the gun and did
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u/CatboiWaifu_UwU Jul 29 '25
I thought it was a flaw in initial production runs that they did a recall for.
Be interesting to see stats for remanufactured/fixed sigs, if the air force has held onto their early production 320s without getting them fixed, it could explain the recent tragedy
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u/Tayloria13 Jul 30 '25
At this point M1911> M18 just because God's Gun doesn't go off in your holster.
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u/sentinelthesalty F-15 Is My Waifu Jul 29 '25
I still don't understand why the fuck they are still issuing handguns anyways. If neighter of them can penertate armor they are all equally useless.
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u/a_europeran Jul 29 '25
iirc, its a stand in for a knife in a shitty situation. knife wont go through hard armor, so neither does the pistol, i guess?
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u/GripAficionado Jul 29 '25
Not like the Russians have armor anyway, but the individuals issued handguns aren't normally expected to encounter front line units with armor etc. Not to mention how a handgun sure is better than nothing.
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u/Cliffinati Jul 29 '25
Vehicle Crews, MPs, Medical Staff, guards etc all carry pistols as part of their kit
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u/Far-Yellow9303 Jul 29 '25
A lot of it is in case we end up in another situation like Afghanistan.
Afghanistan was a shithole.
There was a strong local "honor culture" in some areas that lead to locals who were cooperating or being voluntarily trained by western forces feeling "insulted" and they would try to enact retribution to restore their "honor". This is why there were so many "Green-on-Blue" attacks. It wasn't Taliban sympathisers or infiltrators, it was little Ahmed getting pissy that experienced soldiers were unimpressed by their shitty marksmanship scores.
Because of all the Green-on-Blue attacks, the number of handguns being issued as personal defense weapons whilst on bases with Afghans was increased dramatically. A large stockpile of handguns is being retained in case western forces end up in another country with a similar local culture (the UK is also buying large numbers of Glock 17's for the same reason)
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u/Princess_Actual The Voice of the Free World Jul 29 '25
I'm pissed because I love how it feels in my hands, and how accurate it is, especially on the draw.
But thing is an unsafe piece of shit that I would never carry.
'Course, I'm a weapons collector so I have a GI M1911 and an M9.
Might have to get a civilian M9A3.