r/PS4 • u/cristi1990an cristi1990anRO • Sep 01 '18

[Video] [Video] BioWare Makes Fun of Marvel's Spider-Man's "PuddleGate" Controversy

https://youtu.be/yQph-_imtDY
2.3k Upvotes

92% Upvoted

850 comments sorted by

View all comments

144

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '18

I'm going to be blunt. Graphics were down graded. Not by enough to ruin game play but it's noticable and it wasn't just puddles. When they showed this at E3 I knew the PS4 wasn't going to be able to run it. Just like I'm calling with Final Fantasy VII remake. Gamers really shouldn't care about a small down grade in graphics. I'm not even on the Sony band wagon and I can tell this is going to be a very good game.

34

u/Okichah Sep 02 '18

Of course the graphics are downgraded.

When you run an alpha build you get to use a dev computer with the horsepower of God almighty himself just to get the fucking thing to run a non-optimized specialized vertical slice of the game.

Theres Zero chance that version will become the final version. Because thats how development works. You dont know what the final version will be. You cant know.

Its not like the final stages of development are adding levels and adding little details to webshooter effects. No. Its a mad dash for bug fixes and compromises. And one of those compromises is going to be graphic fidelity.

Ask for honesty. Not time travel.

-14

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '18

[deleted]

2

u/SculpX arsha-veen Sep 02 '18

Really? Smh... 😑

-8

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '18

[deleted]

6

u/SculpX arsha-veen Sep 02 '18

Really? Lol, or is it sheep like you gets bothered with things like this?

-9

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '18

[deleted]

4

u/SculpX arsha-veen Sep 02 '18

Well, sorry for being bothered by someone explaining the actual stage of game development.

0

u/BBQ_suace Sep 02 '18

Again that is no excuse. If they are not sure whether the ps4 could handle the demo they have shown or not then they should have played it safe and not show it at all. Do tell me how come Rockstar, naughty dog, EA studios and most first party sony studios never downgrade their games? I can tell you why, it is because they are conservative and only show footage that is actually running on the paltform they are releasing it for and they only show it when they are 100% sure it is going to look and play that way on release. I am not saying that the game is shit just because of the downgrade, far from that, all I am saying is that it is unfair and us the people should not go on defending these practices.

4

u/SculpX arsha-veen Sep 02 '18

First of all, we are not "defending" this in any form, you are assuming that because you are over-reacting to something like this. As someone on this thread has mentioned - this is exactly why CDPR are delaying their gameplay trailer for Cyberpunk for months (they could have shown it at E3), because this kind of thing happened with The Witcher 3. Now, the only thing that they're at fault is they didn't put on the video "finalized gameplay graphics might differ" or something like that. But sure, go ahead & make a big deal out of this.

→ More replies (0)

43

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '18 edited Nov 06 '20

[deleted]

19

u/xStaabOnMyKnobx xStaabOnMyKnobx Sep 02 '18

Wouldn't you say it's more like studios over promise on their trailers with e3? They want movie quality renders of cutscenes and sometimes they hide what's the game and what is cutscene

5

u/OscarRoro Sep 02 '18

Okay, so the solution will be to not show any gameplay ever again until the game is released, right? They cannot "lieee" to us that way, pretty smart eh.

1

u/xStaabOnMyKnobx xStaabOnMyKnobx Sep 02 '18

What a stupid thing to say. You try and appear helpful but your comment is only spiteful. How about show the product you intend to sell and not some fancied up production. Insomniac are not the only culprits.

1

u/OscarRoro Sep 02 '18

Sorry if I was being spiteful but it takes time to control the tone of a sentence when you're learning a new language, I'm really sorry.

How about show the product you intend to sell and not some fancied up production.

Well the thing is, the product's not finished. That's why you have all those "PRE-ALPHA BUILD", " DEVELOPMENT IN PROGRESS ", " WHAT YOU SEE MAY CHANGE UPON RELEASE" messages on all this kind of videos no matter the game. And it's because of the reaction of some even after reading those messages that CD Project decide to reminded everyone that things may and will change during their new trailer.

6

u/Eddyoshi Eddyoshi4 Sep 02 '18

halo 2

Its ironic you mention halo 2 and then say its not false advertising when Halo 2 is a prime example OF fake advertising, since when they first showed off the trailer, there was a bit where someone full on said "This is going to be real gameplay, not any of that pre-render smoke and mirrors stuff"...when in actuality that is EXACTLY what it was, the game wasnt even playable and they were marketing it like that was the final game.

-3

u/Guyote_ Guyote__ Sep 02 '18

in no way false advertising

How is it not?

25

u/Maximelene Sep 02 '18

Because it's a work product that is never advertised as being exactly what you will buy at release.

-13

u/Guyote_ Guyote__ Sep 02 '18

But they’re taking pre-orders while showing that off.

13

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '18

Wait...doesn't pre alpha footage ways say something in the effects of "work of progress might not represent final product." You should NEVER take any pre alpha footage to heart. Every game company has done this over the years. Every one. All those games at E3 will probably not look like that when they are released unless they are pushed back and come out next generation. But honestly...should you care as long as it's a great game?

12

u/Maximelene Sep 02 '18 edited Sep 02 '18

Which doesn't change anything to the fact that the images they're showing are not definitive. Which is also why you shouldn't preorder.

-15

u/maniek1188 Sep 02 '18

Of course it is false advertising. I bet that if this game was published by EA or Ubisoft there would be universal uproar, but since its "good guys" Insomniac people prefer to get angry with others pointing that out. Hypocrites, hypocrites everywhere.

12

u/Maximelene Sep 02 '18

Hypocrisy is seeing work in progress footage, assume that's how the game will look like at release (without anything supporting it), then getting angry with them because of your own baseless assumptions.

And yes, it works the same for every publisher. The outrage about Watch Dogs downgrade was idiotic. People need to start understanding the concept of "work in progress", and how development works. Or, at least, don't complain about things they don't understand.

-9

u/maniek1188 Sep 02 '18

No - that's not how it works. You do understand what happened with Alien Colonial marines? They got sued for their visual downgrade. Lets not make light of blatant false advertising. There is very simple fix for this - don't allow preorders till game goes gold. Then there would be no more overpromising materials trying to gather as much preorders while showcasing effects impossible to obtain in final product. People do not have to be experts on game development to buy games - thats how it works in every fucking industry when you buy product. So stop defending blatant anti-consumer practices and start to stand your ground. Fucking fanboys. Jesus.

10

u/Maximelene Sep 02 '18

Yes, that's how it works. You should read about that lawsuit. It revolves around the fact that the images shown were advertised as "actual gameplay", which is exactly what I'm talking about, and is something that Insomniac didn't do. You're actually supporting my point here.

And you don't HAVE to know anything about development to understand that images shown months before release are not final. That's called common sense. The only "anti consumer practice" here is the one you force on yourself.

By the way, you're the only agressive person here. Stop calling people "fanboys" simply because they disagree with you, and try to be reasonable.

1

u/jordanlund GlobalPhreak Sep 02 '18

If you can find the collectors edition of Halo 2, watch the behind the scenes DVD that came with it. That E3 demo was a travesty and they knew it.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '18

My point is people are complaining that downgrades are a new thing used by companies for sales purposes when it simply isn’t the case, things change and visions have to be scaled back to fit on a console, the fact people are mad at puddles makes me question what goes through their minds

1

u/jordanlund GlobalPhreak Sep 02 '18

Oh, it's absolutely not new. Penny Arcade defined it in 2005 as a "Bullshot". Combination of bullshit and screenshot.

https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/09/12/potent-new-lingo

-8

u/codyad7 Sep 02 '18

Well you got one thing right, it may be standard but it’s still false advertising. If the system it’s being sold on can’t look that good, don’t advertise it as such. It may not be the biggest deal but it is purposefully misleading.

5

u/Maximelene Sep 02 '18

But they never "advertised it as such". They never said that's how the game would look like on release date. When you show "work in progress", that's by definition not final.

-2

u/nikktheconqueerer Sep 02 '18

Even back when halo 2 was shown it was massively downgraded

That's actually because the game wasn't ready and they were scrambling to put together an e3 trailer. Gaming PCs and home consoles back then were pretty equal in performance.

Digital Foundry did a really interesting video on the Halo 2 e3 trailer actually

-1

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '18

Halo 2 is a bad example, that got cucked hard from the demo they first showed and it wasnt down to intentionally screwing people.

-2

u/TheBrokenNinja The2Broken2Ninja Sep 02 '18

How is it in no way falsee advertising when they're literally advertising the game as something it's not. People just give Marvel shit a pass cause there's so many fan boys.

-7

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '18

90%? I can’t remember a game being downgraded this year aside spiderman

15

u/falconbox falconbox Sep 02 '18

EXACTLY. I don't necessarily care that much, since I've seen far worse downgrades (Dark Souls 2 for example), and the gameplay still looks great to me, but people are in denial or something.

Here's a different scene that shows it better IMO. Someone tell me with a straight face that this 2018 scene looks better than what we saw in 2016:

https://gfycat.com/FairWeeklyDodo

36

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '18 edited Sep 02 '18

I'll tell you this with a straight face. The 2018 picture is using a different shader and blurred altitude effects. Probably to cut down in rendering with PS4. That's my take in it any way. Regardless, it will be fine.

13

u/falconbox falconbox Sep 02 '18

The 2018 picture is using a different shader and blurred attitude effects. Probably to cut down in rendering with PS4. That's my take in it any way.

All things most likely true. For example you see a lot more detail at a distance in 2016 (the trees, cars, etc) while 2018 uses a depth of field blur to most likely reduce the strain on the hardware.

I know limitations need to be put in place, but that's why I'm a little annoyed in the first place. They showed us stuff 2 years ago that even at the time I thought "no way is the final game going to look like that."

7

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '18 edited Sep 02 '18

[deleted]

1

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '18

Top Ten Greatest Anime Plot Twists

5

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '18

The words "honey dicking" come to mind

1

u/Saithir Sep 02 '18

Every texture on that roof and removed pipe+smoke, that's also "different shader and depth of field blur to hide things in the distance", too?

1

u/Rocky323 Sep 02 '18

It looks like it's at different times of the day, and you're trying to ignore that.

1

u/Gaarando Sep 02 '18

Different lighting. The 2018 footage is like mid-day where there's not a lot of sun going on. In the 2016 footage it seems like later in the day, sun is soon about to go down.

That's why the lighting on the suit is so different as well.

Surprised that the 2018 building on the right is changed though. Seems like a strange change to make but maybe they really wanted some variety but outside of that I can't see the downgrade. I can see the difference in lighting though.

Someone can come here and show comparisons in GTA V for example of the same exact place but different lighting and trust me one picture is gonna look worse depending on what lighting you prefer.

1

u/jordanlund GlobalPhreak Sep 02 '18

Different lighting blurs the background and removes almost all vehicles from the street? Who's running the lights? Thanos? LOL.

"Hey, maybe if we replace the traffic with a couple of birds nobody will notice! High five! We'll blame the lighting!"

2

u/PraiseTheSun1997 Sep 02 '18

Traffic is still in the game. Just because it's not showcased in that particular scene doesn't mean it's just been removed.

1

u/jordanlund GlobalPhreak Sep 02 '18

This is an example of what they sold vs. what they delivered. If they changed this, what else did they change?

1

u/PraiseTheSun1997 Sep 02 '18

Changed what? The traffic is still in the game. You do know that cars move right?

1

u/jordanlund GlobalPhreak Sep 02 '18

Not in the 2018 shot they don't. They have to be present to move.

You have a street arrangement like this:

\|

In the E3 shot, the | street is populated with moving cars, you can see them filling the block with a truck at the next intersection down. In the 2018 shot it's barren, blurred and covered with some flying birds.

The traffic on the \ street is stopped at a stoplight because | is in motion. Multiple lanes of cars waiting to go changes to a couple of cars parked by the curb.

It's a pretty severe dumbing down of objects and complexity and saying "well, the lighting changed" doesn't explain it.

2

u/PraiseTheSun1997 Sep 02 '18 edited Sep 02 '18

LMAO no they don't.

The cars aren't there because they are moving elsewhere on the map. It's called a dynamic world. The streets are still populated with moving cars. Stop nitpicking already. You look pathetic

1

u/jordanlund GlobalPhreak Sep 02 '18

It's the exact same scripted backflip from the exact same angle, this is not an example of how detailed the traffic patterns are.

→ More replies (0)

2

u/Gaarando Sep 02 '18

The blur is new but I wouldn't say that's a downgrade? Also the cars just happened to not be there. Do you think such a big world will just have no cars in it? Of course it will. I mean the comparison also showed in 2018 there were birds right as he jumped.

And even houses and stuff were changed. But there's a clear lighting difference in the comparison which makes it a terrible comparison to make.

1

u/Tyler-Walter Sep 02 '18

2016: better draw distance, more details, look at that ledge

2018: too blurry, too vibrant

0

u/deknalis deknalis Sep 02 '18

The 2018 looks way better in that. The color palette is nicer and more diverse.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '18

[removed] — view removed comment

-2

u/deknalis deknalis Sep 02 '18

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maJFka6Rx68

There's still a lot of cars, just not in that particular shot. Also even the color palette difference looks like it was just because of time of day. The only difference I can honestly see is that his suit looks less plasticky, which I think is a definite improvement.

2

u/Casual_ADHD Sep 02 '18

Wait, so this controversy actually gained momentum? Thought it was a nothing burger

12

u/hablagated Sep 02 '18

The shininess was removed his suit to make it look realistic

-14

u/AS14K Sep 02 '18

Nope

15

u/hablagated Sep 02 '18

...yes?

-13

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '18 edited Sep 02 '18

[deleted]

1

u/Gaarando Sep 02 '18

Different lighting.. Why are people comparing screenshots together with places that clearly have different lighting. You know that you can make comparisons when Spider-Man releases of the same spot but taken at a different time of day based on the mission you're playing and find out that even in the release you can make screenshots where one looks worse because not every lighting looks as good.

For example I love how games look when it rains and is mostly superior to other types of looks during gameplay. It's like comparison Driveclub screenshots with all the different day cycles they got and compare sunny to cloudy or sunny to rainy. All of these are different. Driveclub lighting is actually high level but you could still make comparisons at different times of day and notice that one looks better.

-13

u/AS14K Sep 02 '18

The graphics are still great. Blindly insisting that they're as good as the original trailer doesn't help your case. The game is still going to be amazing, you're gonna be alright.

13

u/hablagated Sep 02 '18

I said the suit was less shiny

-6

u/AS14K Sep 02 '18

Sure, but not because it's more realistic, but because real time reflections in lighting are extremely costly in terms of processing power

7

u/Toeee Sep 02 '18

Actually specular reflections like the one on his suit are quite cheap to render. Sharp reflections such as those seen on glass or water on the other hand are moderately expensive depending on the method used. I would guess the suit change is more likely art driven than performance related.

Also, not to belabor the point, but games don't generally use "real time reflections" at least not until now with Nvidias new ray-tracing tech. Instead they use pre-calcuated approximations such as cube maps, or real time approximations such as screen space refections or planar reflections. The first two being fairly cheap, the third being very expensive and thus less common.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '18

The fact that people are still calling it downgraded is downright stupid

-1

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '18

Call it how you want. It IS graphically downgraded from previously released footage. If anything you should be throwing a bitch fit for the people that are bashing it just because it is what it is..and not for what it's going to be. I'm a Nintendo fan boy and I see this game getting 9s and 10s all across the board.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '18

It didn't get downgraded, there are still tons of puddles in other gameplay videos with reflections, Spiderman's suit was changed because it was too shiny (no fabric shines like that) and there are more details in the new version in other videos. Even someone from digital foundry said this whole fiasco is incredibly stupid because people don't understand lighting changes

1

u/Redpeg1 Redpeg11 Sep 02 '18

How’d you doubt that he PS4 wouldn’t be able to run it when better looking games are on the PS4 like UC4, GoW , and Horizon lol so now we’re 100% getting a downgrade on the last of us 2 & Ghost of Tsushima ?

1

u/NeverTopComment Sep 02 '18

If gamers shouldn't care, why make this comment stating graphics were downgraded. You don't even know that's true. For all we know they could have reduced some in places because they needed the memory to put something else in close by.

-6

u/Jeromechillin Sep 02 '18

What I don't understand is how do you down grade a game that was exclusively made for one platform? I'll save judgement until release because they said there is a day one patch. But to say that a PS4 can't run the same game we saw at E3 is a stretch. If Horizon zero Dawn, and Infamous look just as good I can't see how can they down grade this game.

2

u/theunspillablebeans Sep 02 '18

Dev kits are way more powerful than consumer units.

1

u/Jeromechillin Sep 02 '18

That doesn't makes sense. Why would a Dev kit be more powerful than the consumer unit?

6

u/J03daSchm0 Sep 02 '18

Dev kits are more powerful so that developers can run earlier, unoptimized versions of the game. The reason games can actually perform and look very good on these 2013 consoles is due to optimization.

2

u/theunspillablebeans Sep 02 '18

Device kits are more powerful to give developers to for debugging and optimization. An optimised game on a device kits will look way better than a standard console.

For example, the Xbox One X Dev kit comes with 24Gb of RAM. Double that of the retail version.

-2

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '18

It can't. The PS4 is what? 5 years old? It can only push so much out and with Spider-Man it needed to be trimmed so it would run porperly. They have been doing this for years now. Ever seen a ps2 or ps1 game on the back of a box or a trailer on TV but when you get it you wonder why it don't look like that? It's because they're pushing boundaries with software that the system can't push out. It's common but people are now starting to notice it more. If you look at the footage you can tell with all that's going on the PS4 wouldn't be able to push that out.

1

u/ShortJonSnow Sep 02 '18

I don't really care about it either, I just find it funny that when it's a game made by EA or Ubisoft the downgrades are complained about all the same, yet no one cares to defend the downgrades and the developers are deemed the scum of the earth one here.

Then there's this game where people are actually being reasonable about it and defending the downgrades like we should be,.seeing as they make sense from a technical standpoint.

Remember Watchdogs? People flip their standpoints like a coin on here..

1

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '18

The only time I threw a fit over graphics was on Xenoblade 3D. When it comes to systems I don't care how polished something is. Does it look presentable? Does it play well? Alright we have a good game. People are becoming more picky and biased as years go by.

1

u/ShortJonSnow Sep 02 '18

Especially since we're talking about console games here, anything that looks really good is a treat, but expecting the consoles to push insane high end PC level graphics, is setting yourself up for disappointment.

Just be thankful for what we get. Who plays console games for the graphics anyway?

1

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '18

A lot of people and that's ok to want decent graphics out of a game but when gamers act entitled to want a next gen experience out of current gen hardware they are asking for too much. Spider-Man is down graded. It's already pushing limitations from PS4 hardware being down graded. People need to get over it.

1

u/ShortJonSnow Sep 02 '18

I think part of it may be that people are expecting games to look the same on their consoles as what high end PC's can push, but failing to realize that the console hardware have it's limitations.

So when things like lighting, anti aliasing, shadows, view distance and so forth gets turned down, people get outraged even though it makes total sense.

1

u/Gaarando Sep 02 '18

To be fair. Some people showed Spider-Man comparisons that helped their argument (downgraded) even though lighting is different in the comparisons. While others have shown comparisons that made current Spider-Man look better. Regardless the fact that that can happen it shows even if it truly is downgraded, the differences aren't that huge if you'd take it in the same lighting.

Whereas Ubisoft downgrades are insane. It's actually totally different so much stuff gets worse. There's an entire video made about Ubisoft downgrades that just shows how much worse their games got.

1

u/maniek1188 Sep 02 '18

While others have shown comparisons that made current Spider-Man look better.

Please link that.

And what you are saying could be replaced with "I am hypocrite". If its bad when Ubisoft is doing it, it sure as hell is still bad when Insomniac is doing it - especially since they are lying their teeths out by claiming that there were no downgrade at all.

1

u/Gaarando Sep 02 '18

No, there are levels to it. I'm not against downgrading that's why I didn't shit talk The Witcher 3. I hate it when downgrades are that big. Watch Dogs got me hyped as fuck. I love rain in video games more than anything when it comes to graphics. So seeing him walk around in the rain and then causing a crash? Absolutely fuckin' insane. Then the game comes out and that crash wasn't even in the game anymore and graphically it was so much worse in every way. Explosion quality was so much worse as well. So they show off their game with all these things that do not end up in the final game.

The Witcher 3 downgrade was significant but it still kept the overall feel of the game just in worse graphics. And Spider-Man looks almost the exact same.

0

u/Rocky323 Sep 02 '18

Graphics were down graded

Nope. That's been debunked by multiple people already.

-1

u/Robo- Sep 02 '18

Basically my thoughts.

Yes, the visuals were absolutely downgraded a smidge, probably to hit or maintain stable performance. The development wind down generally goes one of two ways, especially with open-world games like this given their unpredictable nature at the scale we're talking. Either they discover better ways to optimize things and squeeze even more out of their engine/the hardware, or they find several weak points in the game's performance in final playthroughs and tweak/downgrade things to hit their mark.

This seems to be the latter. And it's fine, because the game still looks fantastic. Within spitting distance of the early renders and footage. It isn't like they pulled an Ubisoft here, releasing something that doesn't even seem to be in the same generation as their initial footage.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '18

I keep seeing Ubisoft and I am amazed no one has pulled a Sega Alien Colonial Marines out if thier ass yet.